Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

[Paul Christensen]

Well it is debatable as to whether or not the gift actually exists as a prayer language since Scripture doesn't describe it that way. I'll stick with Scripture.

Great. You do that. 1 Corinthians 14 is there, and the Holy Spirit said it through Paul, and I believe it, so nothing will alter that.

 

[Paul Christensen]

And since Scripture says there must be an interpreter you should care.

I am not answerable to you, especially when you don't believe what 1 Corinthians 14 says about it. Actually I can manifest the gift of interpretation of tongues, so if someone does speak in tongues to me, there is an interpreter present - me.

 

[reformed1689]

Nothing in that text says the Father gave Christ grace. Your argument is silly.

Yeah, scratching my head on that one. But it falls in line with other interpretations she has given....

 

[reformed1689]

Great. You do that. 1 Corinthians 14 is there, and the Holy Spirit said it through Paul, and I believe it, so nothing will alter that.

Oh, I never doubted the gift of tongues. Nope. But it doesn't talk about tongues being a private prayer language.

 

[reformed1689]

I am not answerable to you, especially when you don't believe what 1 Corinthians 14 says about it. Actually I can manifest the gift of interpretation of tongues, so if someone does speak in tongues to me, there is an interpreter present - me.

Who said I don't believe 1 Cor. 14? Show me where I have said that. What part of 1 Cor. 14 do I not believe?

 

[Dcopymope]

Oh, I never doubted the gift of tongues. Nope. But it doesn't talk about tongues being a private prayer language.

As far I can see, speaking in tongues is just you speaking a foreign language you never understood, as a testament to others who do speak it. Its not some mystery magic gibberish like people claim it to be. The only person that actually will speak a language no one will understand, is the second beast in revelation, who speaks as a "dragon". Do you know of anyone who speaks "dragon"? I sure as hell don't.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Oh, I never doubted the gift of tongues. Nope. But it doesn't talk about tongues being a private prayer language.

You need to carefully read 1 Corinthians 14:2.
If the Holy Spirit through Paul says that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God mysteries in the Spirit, but not in church, then it must be spoken somewhere else, and if it is to God, then what did Jesus say about praying in private so that prayers in secret He can reward openly?
And where it says that Paul speaks in tongues more than them all but in the church he would rather prophesy.
So, if he speaks in tongues more than them all, but not in the church, where else does he speak it?

I think that Cessationist brainwashing causes folks to read into literal text what they want to see rather than what is actually there, and principles of comprehension 101 that is taught to 10 year olds in elementary school go out the window.

 

[reformed1689]

As far I can see, speaking in tongues is just you speaking a foreign language you never understood.

That is how it is with all examples in Scripture, yes. The charismatic crowd likes to look at chapter 13 and say "see tongues of angels" and say it is a heavenly prayer language. Or look at Romans with the Holy Spirit utterances that we cannot comprehend etc etc. But they take those out of context.

 

[reformed1689]

You need to carefully read 1 Corinthians 14:2.
If the Holy Spirit through Paul says that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God mysteries in the Spirit, but not in church, then it must be spoken somewhere else, and if it is to God, then what did Jesus say about praying in private so that prayers in secret He can reward openly?
And where it says that Paul speaks in tongues more than them all but in the church he would rather prophesy.
So, if he speaks in tongues more than them all, but not in the church, where else does he speak it?

I think that Cessationist brainwashing causes folks to read into literal text what they want to see rather than what is actually there, and principles of comprehension 101 that is taught to 10 year olds in elementary school go out the window.

speaks not to men but to God … utters mysteries. This verse (cf. v. 14) describes the gift of tongues in a way that seems inconsistent with the gift of speaking in foreign languages mentioned in Acts 2:4–11 (although some believe that the miracle on Pentecost was a miracle of hearing). Accordingly, many argue that Paul is dealing with something different—a kind of ecstatic speech used for intimate prayer (Rom. 8:26). However, the word translated “tongue” is the normal Gk. term for “language.” Second, Paul uses the term “mysteries” to indicate a divine truth not yet disclosed. The word does not have the meaning of the English word “mysterious” (2:7 note). Third, vv. 10, 11, as well as v. 21, support the idea that even here Paul is speaking of human languages (12:8–10 note). (RSB 2015)

 

[Dcopymope]

That is how it is with all examples in Scripture, yes. The charismatic crowd likes to look at chapter 13 and say "see tongues of angels" and say it is a heavenly prayer language. Or look at Romans with the Holy Spirit utterances that we cannot comprehend etc etc. But they take those out of context.

Right, when I see people in these churches running around, flopping on the ground like buffoons speaking gibberish, I just roll my eyes. There is nothing about it that is edifying, and for all we know they could be blaspheming God. It is NOT a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and if anything its a set up for the second beast that speaks "dragon", his own magic gibberish.

 

[DNB]

Who made you her judge? Consider the wisdom of Jesus here

So then don't say that you have. I am not asking you to do so, but leave the judgment of others where it belongs, which is not to you, is it?

"Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." John 21:21-22


God has certainly given us the means to accomplish that which for each us alone as a man of flesh would indeed be impossible: Ministers as per Eph 4:11ff, the written Scriptures, the Holy Spirit... and any gifts and/or abilities He has provided us along with any additional needed help available for the asking. Did He provide all of these things for naught?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7
The exception I have see to this verse would be if we were to ask amiss as per James 4:3. The only thing that limits God's work in u us is us!

Are we better than all of the OT people who died when they did not work the work put before them by God? Is God a respecter persons?

Who is to say that no person can accomplish, or has not accomplished this thing or that thing prior to having the dirt thrown over his face at the end of his allotted time here? Jesus certainly did it prior to Calvary as we see here:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Jesus overcame all that stood between his tempted flesh and God. He did it before he was crucified. By the power of God in us, if we allow it, can God not do the same? He can! If He does not, the limiter is not Him, but again, us!

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

CL Is a sinner, and she's worse than me, ..at least I admit it. Yes, I am so judging!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Who said I don't believe 1 Cor. 14? Show me where I have said that. What part of 1 Cor. 14 do I not believe?

Calm down... Don't get into a tizzy! :)
I'm not trying to be contentious about it. I am just directing you to a closer examination of the actual text that the Holy Spirit has put in the chapter. What is needed is to put aside any teaching that has been drummed into you about tongues, and just look at the text itself and use simple comprehension and logic. Paul spoke in tongues more than them all, but never in church - so, put your thinking cap on and think about where he spoke it! If according to verse 2, where he says that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God, and he doesn't speak it in church, where else would a believer speak to God?

 

[DNB]

I'm a child of God.

Doesn't mean that you don't sin.

 

[DNB]

Why did you commit sins yesterday? Could you name them? If you could, then you must have known they were sins when you committed them. So why if you love Jesus?

Because I don't love Jesus or God, as much as I should.

 

[DNB]

That is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Could be argued.

 

[Paul Christensen]

That is how it is with all examples in Scripture, yes. The charismatic crowd likes to look at chapter 13 and say "see tongues of angels" and say it is a heavenly prayer language. Or look at Romans with the Holy Spirit utterances that we cannot comprehend etc etc. But they take those out of context.

I don't care about Charismatics. I have not been a member of a Charismatic church since 1978!! And I don't care about the quoting of Scripture out of context. In that Scripture he wasn't teaching about tongues at all. He was speaking about the importance of love being the foundation for everything.

I am just looking at the literal text of 1 Corinthians 14 where the Holy Spirit spoke through Paul about the gift of tongues. And He doesn't contradict Himself. 1 Corinthians 14 is the only chapter in the whole Bible where the Holy Spirit gives precise and detailed instructions about the use of tongues in church and in other places. So I just don't care about other verses elsewhere in the Bible that do not deal specifically and clearly with the gift of tongues as 1 Corinthians 14 does.

 

[Cooper]

You do realize that at the time of the writing he also wrote Romans 8:2. Romans 7:14-23 is before the freedom in Christ. Romans 8:2 is after. Romans 7:14-23 is the Old Covenant; we are under the New Covenant of the Spirit.

Recapping.

 

[Dcopymope]

I'm a child of God.

Throwing around buzz words like "child of God", or "son of God" means zilch, doesn't impress anyone. Adam was the first literal human child of God, look how that turned out. The angels in Genesis 6 were "Sons of God", yet they still committed an abomination. Its just words in the end.

 

[Cooper]

Looks like I missed it, sorry.

BTW, I disagree. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
So the Father gave Jesus grace He didn't deserve based on nothing that He did but on the Father who bestowed that grace? What does it mean for a Christian with regards to sin?

The Grace belongs to God and Jesus was the Word i.e. Creator God.
.

 

[Paul Christensen]

speaks not to men but to God … utters mysteries. This verse (cf. v. 14) describes the gift of tongues in a way that seems inconsistent with the gift of speaking in foreign languages mentioned in Acts 2:4–11 (although some believe that the miracle on Pentecost was a miracle of hearing). Accordingly, many argue that Paul is dealing with something different—a kind of ecstatic speech used for intimate prayer (Rom. 8:26). However, the word translated “tongue” is the normal Gk. term for “language.” Second, Paul uses the term “mysteries” to indicate a divine truth not yet disclosed. The word does not have the meaning of the English word “mysterious” (2:7 note). Third, vv. 10, 11, as well as v. 21, support the idea that even here Paul is speaking of human languages (12:8–10 note). (RSB 2015)

The experience in Acts 2 and possibly Cornelius' household (if the languages were understood, which is not stated), are one-off times and serve as signs that the Holy Spirit has now come and is present. I am not including those ones with what the Holy Spirit is saying through Paul, because those ones were not in the church context because there was no organised church at the time for instructions about the use of tongues to be given.

The Holy Spirit's instructions for tongues connected with the church is specified in 1 Corinthians 14, and if He says that "no man understands" a person speaking in tongues, then what is being spoken, according to the Holy Spirit in this case, it not humanly understood language. Here is where unprejudiced comprehension should take priority over man's Cessationist teaching.

If the Holy Spirit wanted us to know that the language spoken in tongues is exclusively humanly understood languages, then He would have be explicit about it. But He wasn't. He clearly said that "no man understands him" when the person is speaking in tongues, therefore it is true from the words of the Holy Spirit Himself that ordinary prayer in tongues ("to God) is not an understood language except by God Himself.

Because God is true and every man is a liar (by comparison), I believe the direct and clear words of the Holy Spirit, over and above any man's evaluation of it.

So you can quote the words of man any time, but I will always take the words of the Holy Spirit as true, and man's word as opinion and not fact.