Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

[reformed1689]

Take your pick. It is all he knows.

I don't get my doctrine from Calvin. You are a liar and have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[reformed1689]

My apologies to @CharismaticLady it was not she that said she travelled back to the crucifixion. I found the quote. Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions

Please accept my apology!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Truth doesn't change.

He thought he really had you listening to him, then he saw you fall back on truth instead? Lol!!!

 

[amadeus]

Truth doesn't change.

That is correct, but recall what Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of God:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

There is a "face to face" coming to those who are growing, but anyone not growing will be like the Dead Sea incapable of supporting Life.

 

[reformed1689]

That is correct, but recall what Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of God:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

There is a "face to face" coming to those who are growing, but anyone not growing will be like the Dead Sea incapable of supporting Life.

You focus entirely too much on that verse in isolation.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Too subjective. And plus, now, you seem to be talking about being sinless in a figurative sense. We've established that already, the faithful are entirely forgiven for their sins. But, they still sin in practice. Are we going in circles now?

Look at 1 John 5:16-17. There are sins unto death and sin NOT unto death. The difference is our will. Those who willfully sin against God knowing they are a sin, commit sins unto death. It is rebellion against God. Those sins are called sins of lawlessness. 1 John 3:4. Jesus took away that type of sin out of our nature when we became born again. The other type of sin are called unintentional sins. They are not willfully committed. In the Old Testament trespasses are mentioned as such in Leviticus 5:15. They are also the only type of the two that is mentioned in our Lord's Prayer. And the following verse in Matthew 6 tells you how those sins are automatically forgiven us. It is by our forgiving each other trespasses committed against us.

Therefore

lawlessness is taken out of our nature = 0 sins
trespasses are forgiven as we forgive = 0 sins

Sinless. But that doesn't make us perfect. Love needs to be perfected in us to be perfect.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Well, I pray each night also for wisdom, insight, and many other things. But, again, these request require a great deal of humility and faith, of which, I have extremely little of both. Are you claiming otherwise about yourself, or that my initial predicate is incorrect, that faith and humility are required to receive assistance from God?

James 1:5-6
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

I'm 72 and have been doing this for so long with instant results that I have no doubt.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Never claimed such Heresy you disgraceful woman.

Your beliefs are straight from the Reformation - the dead doctrines.

 

[DNB]

"...they still sin in practice" except for any who have already overcome the world as did Jesus... Are there none? Who knowing not the hearts of every man would say it? The only thing which stops any believer from doing it is the man himself. This is man choosing to limit God... as he too often still does:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel" Psalm 78:41

No one is sinless, and this includes thoughts and actions, and sins of omission, ...not acting upon something when required.

 

[DNB]

Look at 1 John 5:16-17. There are sins unto death and sin NOT unto death. The difference is our will. Those who willfully sin against God knowing they are a sin, commit sins unto death. It is rebellion against God. Those sins are called sins of lawlessness. 1 John 3:4. Jesus took away that type of sin out of our nature when we became born again. The other type of sin are called unintentional sins. They are not willfully committed. In the Old Testament trespasses are mentioned as such in Leviticus 5:15. They are also the only type of the two that is mentioned in our Lord's Prayer. And the following verse in Matthew 6 tells you how those sins are automatically forgiven us. It is by our forgiving each other trespasses committed against us.

Therefore

lawlessness is taken out of our nature = 0 sins
trespasses are forgiven as we forgive = 0 sins

Sinless. But that doesn't make us perfect. Love needs to be perfected in us to be perfect.

no one is sinless, you're speaking in theory, and ideally. Look around you, and look at yourself. Every though that has passed through your head is without reproach?

 

[DNB]

James 1:5-6
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

I'm 72 and have been doing this for so long with instant results that I have no doubt.

Well, you must be of exceptional faith? I highly doubt it CL, you have some very strange views on very many things. I can't see your position as coming from humility, integrity and soundness.

 

[amadeus]

No one is sinless, and this includes thoughts and actions, and sins of omission, ...not acting upon something when required.

Why do you presume that your man's deductions and conclusions are binding on God?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

When does this occur, this seeing Him as He is, this "face to face" vision? Would you limit God by they saying the He working in a surrendered vessel cannot bring that person to a sinless state?

"... According to your faith be it unto you."

"Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?..."

If rather than faith that God can, we have faith that He cannot, have we not already limited God?

Help us dear Lord!

 

[prism]

But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was.

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
(Gal 5:17)

But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh,

There is no such thing as 'born again flesh'...we are told to crucify it. (Rom 8:13)

Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.

LOL, is being born again a process?

 

[amadeus]

Never claimed such Heresy you disgraceful woman.

Were you anointed by the Holy Spirit when you spoke those words against @CharismaticLady ? Did God also allow you to see all of her heart when you spoke those words? If your answer is, no, why would not these words of Jesus be applied against you?

"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." Matt 7:1-5

 

[DNB]

Why do you presume that your man's deductions and conclusions are binding on God?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

When does this occur, this seeing Him as He is, this "face to face" vision? Would you limit God by they saying the He working in a surrendered vessel cannot bring that person to a sinless state?

"... According to your faith be it unto you."

"Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?..."

If rather than faith that God can, we have faith that He cannot, have we not already limited God?

Help us dear Lord!

Grace is not grace if there's works. If i were sinless, where does my faith lie, in myself, or the grace of Christ?
I strive for perfection, but would never in a million years insult God by saying that I've attained to His image fully.

 

[CharismaticLady]

no one is sinless, you're speaking in theory, and ideally. Look around you, and look at yourself. Every though that has passed through your head is without reproach?

We can be if you believe that when you forgive others and hold nothing against anyone, that the Father will forgive all your trespasses that you may not even be aware of, isn't that sinless? Committing any of the sins of the flesh in the 10C or in Galatians 5:19-21 is just not in my nature, so I wouldn't be committing any of them, so 0 + 0 = 0.

Friend look at 1 John 3:21-24, but especially 21. Can you go to bed each night with a clear conscience? If I can, you can. That is all it takes, plus loving your brethren enough to forgive them their slights. Jesus said "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." By giving us a new nature and supplying us with the powerful Holy Spirit to guide us away from sin, it is easy.

Read the letters to the seven churches in Revelation chapters two and three. There is a common word in each - overcome. This life is our proving ground. And Revelation 22:11 shows that only those who are righteous and holy will be in heaven. That means before we die. Because without holiness, no one will see God. Hebrews 12:14.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Grace is not grace if there's works. If i were sinless, where does my faith lie, in myself, or the grace of Christ?
I strive for perfection, but would never in a million years insult God by saying that I've attained to His image fully.

I know you are doing some self study, but let me share some things with you. We've been taught that grace is unmerited favor. Sounds like something from the Reformation. But it is actually just favor. There are Semitic (Hebrew) writing styles that all the apostles, being Jewish, used. One is parallelisms. Another is contrasts. But Acts 4:33 shows an excellent example of a parallelism that will clarify once and for all what grace means.

And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.
And great grace was upon them all.

This means that grace is the power of God given to us to become like Christ.

2 Peter 1:2-4
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Works is another subject that needs clarification. Seeing as scripture says our righteousness is as filthy rags, then that means that our keeping rules in our own strength is the same. Those are the "not by works" that they are talking about. That is why the New Covenant is all about the power of the SPIRIT. Works done through the power of the Spirit are holy. See the difference. In Galatians, the works Paul was talking about there were because of the Judaizers coming to the Galatian Gentiles and telling them they had to follow the Mosaic laws of circumcision to be saved. That is a work of the flesh, not of the Spirit. The letter kills, the Spirit gives life.

 

[Dcopymope]

Grace is not grace if there's works. If i were sinless, where does my faith lie, in myself, or the grace of Christ?
I strive for perfection, but would never in a million years insult God by saying that I've attained to His image fully.

If I was God, I certainly would be offended that a worm claims to have attained my holy image.

(Job 25:1-6) "Then answered Bildad the Shuhite, and said, {2} Dominion and fear are with him, he maketh peace in his high places. {3} Is there any number of his armies? and upon whom doth not his light arise? {4} How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? {5} Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. {6} How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?"

 

[DNB]

We can be if you believe that when you forgive others and hold nothing against anyone, that the Father will forgive all your trespasses that you may not even be aware of, isn't that sinless? Committing any of the sins of the flesh in the 10C or in Galatians 5:19-21 is just not in my nature, so I wouldn't be committing any of them, so 0 + 0 = 0.

Friend look at 1 John 3:21-24, but especially 21. Can you go to bed each night with a clear conscience? If I can, you can. That is all it takes, plus loving your brethren enough to forgive them their slights. Jesus said "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." By giving us a new nature and supplying us with the powerful Holy Spirit to guide us away from sin, it is easy.

Read the letters to the seven churches in Revelation chapters two and three. There is a common word in each - overcome. This life is our proving ground. And Revelation 22:11 shows that only those who are righteous and holy will be in heaven. That means before we die. Because without holiness, no one will see God. Hebrews 12:14.

1 John 1:8-10
1:8. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[DNB]

I know you are doing some self study, but let me share some things with you. We've been taught that grace is unmerited favor. Sounds like something from the Reformation. But it is actually just favor. There are Semitic (Hebrew) writing styles that all the apostles, being Jewish, used. One is parallelisms. Another is contrasts. But Acts 4:33 shows an excellent example of a parallelism that will clarify once and for all what grace means.

And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.
And great grace was upon them all.

This means that grace is the power of God given to us to become like Christ.

2 Peter 1:2-4
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Works is another subject that needs clarification. Seeing as scripture says our righteousness is as filthy rags, then that means that our keeping rules in our own strength is the same. Those are the "not by works" that they are talking about. That is why the New Covenant is all about the power of the SPIRIT. Works done through the power of the Spirit are holy. See the difference. In Galatians, the works Paul was talking about there were because of the Judaizers coming to the Galatian Gentiles and telling them they had to follow the Mosaic laws of circumcision to be saved. That is a work of the flesh, not of the Spirit. The letter kills, the Spirit gives life.

Faith vs Works is based on elementary reasoning. A 12 year old knows the principles behind each, and how one is antithetical to the other.
I've always said that whenever one has to research the etymology of a word, they've entirely missed the point behind Scripture's emphasis. God's Word is never determined over a single word or expression. The over-arching principle is always clear.
Man is a sinner, and is never regenerated until the inauguration of the New Heaven.