Romans 9 Vs. Calvinism

[FHII]

The saints listed were at Ephesus.... That is noted. So there were some saints with names that this letter reached to whom Paul was writing to. It was also addressed to the rest of us. See... You can underline the word saints, and not underline the words "which are at Ephesus", but that doesn't mean you can exclude them. It only means you have excluded them to make your point.

What verse says John the Baptist's whole life was laid out? You got to be kidding me! I mean.... Gabriel told it to Zacharias...It's in the Bible! "Oh, well! HE had a choice!" Yea? You tell me which verse says he did! He had as much a choice as Zacharias had in chosing his name! There's "free will" for you!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The saints listed were at Ephesus.... That is noted. So there were some saints with names that this letter reached to whom Paul was writing to. It was also addressed to the rest of us. See... You can underline the word saints, and not underline the words "which are at Ephesus", but that doesn't mean you can exclude them. It only means you have excluded them to make your point.

What verse says John the Baptist's whole life was laid out? You got to be kidding me! I mean.... Gabriel told it to Zacharias...It's in the Bible! "Oh, well! HE had a choice!" Yea? You tell me which verse says he did! He had as much a choice as Zacharias had in chosing his name! There's "free will" for you!

There are saints/Christians everywhere then and today, not just at Ephesus. It is only that group that is "in Christ" and people are in that group today as back then.

There is no verse that says John's life was all predetermined for him, he did all he did by choice.

 

[FHII]

Eph 1:1 Paul, and Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful in Christ Jesus.


Luke 1:13-17

But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zachaias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom ......

Seems like a pretty good synopsis of his life to me given before he was even conceived. I don't see many times the angel said anyone had a choice. Can you show me where?
You know what the real kicker is? Zacharias tried to object to some degree and questioned the angel about how this was going to happen, and for all practical purposes, the Angel told him to shut up! And Zacharias, out of his own free will, kept his mouth shut for over 9 months! :lol:

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Eph 1:1 Paul, and Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful in Christ Jesus.


Luke 1:13-17

But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zachaias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom ......

Seems like a pretty good synopsis of his life to me given before he was even conceived. I don't see many times the angel said anyone had a choice. Can you show me where?

You know what the real kicker is? Zacharias tried to object to some degree and questioned the angel about how this was going to happen, and for all practical purposes, the Angel told him to shut up! And Zacharias, out of his own free will, kept his mouth shut for over 9 months! :lol:

God foreknowing John's life does not mean his life was predestined. God choose certain men for He foreknew what they would do. God foreknew how Saul would react when confronted in a bright light. God foreknew Saul would react positive and of his own fee will choose to convert to Christianity and spread the gospel. This was not something God preordained and forced Saul to do. God does not have to preordain what He knows men will freely choose and John and Saul freely chose to live as they did and God used their chooses to further His will.

People as Zacharias, being punished does not mean they have no free will. God punished Jonah, but that did not mean Jonah had no free will.



Did Hitler of his own free will commit those atrocities or did God force Hitler to commit those atrocities?

 

[aspen]

People are very predictable - our motivation for action is most often fear or a quest for unique experiences. Just look at people in a crowd. We are about as complicated in our motivations as fish in an aquarium. Not sure why people have such a hard time with the idea of predestination. I can know exactly what my dogs will do in every situation, based on the environment I choose for them, but they are not predestined - they have free will......and yet I can still know how they will behave based on their six primary motivations - companionship, sick, hungry, bored, sleepy, elimination.

 

[FHII]

Aspen, John wasn't even conceived yet and God's angel spelled out his life before his dad. I don't understand how anyone can disagree that John was chosen and predestinated to do exactly what he did. I mean... The guy was praising Jesus before he was even born! And the angel said he would....

I mean... Go ahead and call that free will if you want... But when God consistently calls the shots and they actually happen... It really makes me wonder about this whole "free will" thing. It makes me think that God ordained it to happen, and since it did, nothing was going to prevent it from happening.

I have always wondered if people who like the concept of free will do so because they want some credit.... They want to be able to tell someone what THEY did. What THEY gave up. What THEY sacrificed. What THEY decided.

 

[aspen]

Well, I did say that I chose the environment for my dogs predictable behavior - I think God does something similar - it just seems to me that both free will and determinism can actually co-exist. However, I really doubt that people want to take credit for their actions at the expense of Gods sovereignty - that is the typical complaint from determinists - sovereignty over character of God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

But when God consistently calls the shots and they actually happen... It really makes me wonder about this whole "free will" thing. It makes me think that God ordained it to happen, and since it did, nothing was going to prevent it from happening.

If this is true, then God is a sinner. If God preordained people to sin (as Hitler) and they have no choice in what God forces them to do then God is the one culapble and accountable for all the sins committed for God is actually the one that committed the sins. SInners cannot be held accountable and culpable for what God forced them to do.

 

[FHII]

If this is true, then God is a sinner. If God preordained people to sin (as Hitler) and they have no choice in what God forces them to do then God is the one culapble and accountable for all the sins committed for God is actually the one that committed the sins. SInners cannot be held accountable and culpable for what God forced them to do.

I'd be real careful calling God a sinner.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'd be real careful calling God a sinner.

That is the consequence if man has no free will.