Romans 9 Vs. Calvinism

[Quantrill]

Ernest T. Bass

No. The elect are the elect before they ever place faith in Christ.

Those of Isreal who were of the flesh were not children of promise. They will never be children of promise or the elect.

Well, yes. Christians are elect of God. So? Proves nothing of what you are trying to say. You said God cut off the elect Jews. That is false.

Who said it is not possible? You? That is what the elect are. Chosen of God before. As a result they place faith in Christ.

Eph. 2:15-16 just describes what the Church is. And I agree. It doesn't say the Church is now Israel. How foolish.

Col. 2:14 is speaking of the law. Not the whole Old Testament.

Heb. 10:9 is speaking of the law compared to the New covenant. It doesn't say the Old Testament is taken away.

Christ fulfilled the law. He is a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Not of Levi or Aron.

Quantrill

 

[Rach1370]

In Romans 9, Paul knows that God has cut-off His elect Jews and grafted in the once non-elect Gentiles (Rom 11:11-22) and in Romans 9 Paul refutes any argument the Jews would have against God doing this.

How does this casting off of elect and grafting in those once non-elect jibe with the idea of Calvinistic predestination?

Um....I'm sorry if this has been said before...I haven't had the time to read the whole thread...but...

Doesnt 'Predestination' just mean that God determined beforehand? In which case, we'd say that God, before the world began, had already decided that his will and purposes for mankind would follow a few 'elect' within ethnic Israel, which would bring about the birth of Christ, which would lead to the salvation of the 'elect' Gentiles??

All it means is that everything is following God's exact plan and purpose. I don't have a problem with that!

Biblically, I think Paul makes it quite clear in Rom 9 that:

One - Just because a person was ethnically a 'Jew', does not mean they were part of the promises given to 'Israel', or the 'elect'.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. (Romans 9:6-8, ESV)

Two - that even though God chooses some to be saved, and some not to be...that it is not of our doing, of any kind of worth from ourselves. It's all God's grace, and all to achieve his purposes...which was set long ago.

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9:11-13, ESV)

Three - That while this may seem unfair...especially as many 'Jews'...who would seem to have a Patriarchal right to God's promises of election, will 'miss out'....Paul tells us that who are we...man,..to say what God should do, or how he should do it. Paul also notes that God has determined that we are either 'prepared for destruction' or 'prepared for glory'...."beforehand"....so that he may show his power.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24, ESV)

Bascially...I see Romans 9 as very clearly laying out that God had determined to choose some, but not others, before it was all said and done. And that just really says that everything is playing out exactly as God had planned. "Predestined" just means that God is in ultimate control, that his hand is firmly on the steering wheel and we'd better believe that what he has declared to happen...will happen. I find it immensely comforting, actually. Imagine the bible telling us that saving the Gentiles was a quickly made up plan B...and that he may need to come up with a plan C if things continue to go pear shaped! Scary!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass

No. The elect are the elect before they ever place faith in Christ.

Those of Isreal who were of the flesh were not children of promise. They will never be children of promise or the elect.

Well, yes. Christians are elect of God. So? Proves nothing of what you are trying to say. You said God cut off the elect Jews. That is false.

Who said it is not possible? You? That is what the elect are. Chosen of God before. As a result they place faith in Christ.

Eph. 2:15-16 just describes what the Church is. And I agree. It doesn't say the Church is now Israel. How foolish.

Col. 2:14 is speaking of the law. Not the whole Old Testament.

Heb. 10:9 is speaking of the law compared to the New covenant. It doesn't say the Old Testament is taken away.

Christ fulfilled the law. He is a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Not of Levi or Aron.

Quantrill

Again, it is impossible for one to be of the elect without faith in Christ. Unbelief is a condemned condition> Mk 16:16b Jn 3:16-18 There are numerous verse that put faith/belief BEFORE salvation not after. You have not yet shown one example of a person faithless and outside of Christ yet saved.


God did cut off all of fleshly Israel, Rom 2:28,29 Rom 9 :8 Peter preached to these lost Jews on Pentecost Acts 2 and those that obeyed the gospel became part of God's elect: Christians.

Eph 2:15-16 show how Jew and Gentile make up the one body, Christians, the elect of God and again, you have not yet shown one unbeliever that was a Christian/part of the elect.

Col 2:14 does not say Christ took just part of the OT away and the Hebrew writer plainly said He taketh away the first. Notice it does NOT say He taketh away just some parts of the first.

Under the OT priests could only come from the tribe of Levi, Christ came from the tribe of Juda so if the OT was still in effect Christ could not be a priest, so that is why there was a 'change in laws',


[A request: please offer some book chapter and verses to back up the claims you are making. Example: it is easy for you to post "The elect are the elect before they ever place faith in Christ." and then show no proof> Please show proof, a book chapter verse or a biblical example of one who was a Christian/elect but had no faith in Christ.]

Um....I'm sorry if this has been said before...I haven't had the time to read the whole thread...but...

Doesnt 'Predestination' just mean that God determined beforehand? In which case, we'd say that God, before the world began, had already decided that his will and purposes for mankind would follow a few 'elect' within ethnic Israel, which would bring about the birth of Christ, which would lead to the salvation of the 'elect' Gentiles??

All it means is that everything is following God's exact plan and purpose. I don't have a problem with that!

Biblically, I think Paul makes it quite clear in Rom 9 that:

One - Just because a person was ethnically a 'Jew', does not mean they were part of the promises given to 'Israel', or the 'elect'.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. (Romans 9:6-8, ESV)

Two - that even though God chooses some to be saved, and some not to be...that it is not of our doing, of any kind of worth from ourselves. It's all God's grace, and all to achieve his purposes...which was set long ago.

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9:11-13, ESV)

Three - That while this may seem unfair...especially as many 'Jews'...who would seem to have a Patriarchal right to God's promises of election, will 'miss out'....Paul tells us that who are we...man,..to say what God should do, or how he should do it. Paul also notes that God has determined that we are either 'prepared for destruction' or 'prepared for glory'...."beforehand"....so that he may show his power.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24, ESV)

Bascially...I see Romans 9 as very clearly laying out that God had determined to choose some, but not others, before it was all said and done. And that just really says that everything is playing out exactly as God had planned. "Predestined" just means that God is in ultimate control, that his hand is firmly on the steering wheel and we'd better believe that what he has declared to happen...will happen. I find it immensely comforting, actually. Imagine the bible telling us that saving the Gentiles was a quickly made up plan B...and that he may need to come up with a plan C if things continue to go pear shaped! Scary!

Hi,

In Rom 9 Paul knows God has cast of fleshly Jews from being the elect and grafted in the Gentiles. So in Rom 9 Paul raises and refutes objections he knew the Jews would have to this. The chapter begins with these once elect Jews now lost and Paul lamenting over the fact his kinsmen in the flesh are lost. So we have Jews going from elect to non elect and Gentiles going from non-elect to elect which cannot be according to Calvinistic predestination. Furthermore these non-elect lost Jews Paul laments over Paul says they can actually become part of the elect/be saved, Rom 10:1-3 if they would just obey God's commandments, obey he gospel but most have not Rom10:16.

God cut-off fleshly Israel as being His elect and made Christian His elect now. So we have fleshly Jews going from elect to be cut-off (Rom 11) and lost with just a remnant of these lost Jews obeying the gospel (Acts 2) to becoming God's elect as Christians. None of this fits Calvinistic predestination which does not allow one go from elect to non-elect or vice versa.

Again, if elect are elect and non-elect are non-elect and nothing can change what God predetermined before the world began, then explain how these Jews in Rom 9 went from God's elect under the OT to be lost /non-elect under the NT yet could still be saved/elect Rom 10:1-3.

 

[Rach1370]

Hi,

In Rom 9 Paul knows God has cast of fleshly Jews from being the elect and grafted in the Gentiles. So in Rom 9 Paul raises and refutes objections he knew the Jews would have to this. The chapter begins with these once elect Jews now lost and Paul lamenting over the fact his kinsmen in the flesh are lost. So we have Jews going from elect to non elect and Gentiles going from non-elect to elect which cannot be according to Calvinistic predestination. Furthermore these non-elect lost Jews Paul laments over Paul says they can actually become part of the elect/be saved, Rom 10:1-3 if they would just obey God's commandments, obey he gospel but most have not Rom10:16.

Yes, in the first 5 verses of chapter 9 we see Paul mourning for all his 'brothers of the flesh'. How could he not?? These people had been blessed because of God's promises to the Patriarch's. God had raised up leader after leader within this people, his purpose to bring about the birth of the Saviour.

They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9:4-5, ESV)

Anyone would think (the Jews certianly did) that 'Israel' would continue being blessed because they had been the ones who had recieved God's blessings, promises, Laws, leaders...and eventually, Jesus. But Paul goes on to say that no.....that was never God's intent.

You say "these once elect Jews now lost". But Paul makes it clear that God never intended all ethnic Jews to be 'elect'....

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, (Romans 9:6, ESV)

Paul cannot help be sad for his people...many of them lost. And it should be the same of us today...we know many people will not be saved. I think it doubly tragic that the Jews...after all their history, and even though they worship the God of the OT and not a false god like Allah.....still will not have salvation, because they refuse Jesus.

God cut-off fleshly Israel as being His elect and made Christian His elect now. So we have fleshly Jews going from elect to be cut-off (Rom 11) and lost with just a remnant of these lost Jews obeying the gospel (Acts 2) to becoming God's elect as Christians. None of this fits Calvinistic predestination which does not allow one go from elect to non-elect or vice versa.

I think the problem you are having here is that you insist that the Jews have gone from 'elect' status, to 'non-elect' status. But Romans 6-29 focuses on the that very issue. Paul tells us that even though the Jews are blood descendants from Abraham...to who the promise was given....not all of them were considered elect....God's people.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. (Romans 9:6-8, ESV)

This is quite clear...the meaning obvious. God did not change some peoples status, he is making them aware that he had never afforded that status to them in the first place.
So too in Romans 11, we see Paul repeating the fact that God's word has not failed...his intent has not changed. His promises of election were fulfilled in the past as he saved those he 'foreknew'...as they were in Pauls time, who counts himself as an elect member of Israel, and as they are now.

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew...But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:1, 4-6, ESV)

Again, if elect are elect and non-elect are non-elect and nothing can change what God predetermined before the world began, then explain how these Jews in Rom 9 went from God's elect under the OT to be lost /non-elect under the NT yet could still be saved/elect Rom 10:1-3.

Again, Romans is not talking of the Jews starting out as 'elect', only to have God change his mind and declare them 'non-elect'. Paul explains very clearly that God's plan and purpose for election has echoed down from the Patriarchs. There was a remnant then, and Paul states that there was still a remnant in his time...of whom he belonged to. He is very clear that just because one has the blood and ascendants of Israel, does not mean they belong to the covenants.

Having made that point clear, Paul has effectively made your point moot. I understand you also question the imagry in Romans 11 when Paul says that Israel has been removed from the olive tree, and the Gentiles grafted in. The imagry brings to mind and active removal...a change in status.

But what we must understand from that passage...is exactly what I've been saying! God has a plan. He had it before the world was created, and every event in human history has happened in accordance to that plan.

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. (Romans 11:11, ESV)

God always intended to 'remove' the majority of the Jews from the olive root. He intended it so that he could call Gentiles to himself. And in time he will use the fact that he called Gentiles to himself, to once more call more Jews.

This post is getting rather long, so I'll stop. But I honestly can't see anything in the passages in question, that gives us leave to assume that: one....God's plans are not in perfect action...then and now....and two: that we are able to give ALL Jews the status of elect..and then take that away from them. Indeed, the passages only contradict that assumption. They never had it to begin with. What they had was a form of common grace that God extends to the whole world now.

 

[Quantrill]

Ernest T. Bass

No, it is impossible for anyone to have faith in God without being first one of the elect.

I didn't say God did not cut off all of Israel after the flesh. He did. I said God did not cut off His elect of Israel. Which is what you said.

Elect comes before 'faith' and 'salvation'.

I never said anyone outside of Christ is saved. Pleas pay attention. But only the 'elect' will be saved. And there are 'elect' alive at this present time who are not yet saved. But they will be. Because they are elect.

No, those who believed in Acts 2 were elect. Which is why they believed. Election comes first.

Eph. 2 is a picture of the Church. Both Jew and Gentile believers in one Body. Neither I or you can know who the elect are until they believe. But we can know that God has His elect. And His choice of elect comes before any ones faith and salvation.

Col.2:14 and the passage in Hebrew refer to the Mosaic covenant. It doesn't address the Abrahamic Covenant. Thus all in the Old Testament has not been done away with as there is much there that is yet to be fulfilled.

Christ could not be a priest under the Law. But Christ was a priest after a different order. The order of Melchizedek. The changing of the Law does not mean the doing away of the Old Testament.

The 'elect' are not just those of the Church. Christians. They are also of Israel. They are also of those prior to Israel. They are also those of the Tribulation, after the Church, but not part of Israel. All of Gods people are elect, though they are in different camps.

Quantrill

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass

No, it is impossible for anyone to have faith in God without being first one of the elect.

I didn't say God did not cut off all of Israel after the flesh. He did. I said God did not cut off His elect of Israel. Which is what you said.

Elect comes before 'faith' and 'salvation'.

I never said anyone outside of Christ is saved. Pleas pay attention. But only the 'elect' will be saved. And there are 'elect' alive at this present time who are not yet saved. But they will be. Because they are elect.

No, those who believed in Acts 2 were elect. Which is why they believed. Election comes first.

Eph. 2 is a picture of the Church. Both Jew and Gentile believers in one Body. Neither I or you can know who the elect are until they believe. But we can know that God has His elect. And His choice of elect comes before any ones faith and salvation.

Col.2:14 and the passage in Hebrew refer to the Mosaic covenant. It doesn't address the Abrahamic Covenant. Thus all in the Old Testament has not been done away with as there is much there that is yet to be fulfilled.

Christ could not be a priest under the Law. But Christ was a priest after a different order. The order of Melchizedek. The changing of the Law does not mean the doing away of the Old Testament.

The 'elect' are not just those of the Church. Christians. They are also of Israel. They are also of those prior to Israel. They are also those of the Tribulation, after the Church, but not part of Israel. All of Gods people are elect, though they are in different camps.

Quantrill

Elect is equivlent to being saved/Christian, therefore it is biblically impossible for one to be of the elect/saved/Christian while faithless.


One who has no faith is outside of Christ, therefore anyone who is not part of the elect/not a Christian/faithless is not in Christ.


Again show me one biblical example of a person that was elect/saved/a Christian while still in unbelief. So far you have just gave me your opinion on this subject, no book, chapter or verse to back any of your claims.

 

[Quantrill]

Elect is equivlent to being saved/Christian, therefore it is biblically impossible for one to be of the elect/saved/Christian while faithless.


One who has no faith is outside of Christ, therefore anyone who is not part of the elect/not a Christian/faithless is not in Christ.


Again show me one biblical example of a person that was elect/saved/a Christian while still in unbelief. So far you have just gave me your opinion on this subject, no book, chapter or verse to back any of your claims.

No, elect is not equivelent to being saved. Being elect inusures that you will be saved. One is elect from the very foundation of the world. From the time one is born, to the time he exercises saving faith, he is elect. Even though he was lost during that time.

Every one who is saved, who exercises saving faith, are the elect. As I said, not just Christians, but those of Israel also.

Jacob was elect. Rom. 9:11-13 Esau was not.

Quantrill

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No, elect is not equivelent to being saved. Being elect inusures that you will be saved. One is elect from the very foundation of the world. From the time one is born, to the time he exercises saving faith, he is elect. Even though he was lost during that time.

Every one who is saved, who exercises saving faith, are the elect. As I said, not just Christians, but those of Israel also.

Jacob was elect. Rom. 9:11-13 Esau was not.

Quantrill

The elect are Christians, Christians are the elect which is a saved position.

Rom 9 has nothing to do with salvation of Jacob and Esau Just because God chose Israel/Jacob over Edom/Esau to be the ones through which the Messiah would enter the world did not automatically mean Edom/Esau was lost with no hope. No more than God choosing Abraham over Melchisedec to be the father of this great nation did not automatically mean Melchisedec would be lost. Edom/Esau could be saved, as everyone else, if they just obey God. I read nothing in the bible that indicates Esau the individual would be lost.

You have yet to show one who was a Christian/elect yet still in unbelief.

 

[Quantrill]

The elect are Christians, Christians are the elect which is a saved position.

Rom 9 has nothing to do with salvation of Jacob and Esau Just because God chose Israel/Jacob over Edom/Esau to be the ones through which the Messiah would enter the world did not automatically mean Edom/Esau was lost with no hope. No more than God choosing Abraham over Melchisedec to be the father of this great nation did not automatically mean Melchisedec would be lost. Edom/Esau could be saved, as everyone else, if they just obey God. I read nothing in the bible that indicates Esau the individual would be lost.

You have yet to show one who was a Christian/elect yet still in unbelief.

Are elect angels Christians? No. The elect are the elect. They are those chosen of God though in different camps.

Rom.9:11-13 has every thing to do with what you were asking for. Which was one who is elect though has not yet believed. Jacob was elect. He had not yet believed. Esau was rejected though his earthly life was still to be played out.

The teaching of Rom. 9:11-13 can be applied to the elect in Israel and the non-elect in Edom. But that does not negate that it is Jacob the individual and Esau the individual who are being addressed here.


I have told you. All Christians are elect. They were elect before the foundation of the world. Eph. 1:4 " According as he hath chosen us in him, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Which means prior to any of their placing faith in Christ, they were already elect.

Quantrill

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Are elect angels Christians? No. The elect are the elect. They are those chosen of God though in different camps.

Rom.9:11-13 has every thing to do with what you were asking for. Which was one who is elect though has not yet believed. Jacob was elect. He had not yet believed. Esau was rejected though his earthly life was still to be played out.

The teaching of Rom. 9:11-13 can be applied to the elect in Israel and the non-elect in Edom. But that does not negate that it is Jacob the individual and Esau the individual who are being addressed here.


I have told you. All Christians are elect. They were elect before the foundation of the world. Eph. 1:4 " According as he hath chosen us in him, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Which means prior to any of their placing faith in Christ, they were already elect.

Quantrill

Before the world began, God predetermined that the group Christians would be His elect, but God never predetermined what individuals would or would not be in this group. When a person chooses to obey the gospel of Christ, he then is added to this predetermined group thereby becoming part of the elect.

Meaning those Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 that choose to obey the gospel then were added to this group making them of God's elect. These Jews and Gentiles that do not obey the gospel remain lost, outside of this elect group.

Rom 9 in no way teaches God determines for man what individuals will or will not be saved. In Rom 9 Paul is refuting any argument the Jews would have in the fact God cut off fleshly Israel and grafted in the Gentiles, (Rom 11) An argument Paul knew the Jews would first use was that since they were the physical descendants of Abraham, then God had to choose them being Abraham's children. Why Paul uses Israel/Jacob and Edom/Esau is to show the Jews God does not have to base His choices on physical descent. Paul points out that Edom/Esau was as much a direct descendant of Abraham and Isaac as much as Israel/Jacob was, yet Edom/Esau was not chosen! Therefore if God did not choose Edom who were direct descendants of Abraham He did not have to choose Israel for being direct descendants of Abraham. (Paul in this context is really talking about the nations Israel and Edom and not the individuals Jacob and Esau as Paul quotes from two OT verses; Gen 25:23 and Mal 1:3 both of which speak of nations, not individuals)

God's choice of Israel/Jacob over Edom/Esau did not have to do with salvation but with which nation God would use to bring the Messiah into the world. God's choice of Israel/Jacob did not automatically mean the nation Edom or the individual Esau would be lost. Both Edom and Esau could be saved if they would obey God. I do not read anything in the bible to lead me to think that Esau the individual would be lost even though he was not chosen. Again, God chose Abraham to be the father of this nation that would bring the Messiah into the world. Did God choosing Abraham over Melchisedec automatically mean Melchisedec would be lost? No. Therefore God choosing Israel/Jacob over Edom/Esau did not mean Edom/Esau was automatically lost either.

So Paul's point in Rom 9:11ff is not showing God, before the world began, capriciously elected some individuals to be saved and others to be lost but to prove that receiving God's promises is NOT based on one's physical descent. Therefore God can have mercy upon whom He will have mercy implying God can have mercy upon the Gentiles even though they are not Abraham's physical descendants.

One commentary aptly says "Right here, reading 'Calvinistic Predestination' into these verses contradicts Paul's whole point. For in selecting Jacob, many of Jacob's descendants still ended up lost! (The very problem being dealt with in this chapter! 9:1,31/10:1-3) 'It is rather odd that this chapter should be used to prove salvation by election when, so far as it bears on election at all, it is wholly an effort to justify God in casting off an elect people (Jews that refused to believe) and choosing an non-elect people (believing Gentiles)' God excluded various individuals from the 'covenant of promise' (i.e. Ishmael, Esau, Melchizedek), but not from salvation! Paul said that Gentiles had been excluded from the 'covenants of promise' (Eph. 2:12), but that didn't mean they were automatically excluded from salvation. We know that believing Gentiles in ancient times were justified (Rahab and Ruth come to mind). Paul agreed (Romans 2:26).
-Mark Dunagan

 

[Quantrill]

Ernest T. Bass

Eph. 1:4 is clear. The individuals are chosen. "According as he hath chosen us in him, before the foundation of the world."

Concerning ones ability to believe, it is from God. Meaning the choice is from God. Matt. 16:17 " And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. "

And concerning Jacob and Esau of Romans 9, you are adding 'Israel' and 'Edom' into the text. It speaks of Jacob and Esau because it is the two individuals that God is addressing. For further proof of this just look at the Old Tetament quote it is taken from.

Malachi 1:1-3The burden of the word of the LORD to Isarael by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste...."

See.

The elect are individuals chosen from the foundation of the earth. God forsakes none of His elect. All Christians have been chosen individually by God to be saved. Just as the elect in Israel are also.

Quantrill

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass

Eph. 1:4 is clear. The individuals are chosen. "According as he hath chosen us in him, before the foundation of the world."

Concerning ones ability to believe, it is from God. Meaning the choice is from God. Matt. 16:17 " And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. "

And concerning Jacob and Esau of Romans 9, you are adding 'Israel' and 'Edom' into the text. It speaks of Jacob and Esau because it is the two individuals that God is addressing. For further proof of this just look at the Old Tetament quote it is taken from.

Malachi 1:1-3The burden of the word of the LORD to Isarael by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste...."

See.

The elect are individuals chosen from the foundation of the earth. God forsakes none of His elect. All Christians have been chosen individually by God to be saved. Just as the elect in Israel are also.

Quantrill

There is nothing in Eph 1:4,5 about individuals being foreknown. What is in Eph 1:4,5 are foreknown traits those being in Christ, holy and without blame and sons of God. So what God foreknew was a group that would be called "Christian" and God foreknew this group would be in Christ, be holy and without blame and be called sons of God. Therefore anyone that choose to obey the gospel then becomes part of this group and take on these foreknown traits.
The "us" in Eph 4:1 refers to the group Chrisitan, not certain individuals.

mal 1 God is speaking to the nation Israel. God is explaining to Israel why he loved loved Israel but 'hated' Edom. It is not uncommon in the OT that a nation be called by its progenitor. Israel is called Jacob and Edom is called Esau and the Jews Paul wrote Rom 9 would know that. Gen 36:1 Gen 36:8 Note in Jer 49:10 that Esau had been dead for centuries yet in this context Edom is called Esau.


Question: God chose Abraham and not Melchesedic. Does this mean Melchesedic was chosen to be lost by God before the world began?

 

[Quantrill]

Ernest T. Bass

Sure there is individuals being forknown. The 'us' are the believers. Chosen.

And, Jesus was explicit in Matt. 16 that it was the Father that opened Peters eyes to the faith in Christ as the Son of God.

No, Malachi is also explicit. God is speaking to Israel, and yet uses Jacob and Esau the individuals to show that just like he chose and loved Jacob, so He chooses and loves Israel.

The fact that you can make application to Israel, and Edom, does not change that God chose the individuals. Jacob whom He loved. And Esau whom He hated.

So, again, you are inserting Israel and Edom into Rom. 9:11-13, when it doesn't speak to them. It speaks to Jacob and Esau as proven by Malachi 1:1-3

Start another thread with your question on Melchizedek. We are not finished here yet.

Quantrill

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass

Sure there is individuals being forknown. The 'us' are the believers. Chosen.

And, Jesus was explicit in Matt. 16 that it was the Father that opened Peters eyes to the faith in Christ as the Son of God.

No, Malachi is also explicit. God is speaking to Israel, and yet uses Jacob and Esau the individuals to show that just like he chose and loved Jacob, so He chooses and loves Israel.

The fact that you can make application to Israel, and Edom, does not change that God chose the individuals. Jacob whom He loved. And Esau whom He hated.

So, again, you are inserting Israel and Edom into Rom. 9:11-13, when it doesn't speak to them. It speaks to Jacob and Esau as proven by Malachi 1:1-3

Start another thread with your question on Melchizedek. We are not finished here yet.

Quantrill

In Eph 1:4 the us refers to a group, Cristians not certain individuals. God forkenw this group Christians would be chosen "in Christ", God foreknew this group would be holy and without blame and God foreknew this group would be called sons of God. I read nothing whatsoever in Eph 1:4,5 where it says God foreknew certain individuals to be uncondtionally saved before the word began. Al the verses say is God foreknew a group and foreknew certain traits this group would have. Indivduals that choose to obey the gospel and become a Christian then become part of the group and take on those foreknown traits. NO ONE will be saved outside of the foreknow group and God NEVER determine what individual wood or would not be in this group.

In Mal 1:1 God is speaking to the nation Israel, "hast thou loved us" not the individual Jacob, so God is using Jacobs name for Israel in verse 2

Verse 4 says "The people against whom Jehovah hath indignation for ever." It was people not an individual Esau God was talking about "hating". Esau's name is being used for Edom in verse 3.

Verse 3 "but Esau I hated.."


First, this was said centuries AFTER Esau died and not before he was born. Nowhere does the bible say God ever "hated" the indivdual Esau.

Secondly, God's "hate" for Edom was not some capricious hate God had for Edom for no particular reason before the world began. Eze 25:12,13 God's "hate" for Edom came about as a result of their transgressions, they BECAME guilty, they were not predetermined guilty by God before the world began.

Lastly, Gen 36:6-8 tells us Jacob and Esau lied together in the same country yet their possession became so great the land could not contain both of the so Esau move to Mt. Seir. Deut 2:5,22 giving Esau MT Seir and driving out the Horites from MT Seir so Edom could have was a blessing from God to Esau not "hate". Not a word in any of this about God 'hating' the individual Esau.



You were arguing that God made a predetemined choice between the indivduals Jacob and Esau and this choice was a choice God made about their eternal savlation before the world began. If that is true, and for you to be consistent with your argument, then God's choice of Abraham over Melchizadek was a predetermined choice about their eternal salvation God made before the world began.

 

[Quantrill]

Ernest T. Bass

Sorry, but 'us' in Eph. 1: is to the individual. It is the individuals. 'Chosen Us'.

You say God never determined who would be those who are in Christ. Foolish statement.

Rom. 8:29-30 " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predistinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Four times God uses the word 'whom'. That is to the individual. The individual He foreknew. The individual He predestianted. The individual He called. The individual He justified. The individual He glorified.

Quantrill

 

[FHII]

To nail that down more Quantrill, in Eph 1 Paul notes a second time the act of predestination when he says, "in whom [Christ] also we have obtained and inheritiance, being predestinated according to him who worketh all things after the council of his own will, that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation...."

The "we" is not the Jews or the gentiles, but the Apostles, and specifically himself. We know that's true because the next sentance he refers back to the Ephesians (the "whom" wo also trusted after they heard the Gospel), thus showing a role of of teacher/disciple-ship. The Jews didn't trust in Christ as a group, the Apostles did and they (each of them, being hand picked specifically) were predestined to preach. Yes, each individual of that particular Church was also predestined.

I was thinking about this particular thread a few days ago.... Another individual who was predestined? John the Baptist... His entire life was laid out and foretold before he was even conceived, and he was actually praising Jesus while still in his mother's womb!

 

[Quantrill]

FHI

Amen to that brother.

Quantrill

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass

Sorry, but 'us' in Eph. 1: is to the individual. It is the individuals. 'Chosen Us'.

You say God never determined who would be those who are in Christ. Foolish statement.

Rom. 8:29-30 " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predistinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Four times God uses the word 'whom'. That is to the individual. The individual He foreknew. The individual He predestianted. The individual He called. The individual He justified. The individual He glorified.

Quantrill

In Ephesians 1:1 Paul is addressing "saints" the "faithful in Christ Jesus" that is, he is addressing a group, the church not a certain individual. So when Paul says "us" he is referring to and included himself in this group of saints. Nowhere at all is Paul addressing a certain individual as being predestined but the group saints, those in Christ. And those that obey the gospel become part of the foreknow group and take on the foreknown traits. Calvinistic election puts guilt, blame culpability upon God for the lost when God has none therefore Calvinistic election should be rejected

Rom 8:29,30 "for whom He did foreknow" the whom refers to the group Christian the " them that love God" "them who are the called" in v28. No one was ever part of this group unconditionally, that is, part of this group without loving God.

To nail that down more Quantrill, in Eph 1 Paul notes a second time the act of predestination when he says, "in whom [Christ] also we have obtained and inheritiance, being predestinated according to him who worketh all things after the council of his own will, that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation...."

The "we" is not the Jews or the gentiles, but the Apostles, and specifically himself. We know that's true because the next sentance he refers back to the Ephesians (the "whom" wo also trusted after they heard the Gospel), thus showing a role of of teacher/disciple-ship. The Jews didn't trust in Christ as a group, the Apostles did and they (each of them, being hand picked specifically) were predestined to preach. Yes, each individual of that particular Church was also predestined.

I was thinking about this particular thread a few days ago.... Another individual who was predestined? John the Baptist... His entire life was laid out and foretold before he was even conceived, and he was actually praising Jesus while still in his mother's womb!

"Us" and "we" refer a group not an individual.

 

[FHII]

"Us" and "we" refer a group not an individual.

No, it's not.... I proved that... Perhaps you didn't read my whole post. I've noticed that you cut your reading short.... You don't read all the relevant information, so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't read my whole post.

It's referring to a group of 12 individuals. I can actually name all of them, and so can you. Well, maybe you can....

Ernest T. Bass... Are you a real person or just repeating party lines? I doubt you are really an individual person....

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No, it's not.... I proved that... Perhaps you didn't read my whole post. I've noticed that you cut your reading short.... You don't read all the relevant information, so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't read my whole post.

It's referring to a group of 12 individuals. I can actually name all of them, and so can you. Well, maybe you can....

Ernest T. Bass... Are you a real person or just repeating party lines? I doubt you are really an individual person....

Eph 1:1-7


1-Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus (Saints/Christians):

2-Grace be to you (Saints/Christians), and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3-Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us (Saints/CHristians) with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4-According as he hath chosen us (Saints/Christians) in him before the foundation of the world, that we (Saints/Christians) should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5-Having predestinated us (Saints/Christians) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6-To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us (Saints/Christians) accepted in the beloved.

7-In whom we (Saints/Christians) have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Not a single place in this context does Paul mention just certain individuals that God foreknew unconditionally.

The saints, Christians are the "us' and 'we' in this context.

Note the "us" in verse 3 are "in Christ".

In verse 4 the "us" are in Him (CHrist)

Verse 6 the "us" are in the beloved (CHrist)

Verse 7 the "we" are "in whom" (Christ)


The group Christians are the ones "in Christ" and no individual has ever been in Christ unconditionally. One has to meet the conditions of belief, repentance, confession and baptism to be in this group (Christian) that is in Christ.

11- In whom also we (Saints'/Christians) have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The "we" in v11 does not just refer to the apostles but refers to the same group; Saints/CHristians that the 'we' and 'us' in verses 1-7 refers to, that group being, Saints/Chrisitans who are IN CHRIST and the apostles are not the only ones in Christ, all Saints/Christians are in Christ.

So anyone who is a Christian today can read themselves into the 'we' and 'us'.

13-In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

The whom here is Christ. Verse 15 the Ephesians faith/belief was in the Lord Jesus.



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What verse says John the Baptists whole life was laid out for him and he had no choice in any of it?