Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

[reformed1689]

No, that is not how it happens. Again this is what you decided in accord as if you already had that "face to face" vision.

God has been my first love since 1976. I read my Bible and talk to Him daily working toward that "pray without ceasing" and that "rejoice in the Lord always". I pray in an unknown tongue daily and have done so for many years. You may doubt my testimony on this, but remember the word of Gamaliel who in spite of, [to our knowledge], never being a follower of Jesus, was given wisdom by God:

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5:38-39

I could write a book [and have effectively done so] of all the good and often seemingly impossible [as men understand impossible] things God has done for me since I began surrendering to Him so many years ago. My journey has been what some would call a journey of miracles.

People whose tongues are a confused babble are in at least two categories: fakers and babies in the Spirit. As a natural human baby babbles early on so it is with those newly born in Him. Both kind of babies need to learn to speak clearly in their native human language on the one hand and in the Spiritual language God provided on the other.

No, I'm not confused about it or doubt it, I'm just saying it isn't biblical.

 

[Joseph77]

It seems that many of us might think we have sinned yet, not really?

.in your mind, have I sinned here? I'm being serious because, I really do not know!
In Him,
nancy

"in your mind" asking the op is , it seems clear to me, just like asking a priest of babylon, or someone working as a cashier at a grocery store,
or any man , anywhere, for truth that only the Father and Jesus can reveal, as Scripture thru and thru says.
In Scripture, it is written, a lot about sin and sinners. The problem may , yes, be someone "thinks" they sinned when they were just tempted,
but that is revealed by the Father through Jesus when it occurs, as we abide in Jesus, in line with all His Word.
Likewise, in Scripture, on this forum, in the USA, in churches, everywhere,
the problem over-arching is not that people "think" they have sinned because they are tempted to think so,
but rather they indeed and in truth continue living in sin, and think they are not sinning, as revealed by the Father thru Jesus and in line with all Scripture.

 

[DNB]

Perhaps you believe that you know always which ones are "in the faith" [whatever that really means] and that your own understanding of each of those things: redemption, salvation, atonement and emancipation... is unflawed. Myself, knowing that I know less than God consider myself to be as "every man" here:

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written..." Rom 3:4

Anything wherein I am wrong and I speak about it others, as if it were true, is a lie. Then again when I am right, it is of God. God alone always knows right from wrong with regard to anybody!


Really?

Lu 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Lu 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Lu 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.


We, all of us, limit God, each and every time we take hold of the reins to ourselves or allow some devil to take them instead of yielding them to the only One able to correctly direct our steps:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones." Prov 3:5-8

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6


You don't have to believe my testimony, but your opinion ultimately does not matter, nor does mine... when either of us speaks from our carnality. Until the old man is completely and finally dead, that old man of us will continue to strive to regain the complete dominion he had in us before we met the Master. God never loses battles, therefore if we always trust in Him first and never take back the reins for ourselves into our own hands guided by our own carnal minds or some devil; then we will never slip, we will never stumble, we will never sin. Unfortunately, just about all of the church groups of my acquaintance regularly teach people to quench the Holy Spirit and as they do that they take hold of their own reins one more time and slip back toward that bottomless pit of sinful ways. No overcomers produced while they continue to do that! And only overcomers may eat of the tree of Life [Rev 2:7].

God's power is decisive and immediate when He is in control. He gave control to you and to me. That is what some men name, 'free will'. So long as we refuse to give the control back to Him, He is limited by His own Word. You or I might break our given word, but God will never do that. We have the control until there is "time no longer" or using Apostle Paul's expression, until we have finished our course.

Sorry Amadues, although all your points are correct, I don't believe that they addresses any of my contentions. All you did was speak in a theoretical manner, not providing any proof that your convictions have come to pass, on any level. Where is the perfection in this world, where is the sinless man that you speak of? Are you still stumbling in your execution of speaking in tongues, how antithetical to a supernatural gift.
You cannot prove what you profess Amadues, that is my point. I agree with you as to what God's promises are, and what the power of Christ and Faith can do. But these are extremely rare and ever elusive, as man is just not that faithful nor devout.

 

[amadeus]

I believe you have read and know Scripture.
You know what the messenger of God , the apostle Paul, says about being "already there".... (i.e. "not as if") , but I forget where... :)

Not certain what you are looking for but this may suffice:

"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." II Tim 4:6-8

When do we get to the place where anything and everything that we want is what God wants for us? Look at these things which need to be overcome in each us by the power of God in each of us:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

The "world" here I see as the little world of each of us. Jesus overcame the world [John 16:33] but it was the temptations in his own body of flesh that he overcame... not all the problems of planet Earth. He paid a price making it possible for us to do what he did... but we have to do it. Many here will disagree with me on that.

When the 'lust of the flesh, the 'lust of the eyes' and the 'pride of life' no longer tempt us to sin then... then you see where, I believe, God wants us to be. It is Not impossible, because He is able... but we have to allow Him to come into and do the work in us.

 

[Nancy]

"in your mind" asking the op is , it seems clear to me, just like asking a priest of babylon, or someone working as a cashier at a grocery store,
or any man , anywhere, for truth that only the Father and Jesus can reveal, as Scripture thru and thru says.
In Scripture, it is written, a lot about sin and sinners. The problem may , yes, be someone "thinks" they sinned when they were just tempted,
but that is revealed by the Father through Jesus when it occurs, as we abide in Jesus, in line with all His Word.
Likewise, in Scripture, on this forum, in the USA, in churches, everywhere,
the problem over-arching is not that people "think" they have sinned because they are tempted to think so,
but rather they indeed and in truth continue living in sin, and think they are not sinning, as revealed by the Father thru Jesus and in line with all Scripture.

Hi Joseph,
I was only wanting to see what CL thought of those things...NOT looking for redemption through a human, lol. When I came to Christ with all I have in me, I never looked back...not even one time. Glaring outward sin like, fornication, adultery, looking at a woman with lust is the same as doing it, lying, stealing on and on are things anyone would see as sin (any Christian), and if Christians continue to live in this sin, do they not know they will never be allowed to enter God's Kingdom? I'm speaking to the ones that start in the mind but never come to fruition, unkind thoughts toward someone and such.

 

[amadeus]

No, I'm not confused about it or doubt it, I'm just saying it isn't biblical.

Even so... as you understand the Bible. We disagree! Without the lead of the Holy Spirit no man correctly understands what he reads in the Scriptures. The Ethiopian eunuch needed help and Philip helped, but Philip was only able to help by the Holy Spirit. This was true then and it is true now. The Word of God does not change and God does not change. We can change or we can be changed but the change must come from God who alone gives any real increase. Leaning on our own understanding and any established doctrines formulated by men will not do it.

 

[Joseph77]

Not certain what you are looking for

No worries:
Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this ...

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

 

[amadeus]

Sorry Amadues, although all your points are correct, I don't believe that they addresses any of my contentions. All you did was speak in a theoretical manner, not providing any proof that your convictions have come to pass, on any level. Where is the perfection in this world, where is the sinless man that you speak of? Are you still stumbling in your execution of speaking in tongues, how antithetical to a supernatural gift.
You cannot prove what you profess Amadues, that is my point. I agree with you as to what God's promises are, and what the power of Christ and Faith can do. But these are extremely rare and ever elusive, as man is just not that faithful nor devout.

I am not trying to prove things to you. Only God can do that. Forget about the world planet Earth and consider the world bearing on this forum "DNB". The only proof I have is in my own heart where God has placed it. People to whom God has given it may also see, but before that happens to or in anyone they must allow it. God does not force anyone. As Jesus put it:

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden..." Matt 11:28

Don't come to me, that is to Amadeus, for answers expecting also proof, unless you also listening to and hearing His voice as Saul/Paul heard the voice and went to Ananias:

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:4

How does one hear?

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:17

I cannot, and God will not, force anyone to do things His Way. His Way is the only Way that works.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Who knows his heart ?

He does.

 

[reformed1689]

Even so... as you understand the Bible. We disagree! Without the lead of the Holy Spirit no man correctly understands what he reads in the Scriptures. The Ethiopian eunuch needed help and Philip helped, but Philip was only able to help by the Holy Spirit. This was true then and it is true now. The Word of God does not change and God does not change. We can change or we can be changed but the change must come from God who alone gives any real increase. Leaning on our own understanding and any established doctrines formulated by men will not do it.

I'm not leaning on my own understanding. Leaning on the Word of God. I know you will say the same thing but your view simply doesn't align with Scripture.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi CL,
I know this subject has come up many times and, I too fought it and still do somewhat. It seems that many of us might think we have sinned yet, not really? An example would be thoughts that flit through the mind. They will just flit in and out like say, arguing with someone who did something stupid or someone who screwed you over and will point the finger at you and folks who don't know you might (and many do) believe the lie without ever asking for the other side of the story. Are these arguments or thoughts that flit, actual sins? When this happens with myself, I will immediately put them out of my head so as not to feed on them. I understand forgiving them is a must and we can still do that yet, I would never trust said person again so...in your mind, have I sinned here? I'm being serious because, I really do not know!
In Him,
nancy

No, that is just a temptation put there by the enemy, and you did exactly what you were suppose to do. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. It only becomes a sin when you dwell on it, turning it into hatred. Look how far it has to go before James calls it a sin.

James 1:
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

You weren't drawn away, so sin was not conceived.

 

[Episkopos]

I have yet to see an entirely edified or sanctified Christian, ever. What you are speaking of, in practice, is so idealistic and theoretical, that it's nothing but hypothetical. It is meant solely for the afterlife, and those considering the Faith. It is not a reality that has taken place in this life time.
Both you and I, and everyone else on this forum, have never seen such perfection from anyone, ever. Which, if what you say is true in practice, would be the case. For, we even see such imperfection in the disciples, during the Apostolic age.
So, I'm sorry Episkopos, I do not see the reality, or even the potential or mandate, at all, in what you're professing. I believe that you're theory is correct, according to the Scriptures that you quoted. But the application is way too elusive, and solely reserved for the extremely humble, wise and faithful, to even be considered an expectation.

The issue is this...how do you know if someone is fully sanctified or not? Judging by what or how?

Does a sanctified person make a show of it? Of course not!

Do people honour what is best in others? Of course not. Neither do they know all about others.


People don't discern spiritual things very well.

Of course some people become fully sanctified. But that doesn't mean they can stay there. Holiness is about location...being in Christ. So then the saints are they who have come into holiness...and yes ...out as well. We go in and out until we learn to stay in. A man called John Wesley knew of a certain pastor who went in and out of holiness 5 times before he learned to remain (abide) in Christ all the time. And he was the most saintly man he knew.

I have been in and out twice...and could not remain there because of immaturity. The first time because I was lonely and overwhelmed in my own selfishness...I wanted out. The second time I lasted a few years without even a stain of sin....but I was fooled by the devil in trusting someone. A very specific attack that I wasn't careful (too smug) thinking I was beyond the reach of deception. We can only remain in that which we have learned to remain in. That is the process of maturity IN holiness.

Otherwise we are walking in whatever righteousness we have of ourselves while seeking to be led by the Spirit.

God gives us the perfection of Christ as a gift of grace as He permits...and it is up to us in character and maturity to seek to remain there once translated into His presence in Zion. To abide (remain) in Christ so as to walk as He walked. That is the high calling in Christ.

 

[reformed1689]

The issue is this...how do you know if someone is fully sanctified or not? Judging by what or how?

Does a sanctified person make a show of it? Of course not!

Do people honour what is best in others? Of course not. Neither do they know all about others.


People don't discern spiritual things very well.

Of course some people become fully sanctified. But that doesn't mean they can stay there. Holiness is about location...being in Christ. So then the saints are they who have come into holiness...and yes ...out as well. We go in and out until we learn to stay in. A man called John Wesley knew of a certain pastor who went in and out of holiness 5 times before he learned to remain (abide) in Christ all the time. And he was the most saintly man he knew.

I have been in and out twice...and could not remain there because of immaturity. The first time because I was lonely and overwhelmed in my own selfishness...I wanted out. The second time I lasted a few years without even a stain of sin....but I was fooled by the devil in trusting someone. A very specific attack that I wasn't careful (too smug) thinking I was beyond the reach of deception. We can only remain in that which we have learned to remain in. That is the process of maturity IN holiness.

Otherwise we are walking in whatever righteousness we have of ourselves while seeking to be led by the Spirit.

So God gives us the perfection...and it is up to us in character and maturity to seek to remain there. To abide (remain) in Christ so as to walk as He walked.

We will not be fully sanctified in this life. Period.

 

[Episkopos]

We will not be fully sanctified in this life. Period.

That is a highly unqualified statement based on unbelief. We are to be perfect as the Father is perfect. To do so we must enter into Christ. But this is by faith....not by the kind of incredulity you are exhibiting. It is no wonder you have not tasted of His holiness yet.

1 Thess. 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Joseph77]

Yet the messenger of God said clearly, breathed by God in the Bible: NOT as if I have attained....
(for perspective )

 

[Joseph77]

Perspective: WHO is blameless today ?
Note who is blameless in the NT.

 

[CharismaticLady]

We will not be fully sanctified in this life. Period.

Oy vey

 

[Joseph77]

I'm not leaning on my own understanding. Leaning on the Word of God. I know you will say the same thing but your view simply doesn't align with Scripture.

Good. Good?.
The more that is posted, the more that is seen not aligning with Scripture, when someone's basis is off.

 

[Joseph77]

Oy vey

Perspective.
Look around.
Are you blameless today ? Is anyone else blameless ?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Perspective.
Look around.
Are you blameless today ? Is anyone else blameless ?

When the truth can't be understood, that is on them, not on the teacher.