Hi Phoneman, Regarding your conclusions,
#1 BEFORE - “
Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.” (Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 KJV)
Here we see that before man begins, he simply doesn't exist, plain and simple. Please discard any ideas about “pre-existing souls that God injects into the bodies of His creatures to make them alive” to the trash bin of error. It simply isn't so.
While all scripture is good for “
doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness”, not all scripture contains all four. Ecc. is not the book for any kind of “sound doctrine” regarding death. While there are some things to be learned in that book, it is mostly the writings of a man “jaded” by his experiences. Written by someone who has “been there and done that” and still isn’t satisfied and is “despairing” in his later years. It is written by someone who has given up “hope” thus not a reliable source regarding the blessed hope within us.
#2 DURING - “
The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (Body), and breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life (Spirit), and man became a Living Soul. (Genesis 2:7 KJV)
Body + Spirit = Living Soul.
Here we see that man was not “given” a Soul, but that he IS a Soul. A Soul begins to exist at the moment the two components of it, which are the Spirit and the Body, are joined together. The human mind – the “I”, “Me”, “Ego”, “Self”, etc. – with its thoughts, emotions, memory, knowledge, wisdom, personality, intuition, and all other aspects of it, is properly identified with the Soul – not the Spirit – because the mind obviously did not exist apart from or prior to the existence of the Soul.
While man is a “spiritual being”, your “math” is wrong as the word “spirit” as you intended, imo, is the wrong definition. It should be Body + Air = Living Creature (Soul), in this way it describes all fish, mammals and plants as well. Man (plus all the other created creatures), at this time (before the fall) were eternal beings. The “fall” introduced death (eventually) into the world! At the point of creation, Adam hadn’t had time to develop the “
“I”, “Me”, “Ego”, “Self”, etc. – with its thoughts, emotions, memory, knowledge, wisdom, personality, intuition, and all other aspects of it” to qualify as a spirit. It is wrong to take the first created man and supply him with the same characteristics that define the rest of humanity after the fall. As a created “eternal being” he was more like the angels than we are now. The “spirit” (the eternal part of us inherited since the fall, and as we know it today), came after.
Your words: "It is through FALSELY identifying these aspects of the human mind with the “Spirit” instead of the “Soul” that the distortion of the truth of the afterlife is accomplished, as revealed in # 3.
#3 AFTER - “
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the Spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV)
Body – Spirit = Dead Soul.
According to James 2:26 KJV, the body without the Spirit is dead. The Spirit returns to God, the Body returns to the earth. Since every aspect of our existence originated and existed solely down here and since at no time during our existence have we ever departed from the heavenly courts up there, how is it that it is claimed that "we" return to God at death? How can "we" return to a place from which we have never departed? Can "we" return to the Sun? Or to the Moon? (well, maybe if you're John Glenn or one of those guys) Then how can "we" return with the Spirit to God?
Again, the “math” equation is wrong. It should be Body – Air = Dead Living Creature. The “spirit” spoken of in James 2:26 is that “air” or breath of life” aspect of the word “spirit” NOT the eternal spirit that is our “rational and immortal” souls. Since the fall, I believe we all receive our eternal spirits (from God) upon conception, which is the main reason most Christians are against abortion. So, yes, our spirits can return to God, who gave us it in the first place.
Your words – “
Again, it is through falsely identifying the human mind with the Spirit, which does indeed return to God at death, instead of properly identifying it with the Soul, which is utterly dependent on the union of the Body and the Spirit for it to exist. And since this union is broken at death, the undesired, unpopular, though unavoidable conclusion is that the Soul ceases to exist at death – aka Annihilation. Suddenly, all those verses in the Bible which point to death as a state of insensibility where there is not the existence of love, hatred, knowledge, wisdom, emotion, reasoning, and even praise and worship makes sense.”
Sorry, but there isn’t that many that speak of death as you describe except maybe for those in Ecc. which I’ve shown is an unreliable source for this topic, thus your conclusions are based on false concepts. Even if one could show that your description of death was the OT norm (which you can’t), Jesus changed everything when He defeated death at the cross!
Your words: “
This is why Paul called the coming of Jesus and the resurrection He brings with Him the “Blessed Hope” and why he directs us to comfort the bereaving saints with words of that Blessed Hope, and not with words that our beloved dead are in the presence of God.”
Sorry, but resurrection (alone) is not in sight in regards to the Blessed Hope. It is the combined rapture/resurrection that is being spoken of in
Titus 2:13 – “
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
Paul has Matt. 24:30-31 in mind here: “
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
This is echoed in Paul’s exhortation to “comfort one another” as found in 1 Thess. 4:16-18 – “
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
The Blessed Hope (rapture/resurrection) is called our “redemption” in Luke 21:25-28 – “
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”
Now I need to clarify that this has nothing to do with the timing of the resurrection/rapture and everything to do with just the plain fact of it!
Since the fall the equation has become Body + Air + Immortal Spirit = Man, an eternal Soul/Spirit. It could be said that the eternal Soul = the eternal spirit,
identified by the “
thoughts, emotions, memory, knowledge, wisdom, personality, intuition, and all other aspects of it”! (How we will be known), in my opinion.
See, I have become intrigued by this topic now. With your post, I feel it has drifted off from what ATP is asking. Simply because he wants to know what "sleep" means in the Bible. I read your post to say he is being lied to. How does that connect to what he is asking? I ask the same question. How does that connect to "Sleep"?
