Romans 8

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ATP

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brakelite said:
There are 3 significant parables that deal with the lost. The lost sheep, (Luke 15:3), the lost coin (Luke 15:8) and the lost son (Luke 15:11) . In the first two, through no fault of their own, the coin and sheep were lost, and they were looked for earnestly until they were found. When found, the coin was still silver, and the sheep was still a sheep. However, the son was lost because he decided against any continuing relationship with his father. He did not abide in the vine. He was lost through his own faulty reasoning, his own sin. The father did not search for him. The father waited until he changed his mind, then welcomed him back in the same manner as God does with the lost sinner, rejoicing with his neighbors and friends. When he returned he was still a son, but knew his unworthiness to be accepted as such. He was dirty, he was smelly, he was destitute, he was in need of a Savior. Though a son, he was still lost.
I see the term "lost" referring to only nonbelievers though while the root supports the branch Rom 11:18 NIV...

John 6:39 NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 17:9-10 NIV I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

John 17:12 NIV While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Rom 5:5 NIV And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Matt 10:5-7 NIV These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 15:4-7 NIV “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

- ATP
 
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brakelite

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ATP, whose coin was it that was lost? Whose sheep? Whose son?
 

ATP

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brakelite said:
ATP, whose coin was it that was lost? Whose sheep? Whose son?
The lost sheep parable is about bringing sinners, nonbelievers to salvation. Parables tell stories that always reveal lessons and deeper meanings, and if you notice the lesson is always at the end..(Luke 15:7 NIV I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.)

The lost coin parable is also about bringing sinners, nonbelievers to salvation. Parables tell stories that always reveal lessons and deeper meanings, and if you notice the lesson is always at the end..(Luke 15:10 NIV In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”)

Since we can confirm the first two parables in this chapter refer to an unregenerate sinner, we can also confirm the lost son is also. If we go to Luke 15:1-2 NIV the crowd Jesus was speaking too here throughout this chapter was tax collectors, sinners and Pharisees. In the parable of the lost son, the Lord is not warning His disciples against the danger of backsliding—but is vindicating Himself for "receiving sinners." Also, the words which the "father" spoke when the wandering son returned, furnish another proof that it is a sinner and not an erring son, who is before us. Said he, "Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him." (v. 22) The "best robe" here speaks of the Robe of Righteousness which each sinner receives when he first comes to Christ. Had it been a backslidden believer, his need would be to have his feet "washed." (John 13)

Finally, the "father's" statement concerning his son is proof positive that it is no erring Christian that is here in view. The father said, "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found." (v. 24) This is conclusive to all who believe that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29) Every believer is in present possession of eternal life, which he has received from God as his "gift" (Romans 6:23); and this "gift" is never recalled. If then the believer is in present possession of eternal life—he can never die. (See John 8:51.) That the father spoke of the returning prodigal as one who "was dead," and who "was lost" is proof positive that an unregenerate sinner is here in view. There is only one argument that is of any force against what we have said above, and that we will briefly consider.

We are asked to explain how Christ could speak of this wanderer as a "son" if he represented an unregenerate sinner. Insuperable as the difficulty appears at first sight it is, nevertheless, capable of simple solution. We answer in a word that this wanderer who came to the "father" was a son by election. He was a son in the purpose of God. If we should be asked to point to a Scripture which justifies such an assertion, where those of God's elect are termed "sons" before they are actually regenerated, we would at once refer to John 11:51, 52: "He prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; and not for that nation only—but that also He should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."

Here we are told that the ones who were to definitely benefit from the death of Christ, and who should be "gathered together in one" (that is, into one family), were, at that time "scattered abroad," nevertheless, they were denominated "the children of God"! Another Scripture which enunciates the same principle is John 10:16 where we find the Savior declaring "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold: them also I must bring." Even before they were brought to Himself, the Good Shepherd terms them His sheep.

Before giving a detailed exposition of the closing verses of Luke 15, we would point out that this chapter does not contain three parables, as is commonly supposed—but instead, one parable in three parts. In verse 3 we are told, "He spoke this parable unto them, saying, What man of you having a hundred sheep," etc. Again in verse 8 we read how that the Savior continued to say, without any break, "Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one," etc. Then in verse 11 it is recorded, "Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons," etc. This parable as a whole has to do with the salvation of a lost sinner, and much of its beauty is missed by failing to discern its unbroken unity. It gives a beautiful and marvelous picture of the concern of each of the three Persons of the Holy Trinity in the salvation of the lost. In the third part of this parable we are shown a sinner coming into the presence of the Father. But in order to appreciate the preciousness of this we must pay careful attention to what precedes.

In the second part of this one parable, we have brought before us, in figurative form, the work of the Holy Spirit, and this, we know, is what precedes the coming of any sinner into the presence of the Father. And on what is the work of the Holy Spirit based? The answer is, upon the work of Christ; and this is what we have portrayed in the first part of the parable, where the Shepherd is in view.

So again, parables tell stories that always reveal lessons and deeper meanings, and if you notice the lesson is always at the end..when this passage says, "dead and is alive again" it's referring to being alive in their sin and dead to God Rom 6:11 NIV..(Luke 15:31-32 NIV “ ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ ”)..........

We also see here there is rejoicing and celebrating when one sinner repents and comes to faith...

Luke 15:7 NIV I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Luke 15:10 NIV In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Luke 15:32 NIV But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ ”

- ATP
 
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brakelite

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That is all very interesting, and the writer no doubt an educated and well versed in scripture. Except for one thing which he and you have conveniently overlooked. Whose coin was it before it was lost? Was it not the house-wife's coin? Was it not formerly a part of the house-hold's treasury? Very likely a full days wage and the difference between going hungry or not. If that was the case, then it at one stage, likely the previous evening, already been brought into the house-hold .
Or it could have been a part of a treasured head piece for an upcoming wedding, as was the custom for that day. So either way, it wasn't lost from without the house and brought in, but lost from within the house and rediscovered.
The sheep was the same. It was formerly a part of the flock, in fact it had already been numbered as a part of the 100. The shepherd left the 99 to find what was formerly his. He did no discover a sheep from someone elses flock...it came from his own.
The prodigal son, well quite frankly that is self explanatory. He was a son before he left, he was always a son throughout his self=imposed exile, and he was greeted as a son on his return.
What is interesting ATP is the common fallacy shared by all those OSAS proponents, is the belief that Christians cannot sin.Let me assure you, if a born again Christian chooses to walk again according to the flesh, he will and does sin. It is inevitable. However, for the Christian who walks in the Spirit, then yes, he cannot sin, for the Lord empowers him against such a practice. That is the greatest battle Christians will ever face. Their 'old' self. The prodigal son parable is a stark portrayal of the child of God who in obedience to his fleshly lusts, chooses to abandon or squander his inheritance on the lusts of the flesh, and as a result was lost.
In such cases God does not force the will. The son needed to 'come to himself', that is wake up, and return from whence he came, where, like everyone else who repents and forsakes the world, will find forgiveness and acceptance.
 

OzSpen

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ATP said:
Correct, but not only did Jesus conquer death. He died so that we would have eternal life John 3:16 NIV. It is that simple Jim. Jesus died for past, present and future sins John 1:29 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 10:12 NIV, 1 John 2:12 NIV, Rev 1:4-5 NIV.
ATP,

The content of John 3:36 NIV; John 6:47 NIV and John 15:6 NIV teach that eternal life is conditional on people continuing to believe. People will continue to have eternal life if they continue to believe and they continue to remain in the vine. These verses are contrary to the view of OSAS.

In my understanding of the exegesis, a once saved, always saved view is not taught by these verses that require continuing belief to enter eternal life. And that is taught by John 3:16 (NIV) as well, ‘whoever believes’ means ‘whoever continues to believe’ because the Greek for ‘believes’ is a present tense Greek participle, indicating continuing action. Thus affirming the other verses that I’ve cited from John that continuing / continuous believing is needed to enter and retain eternal life.

Thus, perseverance of the saints, in my understanding, is a much more biblical description of the perspective in Scripture – as I understand the Greek present tense used in the verses I have mentioned – than a once saved, always saved view (based on my understanding of the Greek grammar of the meaning of the present tense).

Oz
 

OzSpen

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aspen said:
I , like the Bishops who wrote this commentary believe that we can forfeit our salvation - Paul is speaking in this verse about losing the love of God, which is not possible. I am surprised that you didn't notice the point of many of my recent posts about losing vs forfeiting salvation?
aspen,

Take a read of this thesaurus for synonyms of 'forfeit'. One of them is 'loss', Therefore, you are quibbling over something that does not exist. Losing and forfeiting are synonymous terms. They mean the same in the English language.

Oz
 

mjrhealth

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then yes, he cannot sin, for the Lord empowers him against such a practice
Completely missed the point. Are you without sin??

as for His sheep, they follow Jesus for they know His Voice,and the voice of a stranger they wlll not follow,no pastor, priest denpmination, religion, they are His and they belong to Him. And no that does not include all chrstians, if it where so you would not be bickering and in contention.

In all His Love
 

ATP

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OzSpen said:
ATP,

The content of John 3:36 NIV; John 6:47 NIV and John 15:6 NIV teach that eternal life is conditional on people continuing to believe. People will continue to have eternal life if they continue to believe and they continue to remain in the vine. These verses are contrary to the view of OSAS.

In my understanding of the exegesis, a once saved, always saved view is not taught by these verses that require continuing belief to enter eternal life. And that is taught by John 3:16 (NIV) as well, ‘whoever believes’ means ‘whoever continues to believe’ because the Greek for ‘believes’ is a present tense Greek participle, indicating continuing action. Thus affirming the other verses that I’ve cited from John that continuing / continuous believing is needed to enter and retain eternal life.

Thus, perseverance of the saints, in my understanding, is a much more biblical description of the perspective in Scripture – as I understand the Greek present tense used in the verses I have mentioned – than a once saved, always saved view (based on my understanding of the Greek grammar of the meaning of the present tense).

Oz
I'm a little confused. Doesn't death mean death. If those who go their own way are no longer sealed why does it say we are sealed until death into his death. Also notice the word "resurrection"...

Rom 6:3-5 NIV Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Rom 8:31-39 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 8:33, 35, 38, 39 says neither..

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger or sword
death nor life
nor angels
nor rulers
nor things present nor things to come
nor powers
nor height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate the elect from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, the Holy Spirit that is in us.

Rom 5:5 NIV And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

- ATP
 

OzSpen

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ATP said:
I'm a little confused. Doesn't death mean death. If those who go their own way are no longer sealed why does it say we are sealed until death into his death. Also notice the word "resurrection"...

Rom 6:3-5 NIV Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Rom 8:31-39 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 8:33, 35, 38, 39 says neither..

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger or sword
death nor life
nor angels
nor rulers
nor things present nor things to come
nor powers
nor height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate the elect from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, the Holy Spirit that is in us.

Rom 5:5 NIV And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

- ATP
This is a red herring response as you didn't address the issues I raised.

Oz
 

ATP

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OzSpen said:
ATP,

You did NOT address the issues I raised at #25 but were off and running with your own slant. You committed a red herring logical fallacy.

Then you described my doctrine as 'from the devil'. This is fallacious reasoning, using an ad hominem fallacy.

Please learn that when you use logical fallacies, it is impossible for us to have a reasonable discussion.

Oz
You have no response. That's why you post your silly fallacy BS.
 

HammerStone

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Moderation Note:

This topic was beginning to derail a bit into ad hominem discussions. Please remember that this community is about discussing and debating doctrines, not attacking people no matter how wrong you may feel their views are.

Thanks in advance to everyone for getting back on track!
 

lforrest

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ATP said:
I'm a little confused. Doesn't death mean death. If those who go their own way are no longer sealed why does it say we are sealed until death into his death. Also notice the word "resurrection"...

Rom 6:3-5 NIV Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
There is a concept here that is made complete in the full context, A believer should be symbolically dead to sin already. Dead men cannot sin.
I don't think dying with Christ refers our physical death some time in the future, just as being born again isn't from your mother's womb.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
It is similar to these.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
 

ATP

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lforrest said:
There is a concept here that is made complete in the full context, A believer should be symbolically dead to sin already. Dead men cannot sin.
I don't think dying with Christ refers our physical death some time in the future, just as being born again isn't from your mother's womb.
What are your thoughts on Rom 8:33-39 ESV. I guess we should keep on topic with Rom 8 thread.