Sabbath or no Sabbath?

[Arnie Manitoba]

.
An orthodox Jew considers Saturday as the Sabbath and it begins Friday at sundown and ends Saturday at sundown.

He has no watch or calendar while he works in the high arctic , it is wintertime and the sun doesn't appears for three months .

When does his sabbath begin and end.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

The bible says

HEBREWS 4 [10] For HE THAT IS ENTERED INTO HIS REST, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS. [11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Well...Ya see what it says. Now lets see how God rested from His work

HEBREWS 4 [4] For he spake in a certain place of THE SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY from all his works

Yup. God rested the 7th day. Pretty simple

Did I say that God didn't rest on the 7th day?

Sure wish I knew how to use the quote thingy

The quote button puts the entire post into the editor inside a quote box. If you don't want to include the entire post then just remove all the text that you don't want there. After that, click in the editor just under the box and write in your response.

And the multi-quote thingy

I don't use the MultQuote button, I have no idea how it works. What I usually do is use the quote button for the first quote, then the surround the next quote with the HTML-tags used for quoting. Unfortunately I cannot write them directly here because the browser would turn them into quote boxes, but this is what you do:

* Write in the opening tag by typing in a left square bracket "[" then write the word "quote" and then the right sqare bracket "]".

* Then include the text for that quote.

* Then write the closing quote tag: type in a left square bracket and a backslash "[\" then write the word "quote" and then the right sqare bracket "]".

Then when you click on the Post button, hey presto, you will see muliple quote boxes. Sometimes the spacing between the text and the boxes doesn't look good, so I usually Edit the text again and try to make it look neat, but that depends on how fussy you are.

Hope that helps. But just let me know otherwise and we'll see what the problem might be.

I am not an SDA if that's what you're referring to, but I'd like to point out some things.

When you saw Old Covenant law, are you speaking of the meat, drink, holydays, new moons, and sabbath days? If so, we don't have to do that.

Oh, I hate the way this site merges posts together... anyway..

There is nothing in the entire old coventant law that we need to be concerned about other than what the new covenant explicitly points out. The new covenant is not like the old coventant:

"It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD." Jeremiah 31:32

The new covenant is radically different from the old covenant. It is not be based on trying to obey a static code of law, but rather is conscience-based, which is difficult for us to comprehend and adapt to.

But there is another very important difference that you can see in the verse above. Notice that God includes the reason why it is so different. The old covenant was given to the Jews because they broke the previous covenant! He says "because they broke my coventant". That cannot be the same covenant he is giving them because it wouldn't make sense. You cannot break a convenant that you haven't been given yet.

The covenant they broke is the gospel - the covenant of faith. Hebrews 4 teaches us that the gospel was preached to them just as it was to us. How could that be? The answer is that the gospel is nothing more than righteousness by faith - in whatever form that might be. To Abraham it was to offer his son, leave the country he was living in, and whatever other things God commanded him to do. The bottom line is that he had faith in whatever the Lord said to him.

The gospel for the Jews is that God would deliver them from slavery in Egypt and bring them to the land he had promised them.

The gospel for us is to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead and confess Jesus as Lord.

The bottom line is that the "spiritual milk" for all these "gospels" is Christ.

So there, we have no requirement to do those things. But it is a mistake to believe that means we don't have to obey the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are eternal, and we find them established throughout the New Covenant.

In order to have a good foundation in the truth, one needs to distinguish between "fine-sounding" arguments and "sound doctrine". Right at the start of Colossians 2, which is the chapter in contention, you can read:

"I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments."

Sound doctrine, on the other hand is that which conforms to the gospel:

"for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." (1 Tim 1:10,11)

Now I know now that you are not an Adventist, but you are using similar arguments that they use. These arguments have a "form of godliness" about them but they break one very important rule that Paul layed out for us: "do not go beyond what is written".

Saying that the 10 commandments are "permanent" because they were "written by the hand of God", or "written on stone rather than parchment", or "were placed in the Ark of the Covenant" and similar arguments, all sound good and reasonable, but does scripture say these things itself, or are adding to scripture something that isn't there?

The fact of the matter is that none of these arguments "conform to the gospel". In fact they contradict it. 2 Cor 3:7-11 speaks about the permanance of the 10 commandments:

"Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

We should never use fine-sounding arguments to nullify clear scripture!

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
A study will show that the ark of his testament only has it's name because it holds the tables of the testament/covenant/testimony. Did you know the 10 commandments are called the ten words or the ten utterances? And do you know what God has to say about those utterances?

The Ark of the Covenant that is in heaven is not the same one that was here on earth. The Levite priests served at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven, and Paul points out that even the law was a shadow of the good things that are coming. Since the new covenant has "surpassing glory" in comparison to the old covenant, I suggest that the Ark of the Covenant is the Ark of the New covenant, with the law of Christ inside, but that is going beyond what is written so I don't base my theology on it. But it is well worth considering.

However, let us assume that the stone tablets are in the Ark of the Covenant in heaven. I don't have any problem with that, because as scripture says, the law is good, holy and righteous and perfect. The promblem is that perfection is the whole problem for us. Paradoxically, rather than making US perfect, it kills us. We die if we get too close to God, and similarly the perfection of the law just brings death and condemnation as 2 Cor 3:7-9 clearly point out. The law IS perfect, but it MAKES nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19).

 

[tom55]

UppsalaDragby said:


Well what exactly is meant by "observance of the sabbath"? If it is the old conventant legalistic setting aside of a 24-hour day during which no work is to be done then what scriptural support is there in the NT? (Let me give you a hint - there is NONE whatsoever.)


I say: Set aside the old covenant? Why would we do that when Jesus said keep the commandments and then named several of the ten commandments? Let me give you a hint...that is in the New Testament.

What does UppsalaDragby mean or stand for or is it a combination of words? I'm just curious and you don't have to answer.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

UppsalaDragby said:


Well what exactly is meant by "observance of the sabbath"? If it is the old conventant legalistic setting aside of a 24-hour day during which no work is to be done then what scriptural support is there in the NT? (Let me give you a hint - there is NONE whatsoever.)


I say: Set aside the old covenant? Why would we do that when Jesus said keep the commandments and then named several of the ten commandments? Let me give you a hint...that is in the New Testament.

What does UppsalaDragby mean or stand for or is it a combination of words? I'm just curious and you don't have to answer.

I don't mind answering Tom. That is what I am here for.

Jesus said keep the commandments and was then asked "Which ones" and then he named some of them. Notice firstly that he answered the question and pointed out "which ones". Nowhere did he say anything about obeying the Mosaic form of "keeping the sabbath".

We also "keep the sabbath" but we observe the true sabbath by resting from legalistic works.

Notice also that the man asking the question understood that there was more to it than that, which is why he continued to ask Jesus what he needed to do. Jesus did not say that obeying the commandments were enough, did he?

I am a Little curious tooTom.. did you read my last post and do you have any comments about that?

Also, since you don't believe that the old covenant has been set aside, what do you make of Paul's claims that it has ben set aside:

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4)

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13)

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law." (Galatians 5:18)

... not to mention 2 Cor 3:7-11 which even specifically points out the 10 commandments.

 

[tom55]

I don't mind answering Tom. That is what I am here for.

You didn't answer my most burning question. What does your name mean? :huh:



Jesus said keep the commandments and was then asked "Which ones" and then he named some of them. Notice firstly that he answered the question and pointed out "which ones". Nowhere did he say anything about obeying the Mosaic form of "keeping the sabbath".

I agree he didn't specifically say keep the Sabbath but He referred to five of the ten commandments which is a very heavy implication of keeping the ten commandments with one of them being keep holy the Sabbath. Do you think He intentionally left it out because it wasn't important?



Notice also that the man asking the question understood that there was more to it than that, which is why he continued to ask Jesus what he needed to do. Jesus did not say that obeying the commandments were enough, did he?

I agree He did not say that "obeying the commandments were enough". He fully answered the question by saying, "go and sell your possessions and give to the poor". But what does that have to do with the original question put forth in the original post by Gracealone? Jesus said keep the commandments and we all know that keep holy the Sabbath is one of them. Therefor the original question put forth by Gracealone has been answered with biblical support from the old and new testament.



I am a Little curious tooTom.. did you read my last post and do you have any comments about that?

No! Because it is off topic and I didn't see anything in there referencing the question from the original post. Also, you were talking to someone else, not me. So why would I comment about it? Does that answer satisfy your curiosity?



Also, since you don't believe that the old covenant has been set aside, what do you make of Paul's claims that it has ben set aside

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4)

You misquoted your reference...It doesn't say "end of the law" it says "culmination of the law". Culmination is a final point of activity or bringing something to a climax. So couldn't the quote mean he has brought the laws to their final point? Meaning He has added to the laws and no more can be added?

I assume what you mean by the "old covenant" you mean (at least in part) the ten commandments? If so, I do not believe that the old covenant (ten commandments) has been set aside.



"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13)


If you would be honest enough to quote the entire scripture (Hebrews 8: 7-13) your reference to Hebrew would be in context. If you put it in context, your own argument has been defeated. The covenant is the agreement between God and the ancient Israelites in which God promised to protect them if they kept His law and were faithful to Him. It seems to me you are saying that the entire old testament has been nullified because "he has made the first one obsolete". At least that what I think you are trying to say, but maybe I'm wrong?

 

[Raeneske]

.
An orthodox Jew considers Saturday as the Sabbath and it begins Friday at sundown and ends Saturday at sundown.

He has no watch or calendar while he works in the high arctic , it is wintertime and the sun doesn't appears for three months .

When does his sabbath begin and end.

That wouldn't deter an obedient soul from trying to keep the Seventh Day Sabbath. I've heard some people do a 6 pm to 6 pm Sabbath, maybe that would work out for him. As for not having a watch, I'm sure he would find some way to be able to tell the time. An obedient soul wouldn't shrug off Sabbath observance. He'd find out somehow.

Oh, I hate the way this site merges posts together... anyway..

There is nothing in the entire old coventant law that we need to be concerned about other than what the new covenant explicitly points out. The new covenant is not like the old coventant:

"It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD." Jeremiah 31:32

The new covenant is radically different from the old covenant. It is not be based on trying to obey a static code of law, but rather is conscience-based, which is difficult for us to comprehend and adapt to.

But there is another very important difference that you can see in the verse above. Notice that God includes the reason why it is so different. The old covenant was given to the Jews because they broke the previous covenant! He says "because they broke my coventant". That cannot be the same covenant he is giving them because it wouldn't make sense. You cannot break a convenant that you haven't been given yet.

The covenant they broke is the gospel - the covenant of faith. Hebrews 4 teaches us that the gospel was preached to them just as it was to us. How could that be? The answer is that the gospel is nothing more than righteousness by faith - in whatever form that might be. To Abraham it was to offer his son, leave the country he was living in, and whatever other things God commanded him to do. The bottom line is that he had faith in whatever the Lord said to him.

The gospel for the Jews is that God would deliver them from slavery in Egypt and bring them to the land he had promised them.

The gospel for us is to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead and confess Jesus as Lord.

The bottom line is that the "spiritual milk" for all these "gospels" is Christ.



In order to have a good foundation in the truth, one needs to distinguish between "fine-sounding" arguments and "sound doctrine". Right at the start of Colossians 2, which is the chapter in contention, you can read:

"I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments."

Sound doctrine, on the other hand is that which conforms to the gospel:

"for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." (1 Tim 1:10,11)

Now I know now that you are not an Adventist, but you are using similar arguments that they use. These arguments have a "form of godliness" about them but they break one very important rule that Paul layed out for us: "do not go beyond what is written".

Saying that the 10 commandments are "permanent" because they were "written by the hand of God", or "written on stone rather than parchment", or "were placed in the Ark of the Covenant" and similar arguments, all sound good and reasonable, but does scripture say these things itself, or are adding to scripture something that isn't there?

The fact of the matter is that none of these arguments "conform to the gospel". In fact they contradict it. 2 Cor 3:7-11 speaks about the permanance of the 10 commandments:

"Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

We should never use fine-sounding arguments to nullify clear scripture!


The Ark of the Covenant that is in heaven is not the same one that was here on earth. The Levite priests served at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven, and Paul points out that even the law was a shadow of the good things that are coming. Since the new covenant has "surpassing glory" in comparison to the old covenant, I suggest that the Ark of the Covenant is the Ark of the New covenant, with the law of Christ inside, but that is going beyond what is written so I don't base my theology on it. But it is well worth considering.

However, let us assume that the stone tablets are in the Ark of the Covenant in heaven. I don't have any problem with that, because as scripture says, the law is good, holy and righteous and perfect. The promblem is that perfection is the whole problem for us. Paradoxically, rather than making US perfect, it kills us. We die if we get too close to God, and similarly the perfection of the law just brings death and condemnation as 2 Cor 3:7-9 clearly point out. The law IS perfect, but it MAKES nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19).

I hope by conscience based you don't mean that whatsoever we feel is right in our heart, that do. Remember the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. There are good consciences and bad consciences. Some may say "My conscience doesn't condemn me for not keeping the commandments of God". There is enough Scripture to prove that one should keep all the commandments, including the Sabbath. We have freedom to choose whichever way we want to go. But we need to make the Word of God our guide.

Paul makes an argument about obeying the spirit of the law.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Paul is telling us to serve in the newness of spirit, instead of the oldness of letter: That is, we should keep ever keep in mind serving the law in the spirit, instead of looking at just the letter. But when you keep the spirit of the law, you will also be found keeping the letter of the law. Jesus taught the spirit of the law. For example, murder:


Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Does the newness of spirit nullify the law? No, it does not. You must keep thou shalt not kill. The same follows for adultery. You must spiritually keep it and literally keep it. Do you see where I am going with this? If we have the heart to try to keep it spiritually, we will try to keep it literally. Would it be wise to say "I love God with all my heart, soul, and mind. But you know, I like this statue of pizza. And this may look like idolatry on the outside, but on the inside, my heart is with God. I am not worshiping this idol in my heart." and then they proceed to bow down to the idol? No, because it's blatant idolatry and the Word of God says not to do it. It doesn't make sense to say we obey in spirit, or that we obey the law of Christ, yet we are blatantly disobeying what Christ taught.

The Sabbath commandment is no different. How can one say they are keeping the Sabbath, yet they are blatantly disobeying it? It makes no sense. It makes as much sense as saying I love my wife so much, I don't cheat on her in my heart, but I will literally cheat on her.

Just because we are not in the same covenant doesn't mean that some of the principles of the Old Covenant aren't in the New Covenant. Romans 3:31 says the law is established. Romans 6:14-15 tells us we may not sin though we are under grace. 1 John 3:4 tells us that sin is the transgression of the law. Therefore: The 10 commandments are established in the new covenant. We may not break the ten commandments though we are under grace.

As the Jews were delivered from slavery in Egypt, so are we delivered from slavery from sin. We are given the strength to obey God, and that we are to do. This includes keeping the Sabbath.

Paul is not saying the ten commandments have been done away with. This would be something Peter says about having things in them (Paul's epistles) that some things are hard to be understood. Paul showed the commandments established in his epistle to the Romans. In fact, if you look at Romans 13:8-10 you see him telling people that Love is the fulfilling of the law. If you love, you will fulfill the law. You love therefore the commandments are kept by you. If you break the commandments, you obviously don't love God or your neighbor. And this logic will follow suit for every single commandment except for number four when people come to it. Love is the fulfilling of the law. If you fulfill the law, you are loving God and your neighbor.

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

The Law is perfect and converts the soul. Hebrews 7:19 isn't talking about the ten commandments. That is talking about the Levitical law.

Paul spoke to the Corinthians about the law being written in our heart now. Go back to verse 3 of 2nd Corinthians. Not written in stone but in fleshly tables of the heart. Paul is not saying that we don't have to keep the commandments anymore. He is showing that one is written in the heart, as the other was on stone. One was glorious, yet to be written in our heart is far more glorious. The only reason such glory is done away is because this a greater manifestation of the power of God. The man or woman who converts has the law written in their hearts. This is far more glorious than it being written on stone. God's finger wrote on stone the law. Yes, far glorious. But God wants to do something greater. He wants to write that law in our hearts. And such glory excels the glory of the law being written in stone. The law still exists, but it is in our hearts now.

In Scripture the only reason for the name of the Ark of the Covenant/Testament/Testimony is because it is the receptacle of the ten commandments. For the temple of heaven to be opened for us to know that the law is in heaven speaks volumes against those who advocate against the commandments. Whether they advocate against all ten or just one makes no difference. If you keep the law in love, yet offend in one point, you are guilty of breaking them all.

As I said before, the ten commandments show the character of Christ. Those who only look at the letter of the law cannot see that. But those who see the letter and the spirit of the law may indeed see that. As I said, it is Christ that rested upon the seventh day Sabbath, and set it apart for Holy use. He created us, and the day afterwards was set aside. It was revealed to us in the New Testament that we weren't made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for us. It is the same with every single commandment. It is made and meant to be obeyed for the goodness of humanity. Of course Christ wants to help us and be with us every day of the week. But the Sabbath is a special day of the week, which He set aside for us to come away from all worldly labor and worldly business, etc. It is one very special day, one entire day set apart for our good. And that is why it is in the Law. Christ set apart the seventh day so we can rest and worship Him. So if one wants to say they are obeying the law of Christ, they should consider what Christ set apart for them in Genesis.

 

[iWrecknSow]

The early Christians were actually givin many warnings about the bad guys and how they would change Gods day of rest. The warnings are all around the new testament.

1 PETER 5 [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a ROARING LION, walketh about, SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR:

Watch out for these roaring lions!

MATT.7 [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are RAVENING WOLVES.

Beware of false these prophets. They are RAVENING WOLVES. Also implied here is that “the many” will follow these false prophets and but a few will take the way of life.

ACTS 20 [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous WOLVES ENTER IN among you, not sparing the flock.[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES after them.

The GRIEVOUS WOLVES were there from the beginning

EPH.4 [17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth WALK NOT AS OTHER GENTILES walk, in the VANITY of their mind,[18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:[19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all UNCLEANNESS with GREEDINESS.

Well, I found all these warnings from the new testament in one scripture. The Day of the Lord scriptures are so great. Since “that day” has not yet arrived no one can claim that the scripture is for ancient Israel and does not apply to christians. Day of the Lord scriptures do apply to christians (those who believe that Jesus came) and these scriptures will come to pass. To see what these ROARING LIONS and RAVENOUS WOLVES have done, simply read and believe the Word.

EZEK.22 [23] And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,[24] Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.[25] There is A CONSPIRACY OF HER PROPHETS in the midst thereof, like a ROARING LION ravening the prey; THEY HAVE DEVOURED SOULS; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.[26] HER PRIESTS HAVE VIOLATED MY LAW, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the UNCLEAN AND THE CLEAN, and HAVE HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS, and I am profaned among them.[27] Her princes in the midst thereof are like WOLVES RAVENING THE PREY, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get DISHONEST GAIN.[28] And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, SEEING VANITY, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken

A conspiracy of the prophets. HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS! They meant to do it and they sure did pull it off despite the warnings

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

That wouldn't deter an obedient soul from trying to keep the Seventh Day Sabbath. I've heard some people do a 6 pm to 6 pm Sabbath, maybe that would work out for him. As for not having a watch, I'm sure he would find some way to be able to tell the time. An obedient soul wouldn't shrug off Sabbath observance. He'd find out somehow.

Certainly ....and my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek meant to jab at the Sabbath purist.

I know a dedicated SDA member who is fanatical about his Saturday Sabbath , he is so caught up in it he thinks he could go to hell if he did not observe Sabbath properly. He was always worried I would go to hell by using Sunday as Sabbath.

I asked him what would happen if we were stranded on a remote island , no clocks or calendars ... we had lost track of what day it was on the Gregorian calendar.

What day would we pick as sabbath.

He thought long and hard and said .... it wouldn't matter , as long as we rested on every seventh day .

I asked ..... would it matter if 10 years later we were rescued and our 7th day turned out to be Tuesday on the Gregorian calendar.

He thought long and hard and said no .... the main thing is we took a 7th day Sabbath

Then I asked him what if it turned out our 7th day of rest was on a Sunday on the Gregorian Calendar.

Boy was he ever mad .

There is a lesson in there somewhere.

It gets even worse .... now I observe both Saturday and Sunday

Drives some people bonkers

And that is the whole purpose , and it saves a lot of arguing over nothing.

By the way , between the two ..... Saturday always "feels like the real Sabbath " to me.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sabbath observance as law is such an archaic notion. The Israelites had the sabbath, but didn't have the holy spirit. They needed the sabbath to dwell on and be reminded of GOD's goodness. Now we have the holy spirit and know GOD personally every moment of every day. Clinging to the sabbath is like clinging to bicycle training wheels after one learns how to ride a bicycle.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

You didn't answer my most burning question. What does your name mean? :huh:

I'm sorry, I missed that one.. I know, my name is a silly one and I regret using it, but I couldn't think of anything better at the time. It is a combination of words. Uppsala is a city in Sweden where I presently live and Dragby is a small town out in the country where I lived some years ago.

I agree he didn't specifically say keep the Sabbath but He referred to five of the ten commandments which is a very heavy implication of keeping the ten commandments with one of them being keep holy the Sabbath. Do you think He intentionally left it out because it wasn't important?

Well I can see what you are getting at, but I don't think he left the others out because they weren't important, but because at that time their understanding of these commands was flawed, just as 2 Cor 3:14 says:

"But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away."

They didn't understand what the law was all about. The law was powerless to solve the problem at hand. It didn't give them any moral fibre. On the contrary, it served to increase sin, not decrease it. Just as the apostle Paul pointed out. The law itself is not sin, but it was "added so that the trespass might increase".

Also, the law was made for "lawbreakers", not for the righteous, which as a very misunderstood point. Once we are born again we are no longer under the supervision of the law (Galatians 3:25). Why not? Doesn't removing a law, for example against stealing imply that it is "alright to steal"? No, of course not! Such a law is only necessary for theives, because it their "nature" to steal. Therefore they need a law to supervise them. Someone who is reborn in Christ has God's nature "shed abroad in their hearts" and that is what supervises them.

To willingly place oneself under the Mosaic law is an implicit admission that one is a lawbreaker, because that law was given to such people. However to place oneself under the Law of Christ, which is a law for the righteous, guarantees that we remain in Christ and inherit the promises that God has given us.

I agree He did not say that "obeying the commandments were enough". He fully answered the question by saying, "go and sell your possessions and give to the poor". But what does that have to do with the original question put forth in the original post by Gracealone? Jesus said keep the commandments and we all know that keep holy the Sabbath is one of them. Therefor the original question put forth by Gracealone has been answered with biblical support from the old and new testament.

Well I don't quite agree with that. Jesus could easily have answered the question by saying "obey the ten commandments", which would have been much easier than listing five of them, but he didn't. He could also have said "obey the law", but the result would have been the same. I think Jesus was fishing - getting this man, and everyone else, to understand the futility of legalism. He was polarizing acts of "righteousness", which can be based on selfish ambition, with acts that are based on compassion and faith. Remember what the Law of Christ is - to believe in the Son of God and to love one another.

No! Because it is off topic and I didn't see anything in there referencing the question from the original post. Also, you were talking to someone else, not me. So why would I comment about it? Does that answer satisfy your curiosity?

OK, fair enough, I just wanted to avoid repeating myself. I have quite a few conversations going on right now...

You misquoted your reference...It doesn't say "end of the law" it says "culmination of the law". Culmination is a final point of activity or bringing something to a climax. So couldn't the quote mean he has brought the laws to their final point? Meaning He has added to the laws and no more can be added?

Both the KJV and the NIV and most other translations say "end of the law" and so does Stongs so how can you claim that I "misquoted" anything? Besides, I base my claims on the testimony of "two or three witnesses" not just one verse that "could" mean something else.
I assume what you mean by the "old covenant" you mean (at least in part) the ten commandments? If so, I do not believe that the old covenant (ten commandments) has been set aside.

I mean the entire Mosaic law including the 10 commandments. The only exception are those that new covenant scripture explicitly makes, such as "loving one's neighbor as oneself".

If you would be honest enough to quote the entire scripture (Hebrews 8: 7-13) your reference to Hebrew would be in context. If you put it in context, your own argument has been defeated. The covenant is the agreement between God and the ancient Israelites in which God promised to protect them if they kept His law and were faithful to Him. It seems to me you are saying that the entire old testament has been nullified because "he has made the first one obsolete". At least that what I think you are trying to say, but maybe I'm wrong?

Please do not imply that I am being dishonest. If you have a point then I will consider it. I am quite willing to be corrected and I don't claim that I never miss anything, but I am definitely not being dishonest. Having said that, I don't understand what you think there is in the context of Hebrews 8:7-13 that "defeats my argument".

I hope by conscience based you don't mean that whatsoever we feel is right in our heart, that do. Remember the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. There are good consciences and bad consciences. Some may say "My conscience doesn't condemn me for not keeping the commandments of God". There is enough Scripture to prove that one should keep all the commandments, including the Sabbath. We have freedom to choose whichever way we want to go. But we need to make the Word of God our guide.

Well that is a discussion that could lead just about anywhere at all, so I don't know if it is worth responding to. Of course I am not saying something along the lines of "anything that feels good, just do it". We need to remain in the Word, just as we need the Holy Spirit to reveal what scripture is saying. However, the fact of the matter is that scripture supports a certain amount of freedom as far as how we serve God as individuals. "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

Paul makes an argument about obeying the spirit of the law.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

I'm afraid that the words "spirit of the law" does not appear anywhere in that verse (nor anywhere else in the NT). It is very important not to add things to scripture that are not there. Scripture is complete. It was not left open so that we could project our own thoughts into the text.

Paul is telling us to serve in the newness of spirit, instead of the oldness of letter: That is, we should keep ever keep in mind serving the law in the spirit, instead of looking at just the letter. But when you keep the spirit of the law, you will also be found keeping the letter of the law. Jesus taught the spirit of the law. For example, murder:
Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Again, Paul never teaches us that we should focus on the law, with or without the Spirit. You are going beyond what is written. What Jesus was pointing out in Matthew 5 is that the mosaic law is limited in its ability to restrain evil thoughts. The only thing that can do that is focusing on Jesus, not the mosaic law. If anyone remains in Christ and fellowships with him, then evil thoughts are weeded out by the Spirit. The law is powerless to do that.

Does the newness of spirit nullify the law? No, it does not. You must keep thou shalt not kill. The same follows for adultery. You must spiritually keep it and literally keep it. Do you see where I am going with this?

Yes, you are implying that without the law we end up breaking the law, which actually nullifies the reason Christ was crucified. The law was not given to the righteous, but to lawbreakers. If you think you need the law in order to be righteous then you are rejecting the righteousness that we have received from God.

Someone who has been made righteous through faith is "no longer under the supervision of the law". But saying that you need the law to supervise you, you are doing nothing more than implicating youself as a lawbreaker.

The Sabbath commandment is no different. How can one say they are keeping the Sabbath, yet they are blatantly disobeying it? It makes no sense. It makes as much sense as saying I love my wife so much, I don't cheat on her in my heart, but I will literally cheat on her.

The sabbath commandment IS different. Scripture teaches us that it is a shadow, and Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-13 explains the reality that the shadow points to. The promise of "rest" was given to the Israelites through Joshua, not Moses, and since they rejected that rest, they were given a mere shadow. The promise however "remains" for everyone who believes.

NOTE: I have exceeded the number of quote boxes I can use, so your comment are now in blue.

"Just because we are not in the same covenant doesn't mean that some of the principles of the Old Covenant aren't in the New Covenant. Romans 3:31 says the law is established."


If you go up in Romans 3 to verse 21 you can read "a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify". Sure, the Law and the Prophets testify about this righteousness. However, it is a righteousness "apart from the law", not "together with the law", as you are suggesting.

"Romans 6:14-15 tells us we may not sin though we are under grace."

Did I say that we should sin because we are not under law but under grace? There is an obvious missunderstanding here. Paul is not saying that we should be under the law in order to avoid sinning If that was the case then he would have been contradicting his entire doctrine!

No. Paul is alluding to what he said in the previous chapter:

"The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more".

Obviously this verse could be twisted by unstable people to mean that since sin made grace increase, then perhaps we should go on sinning in order to get even more grace. Paul condemned such ideas. We are not to sin, but being under the law does not help us accomplish that task. What we need to do is what new covenant scripture teaches us to do - fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith.

"1 John 3:4 tells us that sin is the transgression of the law. Therefore: The 10 commandments are established in the new covenant. We may not break the ten commandments though we are under grace."

John never even mentioned the 10 commandments! What he was talking about was the law that applies to us - the law of Christ! Otherwise you might as well get curcumcised. John himself points out what that law is:

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." 1 John 3:23

"As the Jews were delivered from slavery in Egypt, so are we delivered from slavery from sin. We are given the strength to obey God, and that we are to do. This includes keeping the Sabbath."

Excellent. You recognize that being freed from bondage in Egypt is a shadow of salvation through faith, and yet you don't recognize that observing the 7th day sabbath is a shadow of that same faith, despite the fact that scripture tells us that it is! What's wrong with this picture?

"Paul is not saying the ten commandments have been done away with. This would be something Peter says about having things in them (Paul's epistles) that some things are hard to be understood."

Peter said nothing whatsoever to confirm you interpretation of what that misunderstanding was. I believe, based on scripture that it has to do with what I wrote above. And even Romans 3:8 confirms this:

"Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved."

What Paul was teaching was that the law not only made sin increase, but also grace. But as you pointed out he also said:

"For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."

Notice here though that it is because you are under grace, (and not under law) that you prevent sin from being your master! The law only makes sin increase.

 

[Raeneske]

Certainly ....and my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek meant to jab at the Sabbath purist.

I know a dedicated SDA member who is fanatical about his Saturday Sabbath , he is so caught up in it he thinks he could go to hell if he did not observe Sabbath properly. He was always worried I would go to hell by using Sunday as Sabbath.

I asked him what would happen if we were stranded on a remote island , no clocks or calendars ... we had lost track of what day it was on the Gregorian calendar.

What day would we pick as sabbath.

He thought long and hard and said .... it wouldn't matter , as long as we rested on every seventh day .

I asked ..... would it matter if 10 years later we were rescued and our 7th day turned out to be Tuesday on the Gregorian calendar.

He thought long and hard and said no .... the main thing is we took a 7th day Sabbath

Then I asked him what if it turned out our 7th day of rest was on a Sunday on the Gregorian Calendar.

Boy was he ever mad .

There is a lesson in there somewhere.

It gets even worse .... now I observe both Saturday and Sunday

Drives some people bonkers

And that is the whole purpose , and it saves a lot of arguing over nothing.

By the way , between the two ..... Saturday always "feels like the real Sabbath " to me.

In such an event if they did not really know when the Sabbath was, but wanted to keep the Sabbath I could see God accepting their sincerity. When rescued ten years later it would be wise to get back to the real seventh day Sabbath as the knowledge is made known unto them. If they found out the day they were keeping Sunday my point still remains. It would be wise to get back to the real seventh day Sabbath. God accepts the sincerity of those who are ignorant of the truth if their hearts are in the right place. As Christians progress in their lives they learn more about what they should and shouldn't do. Finding out when the true Sabbath is can be part of that spiritual growth.

There will come a time when you will have to choose one or the other. That's when the knowledge will be brought home to every conscience. There is a spiritual warfare against God's commandments going on. It started with the Sabbath, it then continues with all ten commandments, and soon they will try to replace the true Sabbath by force with the false sabbath. Friday Sundown to Saturday Sundown is the real Sabbath. The time is rapidly approaching when religious authorities try to enforce a sabbath law. Just like the old Pharisees mishandling the Sabbath, so will these people mishandle the sabbath as well.

Sabbath observance as law is such an archaic notion. The Israelites had the sabbath, but didn't have the holy spirit. They needed the sabbath to dwell on and be reminded of GOD's goodness. Now we have the holy spirit and know GOD personally every moment of every day. Clinging to the sabbath is like clinging to bicycle training wheels after one learns how to ride a bicycle.

The Israelites didn't have the Holy Spirit? What did David ask God not to take from him?

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

What moved the prophets to speak?


2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


What was in Daniel?

Daniel 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

Joseph?


Genesis 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

Christ kept the Sabbath. Was the only reason He kept it because He needed to be reminded of God's goodness? Christ knew God personally as well, far more personally than we do actually, even with the Holy Ghost. We keep the Sabbath because we love our Creator. It is Christ who created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested upon the seventh day and set it apart for holy use. If we follow Christ, we will keep His Sabbath. He is Lord of the Sabbath. He set apart a day for all of mankind to come back in contact with Him and His Father.

 

[iWrecknSow]

FHII WROTE
I want to cover two more verses:

Gal 4:10-11 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I'm afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.

Realizing the the epistle was a scolding letter to a gentile CHurch for allowing them to be persuaded by those who wanted to mix the Law with grace, this verse can only be talking about demanding people following holy days

THE BIBLE WROTE

GAL.4 [8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?[10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.[11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Galatians 4 says nothing about sabbaths or feast days. Its speaking of those who observe times.

DEUT.18 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

The same thing goes on to this very day. Its speaking of the occult. Those who observe certain days by use of horoscopes?

2 CHR.33 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

Enchantments, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizards. Its speaking of the occult. Not following sabbath days.

LEV.19 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths.

 

[Raeneske]

I'm afraid that the words "spirit of the law" does not appear anywhere in that verse (nor anywhere else in the NT). It is very important not to add things to scripture that are not there. Scripture is complete. It was not left open so that we could project our own thoughts into the text.


Again, Paul never teaches us that we should focus on the law, with or without the Spirit. You are going beyond what is written. What Jesus was pointing out in Matthew 5 is that the mosaic law is limited in its ability to restrain evil thoughts. The only thing that can do that is focusing on Jesus, not the mosaic law. If anyone remains in Christ and fellowships with him, then evil thoughts are weeded out by the Spirit. The law is powerless to do that.


Yes, you are implying that without the law we end up breaking the law, which actually nullifies the reason Christ was crucified. The law was not given to the righteous, but to lawbreakers. If you think you need the law in order to be righteous then you are rejecting the righteousness that we have received from God.

Someone who has been made righteous through faith is "no longer under the supervision of the law". But saying that you need the law to supervise you, you are doing nothing more than implicating youself as a lawbreaker.



The sabbath commandment IS different. Scripture teaches us that it is a shadow, and Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-13 explains the reality that the shadow points to. The promise of "rest" was given to the Israelites through Joshua, not Moses, and since they rejected that rest, they were given a mere shadow. The promise however "remains" for everyone who believes.

NOTE: I have exceeded the number of quote boxes I can use, so your comment are now in blue.

"Just because we are not in the same covenant doesn't mean that some of the principles of the Old Covenant aren't in the New Covenant. Romans 3:31 says the law is established."


If you go up in Romans 3 to verse 21 you can read "a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify". Sure, the Law and the Prophets testify about this righteousness. However, it is a righteousness "apart from the law", not "together with the law", as you are suggesting.

"Romans 6:14-15 tells us we may not sin though we are under grace."

Did I say that we should sin because we are not under law but under grace? There is an obvious missunderstanding here. Paul is not saying that we should be under the law in order to avoid sinning If that was the case then he would have been contradicting his entire doctrine!

No. Paul is alluding to what he said in the previous chapter:

"The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more".

Obviously this verse could be twisted by unstable people to mean that since sin made grace increase, then perhaps we should go on sinning in order to get even more grace. Paul condemned such ideas. We are not to sin, but being under the law does not help us accomplish that task. What we need to do is what new covenant scripture teaches us to do - fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith.

"1 John 3:4 tells us that sin is the transgression of the law. Therefore: The 10 commandments are established in the new covenant. We may not break the ten commandments though we are under grace."

John never even mentioned the 10 commandments! What he was talking about was the law that applies to us - the law of Christ! Otherwise you might as well get curcumcised. John himself points out what that law is:

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." 1 John 3:23

"As the Jews were delivered from slavery in Egypt, so are we delivered from slavery from sin. We are given the strength to obey God, and that we are to do. This includes keeping the Sabbath."

Excellent. You recognize that being freed from bondage in Egypt is a shadow of salvation through faith, and yet you don't recognize that observing the 7th day sabbath is a shadow of that same faith, despite the fact that scripture tells us that it is! What's wrong with this picture?

"Paul is not saying the ten commandments have been done away with. This would be something Peter says about having things in them (Paul's epistles) that some things are hard to be understood."

Peter said nothing whatsoever to confirm you interpretation of what that misunderstanding was. I believe, based on scripture that it has to do with what I wrote above. And even Romans 3:8 confirms this:

"Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved."

What Paul was teaching was that the law not only made sin increase, but also grace. But as you pointed out he also said:

"For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."

Notice here though that it is because you are under grace, (and not under law) that you prevent sin from being your master! The law only makes sin increase.

Neither do the words rapture, trinity, and the phrase seven year tribulation appear in Scripture. They are words used to refer to events or doctrine. When someone says rapture, we generally know what they are talking about. The same is with trinity and seven year tribulation. The spirit of the law refers to the belief that there is more to the law than what is written in the letter, and that it has deeper spiritual implications than what is plainly written. Jesus showed this in His teachings.

Jesus did not teach that the 10 commandments were limited. Jesus showed how far reaching the commandments were. He showed that thou shalt not kill stretches further than just reading the letter of the law. It reaches the heart. All ten commandments are supposed to reach the heart. Thou shalt not commit adultery reaches further than physically committing adultery. Jesus showed true understanding of the ten commandments, how it reaches the heart, and doesn't just rest upon the letter.

Jesus taught that we should love our neighbors. Do you know how to love your neighbor, or do you need God to teach you how to do that? Do you need God to help you do that? How do you know if you love your neighbor or not? Paul tells us, love is the fulfilling of the law. Watch as Paul lists five of the ten commandments (does not Jesus do the same thing?) and says that to obey those is love.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul also says if there be any other commandment (and there is) then it is briefly comprehended in the saying thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Paul's own words say that Jesus briefly summarized the commandments. That's what He did. And Jesus's own words say the two great commandments are likened unto each other.


Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


They are similar in some respect. They both point to the ten commandments. As loving your neighbour as yourself briefly summarizes 6 of the ten commandments, so loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind summarizes the first four commandments. Jesus summarized them, and Paul explains that to us. In other words: Jesus was telling us to keep the commandments. And those great commandments, which summarize the duties of a Christian, are what we are to do.

The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the law. Is it sin to murder? Yes. It is a transgression of thou shalt not kill. You said John never mentions the ten commandments. As you have seen previously in this response, to love your neighbor is to keep the commandments. It is only a summary of what the ten commandments say. John was undoubtedly telling us that transgression of the ten commandment law is sin.

You keep tying in the mosaic law with the ten commandments. The Scriptures separate the two. One judges no one(Colossians 2:16), the other judges everyone(James 2:12). One is nailed to the cross(Colossians 2:14), the other is established(Romans 3:31). One is spoken of as having carnal ordinances(Hebrews 9:10), the other is spoken of as being spiritual(Romans 7:14). One is spoken of as making nothing perfect(Hebrews 7:19), the other is spoken of as converting the soul(Psalm 19:7).

Righteousness without the law means this:



Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:



It is not saying the law is done away with. Jesus tells us to keep the law. It is that we are not made righteous by keeping the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ our LORD. And so people wouldn't misunderstand what he(Paul) is saying here, he makes sure to say the law is not void, but established. The law is established in the New Testament.

The Sabbath is not a shadow that was nailed to the cross. The Sabbath points back to creation week. The commandment itself doesn't just say keep the Sabbath Holy, but points back to creation as the reason we keep the Sabbath holy. Jesus Christ rested and set the day apart for Holy use in Genesis. If we love Christ, we will spend the Sabbath Day with Him and His Father. It's not like the ceremonial law which pointed to what was going to happen upon the cross. 6 days working, 1 day resting is a pattern that has been followed since Genesis. The land got it's rest every seven years. During the 1000 years the earth will be at rest. And all the while the Sabbath will continue. It is not a shadow, as it has no future ending point. It is written in the 10 commandments, the commandments which are found in the temple in Heaven, see Revelation 11:19.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Israelites didn't have the Holy Spirit? What did David ask God not to take from him?

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

What moved the prophets to speak?


2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


What was in Daniel?

Daniel 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

Joseph?


Genesis 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

Christ kept the Sabbath. Was the only reason He kept it because He needed to be reminded of God's goodness? Christ knew God personally as well, far more personally than we do actually, even with the Holy Ghost. We keep the Sabbath because we love our Creator. It is Christ who created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested upon the seventh day and set it apart for holy use. If we follow Christ, we will keep His Sabbath. He is Lord of the Sabbath. He set apart a day for all of mankind to come back in contact with Him and His Father.

David, Joseph and others were obviously exceptions who were anointed with the holy spirit. The nation of Israel, though, was not anointed in the holy spirit, but were baptized unto Moses and the law. Surely you are not in denial that the nation was baptized with the holy spirit at Pentecost (as prophesied by Amos), and all those that came out of Egypt were baptized unto Moses? Moses did not give them the holy spirit; he gave them the law.

Neither do the words rapture, trinity, and the phrase seven year tribulation appear in Scripture. They are words used to refer to events or doctrine. When someone says rapture, we generally know what they are talking about. The same is with trinity and seven year tribulation. The spirit of the law refers to the belief that there is more to the law than what is written in the letter, and that it has deeper spiritual implications than what is plainly written. Jesus showed this in His teachings.

The spirit of the law is simply the holy spirit, which is distinct from the letters (of the law). The letter kills, but the spirit gives life. It makes no sense to follow something that kills. And we don't have to because mankind has been freed from bondage to the letter.

Jesus did not teach that the 10 commandments were limited. Jesus showed how far reaching the commandments were. He showed that thou shalt not kill stretches further than just reading the letter of the law. It reaches the heart. All ten commandments are supposed to reach the heart. Thou shalt not commit adultery reaches further than physically committing adultery. Jesus showed true understanding of the ten commandments, how it reaches the heart, and doesn't just rest upon the letter.

No, Jesus showed how limited the reach of the law was. The law did not forbid having lustful thoughts; it only forbade the physical act of adultery. No person could be put to death for having lustful thoughts. Christ taught that righteousness was something entirely different than obeying a set of commandments limiting physical activities.

The Sabbath is not a shadow that was nailed to the cross.

Yet the bible says sabbaths are a shadow.

Do not let anyone judge you with reference to eating and drinking, or in particulars of feasts, new moons, or sabbaths, which are a shadow of coming things, but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

 

[Raeneske]

David, Joseph and others were obviously exceptions who were anointed with the holy spirit. The nation of Israel, though, was not anointed in the holy spirit, but were baptized unto Moses and the law. Surely you are not in denial that the nation was baptized with the holy spirit at Pentecost (as prophesied by Amos), and all those that came out of Egypt were baptized unto Moses? Moses did not give them the holy spirit; he gave them the law.


The spirit of the law is simply the holy spirit, which is distinct from the letters (of the law). The letter kills, but the spirit gives life. It makes no sense to follow something that kills. And we don't have to because mankind has been freed from bondage to the letter.


No, Jesus showed how limited the reach of the law was. The law did not forbid having lustful thoughts; it only forbade the physical act of adultery. No person could be put to death for having lustful thoughts. Christ taught that righteousness was something entirely different than obeying a set of commandments limiting physical activities.

I don't deny that the Holy Spirit fell upon the believers at Pentecost. What I do deny is that the Holy Spirit was not upon the Israelites. It wasn't on every single Israelite, but it was upon many of them.

The spirit of the law is a greater understanding of what is written in the letter. The law is spiritual, not just physical.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The same way people have trouble understanding what's written in the Scriptures without the aid of the Holy Ghost is the same way people misunderstand what is written in the ten commandments without the aid of the Holy Ghost. The ten commandments are not limited, but far reaching. The law indeed forbids lustful thoughts. Is having a lustful thought adultery? Yes. Does the law forbid adultery? Yes. Therefore the law forbids lustful thoughts.

This is why Paul says the letter kills but the spirit gives life. If all you see is physical adultery is forbidden, then the law will kill you. You aren't understanding the spiritual nature of the law, but only the literal letter of it. It's like the Pharisees in regards to the Sabbath. All they could see was the letter, and they laid down burdens that didn't need to be laid down upon that day. They didn't understand it is within harmony of the spirit of the law for people to be made whole upon the Sabbath. The people didn't understand that the hatred in their heart against their brother was forbidden. Without the aid of the Holy Spirit one may never be able to see any farther than what is literally written. Jesus helps us understand the fact that the law reaches the heart, and not just the outward appearance.

Yet the bible says sabbaths are a shadow.

Do not let anyone judge you with reference to eating and drinking, or in particulars of feasts, new moons, or sabbaths, which are a shadow of coming things, but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

The usage of the word sabbaths does not mean that every law that has the word Sabbath is done away with any more than the law being established (Romans 3:31) means that circumcision and the law of Moses has been established for Christians to keep simply because it uses the word law. Keep the verses in context. Where are the new moons, feasts, meat and drink offerings found in the ten commandments? Nowhere. Colossians 2:14 talks about the handwriting of ordinances which were nailed to the cross. The seventh day Sabbath is an eternal commandment written with the finger of God, not with the handwriting of Moses. It is part of the 10 commandments (found in heaven, Revelation 11:19), not part of shadows which pointed to Jesus Christ who was to be nailed upon the cross.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Neither do the words rapture, trinity, and the phrase seven year tribulation appear in Scripture. They are words used to refer to events or doctrine. When someone says rapture, we generally know what they are talking about. The same is with trinity and seven year tribulation. The spirit of the law refers to the belief that there is more to the law than what is written in the letter, and that it has deeper spiritual implications than what is plainly written. Jesus showed this in His teachings.

Simply because certain English words do not appear in scripture does not open the door for us to insert whatever we want into specific verses. You quoted the verse and then presented it as though it said something that it obviously didn't say. You tried to make it say what you wanted it to say, and that should be a big warning flag to anyone who is interested in remaining withing the bounds of "what is written". I can defend my entire theology without going outside of scripture. I can let scripture speak for itself and have no need to project my own beliefs into the text, and so should you.

Now the concepts of the trinity, the rapture, and so on, stand on their own merits and belong to another discussion. I have given you many scriptures that point out that the Mosaic law was not written to supervise Christians. I have shown you how scripture describes the 7th day sabbath as a mere shadow of the real sabbath. I have show you how Hebrews 3 and 4 outlines the context of the sabbath rest is. I have shown you how the apostle Paul declared the old covenant obsolete for those who are justified through faith in Christ. I have posted clear scriptures that tell us that Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.
All you have done is deny these truths by quoting verses that don't even say what you want them to say and so the need arises to modify them.

Jesus did not teach that the 10 commandments were limited. Jesus showed how far reaching the commandments were. He showed that thou shalt not kill stretches further than just reading the letter of the law. It reaches the heart. All ten commandments are supposed to reach the heart. Thou shalt not commit adultery reaches further than physically committing adultery. Jesus showed true understanding of the ten commandments, how it reaches the heart, and doesn't just rest upon the letter.

And this is what I am talking about. Where did Jesus teach that the 10 commandments "reached the heart"? If they reached the heart then Jesus' sacrifice would not have been necessary! The commandments, again, according to scripture, brought death and condemnation. Why are you contradicting scripture? If we take all scripture as it is, and understand how to "rightly divide the word of truth" then we never end up with contradictions!

Jesus taught that we should love our neighbors. Do you know how to love your neighbor, or do you need God to teach you how to do that? Do you need God to help you do that? How do you know if you love your neighbor or not? Paul tells us, love is the fulfilling of the law. Watch as Paul lists five of the ten commandments (does not Jesus do the same thing?) and says that to obey those is love.

Scripture teaches us that:

"Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10)

You seem to be reading this the other way around, as if it said "the law is the fulfillment of love", but that is not what that scripture says. It means that if we focus on loving our neighbor, even if we don't fulfill the letter of the law, we are nevertheless fulfilling all of its requirements. Peter agrees with this by saying:
"Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8)

Your next few comments hinge on the same thing, so I will skip them unless you think I haven't addressed something there. Just let me know if that's the case.
But since you constantly point out the "love" aspect and try to associate it with the commandments, I would like to repeat my previous point in saying that focusing on commandments does not produce love. That is the problem that you just don't seem to want to accept. Why? I think it is because you just want to defend your doctrine at any cost. If by making laws that speak about love do mankind any good, then God would simply have written one single law "Thou shalt love" and everything would have been fixed.

The only thing that produces the deep kind of love that one needs in order to fulfil the law is to fix our eyes on Jesus. That not only makes us produce good fruit, it stimulates us to do good works. What kind of works? Following the 10 commandments? Going throug a list of static laws that we need to keep us in check? No! It is by doing the works that God commands us to do through his Spirit, tailored to match the measure of faith we have! The are works of faith, not legalism. Read Hebrews chapter 11 and look at the kind of "works" that pleased God. Were any of them commended for their ability to keep the law? Read through them all.

The Bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the law. Is it sin to murder? Yes. It is a transgression of thou shalt not kill. You said John never mentions the ten commandments. As you have seen previously in this response, to love your neighbor is to keep the commandments. It is only a summary of what the ten commandments say. John was undoubtedly telling us that transgression of the ten commandment law is sin.

This is getting repetative and I'm not sure if you are reading what I have written. We are under the Law of Christ. Paul makes a clear distinction between being under the mosaic law and under the Law of Christ:

"To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law." (1 Cor 9:20,21)

Why are you NOT making that distinction???

Now if we refrain from murdering because it would be transgressing the Law of Christ does that mean that we are still under the Mosaic law? Of course not! If I drive across the border from Norway to Sweden and get caught for speeding, does that mean that I am under Norwegian law simply because they also have a speed limit? No, I am subject to Swedish law.

You keep tying in the mosaic law with the ten commandments. The Scriptures separate the two. One judges no one(Colossians 2:16), the other judges everyone
(James 2:12). One is nailed to the cross(Colossians 2:14), the other is established(Romans 3:31). One is spoken of as having carnal ordinances(Hebrews 9:10), the other is spoken of as being spiritual(Romans 7:14). One is spoken of as making nothing perfect(Hebrews 7:19), the other is spoken of as converting the soul(Psalm 19:7).

This is incredibly sloppy work... and more contradictions for me to point out. To start with James speaks about the "perfect law that brings freedom". This cannot refer to the 10 commandments since we already know from reading 2 Cor 3:7-9 that the 10 commandments bring death and condmenation, not freedom. Furthermore you can clearly see from the surrounding context that James is speaking about the law of Christ! Almost the entire chapter, plus the last part of chapter 1 deal with this. He even specifically points it out in verse 8:

"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right."

Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 says nothing about any distinction between the 10 commandments and the mosaic law. Adventists (or whatever...) assume that Paul was making that distinction simply because he only mentions certain old covenant practices that the Galatians were starting to observe. These practices where hardly the reason Paul was so upset! The only distinction that Paul specifically made (i.e that scripture makes!) was between living by the Spirit or by human effort (Galatians 3:3)

It is not saying the law is done away with. Jesus tells us to keep the law. It is that we are not made righteous by keeping the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ our LORD. And so people wouldn't misunderstand what he(Paul) is saying here, he makes sure to say the law is not void, but established. The law is established in the New Testament.

I have already pointed out time and time again that Christians who are led by the spirit are not under law. Jesus did not tell "us" to keep the law. He told someone who loved money (i.e. who wasn't keeping the law of Christ) that he should keep the law. What he told his disciples on the other hand was that he would send the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Later on the Spirit of Christ inspired the apostle Paul to write these words:

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. (Galatian 5:18)

Let me ask you once and for all: Are you under the law?

The Sabbath is not a shadow that was nailed to the cross. The Sabbath points back to creation week. The commandment itself doesn't just say keep the Sabbath Holy, but points back to creation as the reason we keep the Sabbath holy. Jesus Christ rested and set the day apart for Holy use in Genesis. If we love Christ, we will spend the Sabbath Day with Him and His Father. It's not like the ceremonial law which pointed to what was going to happen upon the cross. 6 days working, 1 day resting is a pattern that has been followed since Genesis. The land got it's rest every seven years. During the 1000 years the earth will be at rest. And all the while the Sabbath will continue. It is not a shadow, as it has no future ending point. It is written in the 10 commandments, the commandments which are found in the temple in Heaven, see Revelation 11:19.

It isn't the sabbath itself that is a shadow! It is the 24-hour observance of the sabbath that is. The sabbath not only points to creation. It points toward the time of slavery in Egypt. I have already gone through this with you - God swore an oath that the same people who received the 10 commandments would never enter his "rest", so how could the legalistic observation of a day be that rest? The rest involved faith in God's promise to lead the people into the land he had prepared for them. They rejected that offer, which is why the promise of rest "remains" for those who believe.

If that "rest" was the 4th commandment then why did Paul suggest that is was Joshua who was the one to give them rest, rather than Moses? And did the Israelites enter the promised land once a week?

And why does he, right smack in the middle of Hebrews 4, when talking about the 7th day say:

"And YET, God's work has been finished since the creation of the world."

How can something that is finished since creation be a 24 hour day?

Finally, where does Revelation 11:19 say anything about the 10 commandments being in the Ark? I hope you realize that things mentioned in the law were only shadows of the things in heaven. If scripture teaches us that the new covenant was far more glorious than the old covenant, then don't you suppose that what is found in the heavenly Ark is the Law of Christ? Think about it.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I find the NT gives evidentual support for it's observance, yet what is your position on the issue? (give scriptural support)

So Gracealone where are you ???

You have been gone since Nov 29 ... that is 16 days now

Did you accomplish what you wanted ????

Recently we had a thousand post thread on the sabbath argument that accomplished nothing

So WTF are you ????

 

[Raeneske]

Simply because certain English words do not appear in scripture does not open the door for us to insert whatever we want into specific verses. You quoted the verse and then presented it as though it said something that it obviously didn't say. You tried to make it say what you wanted it to say, and that should be a big warning flag to anyone who is interested in remaining withing the bounds of "what is written". I can defend my entire theology without going outside of scripture. I can let scripture speak for itself and have no need to project my own beliefs into the text, and so should you.

Now the concepts of the trinity, the rapture, and so on, stand on their own merits and belong to another discussion. I have given you many scriptures that point out that the Mosaic law was not written to supervise Christians. I have shown you how scripture describes the 7th day sabbath as a mere shadow of the real sabbath. I have show you how Hebrews 3 and 4 outlines the context of the sabbath rest is. I have shown you how the apostle Paul declared the old covenant obsolete for those who are justified through faith in Christ. I have posted clear scriptures that tell us that Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.
All you have done is deny these truths by quoting verses that don't even say what you want them to say and so the need arises to modify them.



And this is what I am talking about. Where did Jesus teach that the 10 commandments "reached the heart"? If they reached the heart then Jesus' sacrifice would not have been necessary! The commandments, again, according to scripture, brought death and condemnation. Why are you contradicting scripture? If we take all scripture as it is, and understand how to "rightly divide the word of truth" then we never end up with contradictions!



Scripture teaches us that:

"Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10)

You seem to be reading this the other way around, as if it said "the law is the fulfillment of love", but that is not what that scripture says. It means that if we focus on loving our neighbor, even if we don't fulfill the letter of the law, we are nevertheless fulfilling all of its requirements. Peter agrees with this by saying:
"Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8)

Your next few comments hinge on the same thing, so I will skip them unless you think I haven't addressed something there. Just let me know if that's the case.
But since you constantly point out the "love" aspect and try to associate it with the commandments, I would like to repeat my previous point in saying that focusing on commandments does not produce love. That is the problem that you just don't seem to want to accept. Why? I think it is because you just want to defend your doctrine at any cost. If by making laws that speak about love do mankind any good, then God would simply have written one single law "Thou shalt love" and everything would have been fixed.

The only thing that produces the deep kind of love that one needs in order to fulfil the law is to fix our eyes on Jesus. That not only makes us produce good fruit, it stimulates us to do good works. What kind of works? Following the 10 commandments? Going throug a list of static laws that we need to keep us in check? No! It is by doing the works that God commands us to do through his Spirit, tailored to match the measure of faith we have! The are works of faith, not legalism. Read Hebrews chapter 11 and look at the kind of "works" that pleased God. Were any of them commended for their ability to keep the law? Read through them all.




This is getting repetative and I'm not sure if you are reading what I have written. We are under the Law of Christ. Paul makes a clear distinction between being under the mosaic law and under the Law of Christ:

"To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law." (1 Cor 9:20,21)

Why are you NOT making that distinction???

Now if we refrain from murdering because it would be transgressing the Law of Christ does that mean that we are still under the Mosaic law? Of course not! If I drive across the border from Norway to Sweden and get caught for speeding, does that mean that I am under Norwegian law simply because they also have a speed limit? No, I am subject to Swedish law.




This is incredibly sloppy work... and more contradictions for me to point out. To start with James speaks about the "perfect law that brings freedom". This cannot refer to the 10 commandments since we already know from reading 2 Cor 3:7-9 that the 10 commandments bring death and condmenation, not freedom. Furthermore you can clearly see from the surrounding context that James is speaking about the law of Christ! Almost the entire chapter, plus the last part of chapter 1 deal with this. He even specifically points it out in verse 8:

"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right."

Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 says nothing about any distinction between the 10 commandments and the mosaic law. Adventists (or whatever...) assume that Paul was making that distinction simply because he only mentions certain old covenant practices that the Galatians were starting to observe. These practices where hardly the reason Paul was so upset! The only distinction that Paul specifically made (i.e that scripture makes!) was between living by the Spirit or by human effort (Galatians 3:3)




I have already pointed out time and time again that Christians who are led by the spirit are not under law. Jesus did not tell "us" to keep the law. He told someone who loved money (i.e. who wasn't keeping the law of Christ) that he should keep the law. What he told his disciples on the other hand was that he would send the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Later on the Spirit of Christ inspired the apostle Paul to write these words:

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. (Galatian 5:18)

Let me ask you once and for all: Are you under the law?




It isn't the sabbath itself that is a shadow! It is the 24-hour observance of the sabbath that is. The sabbath not only points to creation. It points toward the time of slavery in Egypt. I have already gone through this with you - God swore an oath that the same people who received the 10 commandments would never enter his "rest", so how could the legalistic observation of a day be that rest? The rest involved faith in God's promise to lead the people into the land he had prepared for them. They rejected that offer, which is why the promise of rest "remains" for those who believe.

If that "rest" was the 4th commandment then why did Paul suggest that is was Joshua who was the one to give them rest, rather than Moses? And did the Israelites enter the promised land once a week?

And why does he, right smack in the middle of Hebrews 4, when talking about the 7th day say:

"And YET, God's work has been finished since the creation of the world."

How can something that is finished since creation be a 24 hour day?

Finally, where does Revelation 11:19 say anything about the 10 commandments being in the Ark? I hope you realize that things mentioned in the law were only shadows of the things in heaven. If scripture teaches us that the new covenant was far more glorious than the old covenant, then don't you suppose that what is found in the heavenly Ark is the Law of Christ? Think about it.

I have let Scripture speak for itself. Speaking of the spirit of the law does not mean I have added to the Word of God. It is a principle understood within the Scriptures. Let me try to make this very plain:

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus said there are two great commandments. Jesus said the those two great commandments are likened unto each other.


Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul pointed specifically to five of the ten commandments and said if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended as love your neighbor as yourself. In other words, it's a summary of the commandments. The great commandments Jesus gave are brief summaries of the ten commandments. Those that love one another have fulfilled the law. What is love? The fulfilling of the law. What law? What law was Paul just talking about? The 10 commandments. Love is the fulfilling of the commandments. Those that love each other keep the commandments.


Why did the commandments bring death and condemnation?


Romans 7:8-11 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.


Because sin took occasion by the commandment. Without the law, sin is dead. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). It is sin that took occasion that deceived and slew Paul. This is why the commandments brought death and condemnation.

Do the 10 commandments (also called precepts and testimonies) bring liberty (freedom) to those who seek them?


Psalms 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

As for what the royal law is, I have already covered. It is a brief comprehension of the commandments.

I am not denying that we need Jesus to save us, and that we need His strength to obey any of the commandments. I want to make that plain. The ten commandments point out the character of Jesus Christ if they are rightly understood.

Let me try to give an example of the spirit of the law, though it will not be perfect. A law tells you not to speed. So you do not speed around anyone -- whether it's cops, or friends, family members, others on the road, etc. But hey, you're all alone, and no one can see you speed. This being alone represents what goes on inside the heart. You can speed "in your heart" and no one will see it. But it doesn't matter if no one will see it or not. It's still breaking the law. The same goes for the commandments. Thou shalt not commit adultery is still broken even if you have lust in your heart. That is the spirit of the law, it refers to what goes on in the heart. It is what Jesus came and pointed out. The law is far reaching, it reaches into the depths of the heart, not just what people can and cannot see. Thou shalt not commit adultery even means that in your heart you shall not commit adultery, regardless of who can or cannot see it.

Though we are not under the law but under grace, may we sin? God forbid. Though we are not under the law, may we transgress the law? No. (Romans 6:14-15) You are not allowed to break any of those commandments just because you are not under it, but under grace. Why? Because the law is established (Romans 3:31). And those that only hear the law, and will not do it shall not be justified before God.


Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This is not to say that the law justifies you. It is that if you do not do the law, you are willfully sinning. Sin is breaking the law, so if you willfully break the law, Christ will not justify you. He did not die for us to act with lawless behavior. He died because we are sinners and we could not keep the law perfectly. Therefore He took upon Himself our sins. This does not free us from our obligation to keep any of the commandments. Those who willfully transgress the law will not have a sacrifice for their sins if they continue in blatant disobedience (Hebrews 10:26-27).



Colossians 2 shows what law it is talking about by the context of the passage. The Bible does make a distinction between the mosaic law and the ten commandments. I posted verses in my previous comment that you may want to take a look at.

Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Remember how earlier I linked the Jews slavery to Egypt to our bondage to sin? Here comes that simile again. You were a servant in Egypt, a servant to sin, before the Lord saved you. Therefore the Lord has commanded you to keep His Sabbath.

The 24 hour observance is not a shadow, nor is it legalistic. And I did not say the 24 hour observance is that rest which we are to enter into, when referring to the 1000 years. The 24 hour observance is not a shadow. It shall never cease. About 6000 years of sin and 1000 years of rest is simply a pattern. It does not nullify the need to keep the Sabbath commandment. And if the 24 hour observance of the Sabbath WAS a shadow pointing to the 1000 years of rest, wouldn't that mean that we would still have to keep it, because type would not have met anti-type yet. Have we reached the 1000 years of rest yet? No. So wouldn't that mean we continue to keep the Sabbath until type met anti-type? That's the way it worked with the Passover and other feast days.

As for Revelation 11:19, please view why the ark even received the name the ark of the testimony/testament/covenant. The only reason it has it's name is because it is the receptacle of the ten commandments. Start at Exodus 25. In verse 10 it's name is only "ark". In verse 16 we see what goes into that ark. In verse 21 we see what goes in that ark and on that ark. In verse 22 it's then called ark of the testimony. Why? Because the testimony goes into the ark. What is the testimony? Check Exodus 31:18. What else are the tables of testimony called? See Deuteronomy 9:9. This is how we know the ten commandments are in heaven. There is not an empty receptacle in heaven. Remember the things on earth are a pattern of the heavenly things. (Hebrews 8:5).

As I have said, if you are following the law of Christ, you will keep the Sabbath. It is Jesus who rested upon the seventh day. It is Jesus who set the day apart for holy use. And as He Himself said, the Sabbath was made for man. It is the character of Christ Himself that does not murder, steal, commit adultery, lie, covet, dishonor his Father and mother, break the Sabbath, worship other Gods, worship idols, put other God's before His Father, or use His Fathers name in vain. If Christ be the example for you to follow, you ought to do the works He did. This includes keeping the Sabbath.

 

[mjrhealth]

Its the old wine , vs new wine, so many prefer the old wine as Christ spoke, because they have not tasted the new.

Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

When you have tasted the new wine, than teh Sabbath keeping will fall into place. It is teh law it is not Love. As Christ said," Love" in that all is fullfilled. So in this if you have not Love than keeping the law is the fleshy replacement. " Look at me look waht I did."
.
Christ did it all, how much more will you add to the price, was His death and suffering not enough for you, that you have to try outdo Him. You cant, so give up this foolishness,

In All His Love

 

[UppsalaDragby]

I have let Scripture speak for itself.

Well I beg to disagree. you haven't provided one single scripture that by itself tells us that the observance of the sabbath according to mosaic law is a law that has been transferred from the old covenant into the new, which is what this thread is all about. I have provided a whole string of scriptures that without any manipulation whatsover show that the opposite is true - that the observance of the sabbbath is a shadow of the real thing, that the old covenant is obsolete, that Christ is the end of the law, etc, etc.

Speaking of the spirit of the law does not mean I have added to the Word of God. It is a principle understood within the Scriptures. Let me try to make this very plain:
Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jesus said there are two great commandments. Jesus said the those two great commandments are likened unto each other.
Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Paul pointed specifically to five of the ten commandments and said if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended as love your neighbor as yourself. In other words, it's a summary of the commandments. The great commandments Jesus gave are brief summaries of the ten commandments. Those that love one another have fulfilled the law. What is love? The fulfilling of the law. What law? What law was Paul just talking about? The 10 commandments. Love is the fulfilling of the commandments. Those that love each other keep the commandments.

I fail to see how any of this proves your point. Love fulfils the law. So?

It is no secret that there are elements in the old covenant that point towards the new, particularly those that conform to the Law of Christ. No one is denying that. But that does not mean that we are still under any of the old covenant laws. We are to love God, to love our neighbors and to love each other as well. That's it. By doing these we fulfil, or satisfy the requirements of the law. And since we fulfil the law simply by loving our neighbor then there is absolutely no need to be yoked by the law again.

Why did the commandments bring death and condemnation?
Romans 7:8-11 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Because sin took occasion by the commandment. Without the law, sin is dead. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). It is sin that took occasion that deceived and slew Paul. This is why the commandments brought death and condemnation.

And? That is what I have been saying all along. How does that support any of your claims? We have been given a new nature that allows us to produce fruit in keeping with salvation, but we still have a sinful nature to grapple with, and legalism still causes death and condemnation.

Do the 10 commandments (also called precepts and testimonies) bring liberty (freedom) to those who seek them?
Psalms 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

I don't see anything in that verse that says anything about the 10 commandments. And since the 10 commandments were not known to Abraham, who was made righteous by faith just as we are, then according to you he was not enjoying the same level of "freedom" that the rebellious generation were given. Unlucky for him I guess.

Honestly, I fail to see how you continue to argue this. Can't you see that the law was given to the Jews in response to their rejection of the gospel? Why are you not responding to these points?

As for what the royal law is, I have already covered. It is a brief comprehension of the commandments.

Well I must have blinked and missed it. I however will let scripture speak for itself (again!):

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

I am not denying that we need Jesus to save us, and that we need His strength to obey any of the commandments. I want to make that plain. The ten commandments point out the character of Jesus Christ if they are rightly understood.
Let me try to give an example of the spirit of the law, though it will not be perfect. A law tells you not to speed. So you do not speed around anyone -- whether it's cops, or friends, family members, others on the road, etc. But hey, you're all alone, and no one can see you speed. This being alone represents what goes on inside the heart. You can speed "in your heart" and no one will see it. But it doesn't matter if no one will see it or not. It's still breaking the law. The same goes for the commandments. Thou shalt not commit adultery is still broken even if you have lust in your heart. That is the spirit of the law, it refers to what goes on in the heart. It is what Jesus came and pointed out. The law is far reaching, it reaches into the depths of the heart, not just what people can and cannot see. Thou shalt not commit adultery even means that in your heart you shall not commit adultery, regardless of who can or cannot see it.

That is a nice analogy, but it simply avoids the problem. Laws do not "reach the depths of the heart". Legalism has been tried and it has failed, simply because we have a sinful nature. There is nothing in scripture that teaches us that we get super-human lawkeeping strenght that enables us to keep the mosaic law. The Spirit helps us in our weakness, but we still have weakness!

Though we are not under the law but under grace, may we sin? God forbid. Though we are not under the law, may we transgress the law? No. (Romans 6:14-15) You are not allowed to break any of those commandments just because you are not under it, but under grace. Why? Because the law is established (Romans 3:31). And those that only hear the law, and will not do it shall not be justified before God.

I have already dealt with that in quite some detail. Have I said anywhere that we are "allowed" to break the law? NO! Did Paul say anywhere that we are "allowed" to break the law? NO. Does that mean that we are still under the mosaic law? NO!!! The fact of the matter is that we are eventually sin, in many ways, not because we are allowed to sin, but because we have a sinful nature that cannot keep the law. Try to understand the distinction!

I have also pointed out, time after time, that the law does NOT prevent us from sinning. Why are you ignoring this? It isn't the law that does this! We can only fix our eyes on Jesus and nurture the seed that was planted in our hearts. By remaining in Christ, and remaining in the belief that his resurrected Spirit lives in us, we can fulfil the requirements of the law.

You seem to ignore this and just keep posting verses that don't support your stance at all.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Sure, no problem. Even James spoke about this when he said:

"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does."

Notice here that not only does James define specifically what the "perfect law that gives freedom" is, he even gives us examples throughout his letter of that law should be carried out - NOT by obeying the 10 commandments, but by doing things such as "looking after orphans and widows" and "not showing favoritism".

The only time James mentions the mosaic commandments is in the very misunderstood verse in chapeter 2 where he says:

"For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker." (James 2:11)

However, not only does this verse NOT support what legalists are trying to teach, it ignores the surrounding context. James does not use this verse to support obedience to the mosaic law, but rather uses it as an analogy!

If you read verses 1-13 then you will see what I mean. Rather throwing the old covenant laws into the new covenant and mixing them all together in a big confusing mess, he is actually making a distinction. He does this by comparing the Law of Christ with the OT law, showing that breaking the Law of Christ (showing favoritism and harboring judgmental and evil thoughts) is just as serious as breaking the OT law. In other words, just as if you break one of the commandments then the law condemns you as a lawbreaker, being judemental and discriminating against your brother ALSO breaks the Law of Christ and condemns you as a lawbreaker - a lawbreaker of Christs Law! Read this passage of scripture carefully and you will see.

This is not to say that the law justifies you. It is that if you do not do the law, you are willfully sinning. Sin is breaking the law, so if you willfully break the law, Christ will not justify you. He did not die for us to act with lawless behavior. He died because we are sinners and we could not keep the law perfectly. Therefore He took upon Himself our sins. This does not free us from our obligation to keep any of the commandments. Those who willfully transgress the law will not have a sacrifice for their sins if they continue in blatant disobedience (Hebrews 10:26-27).

Again, try to disinguish between laws made for lawbreakers, and the law which was made for the righteous. Every time the word "law" or "commandment" does not mean that what the new testament authors were referring to is the 10 commandments.

Colossians 2 shows what law it is talking about by the context of the passage. The Bible does make a distinction between the mosaic law and the ten commandments. I posted verses in my previous comment that you may want to take a look at.

No, Colossians 2 says nothing about any such distinction. Sometimes Paul speaks about specific laws and sometimes he speaks about the law in general in order to illustrate a principle. You need to read his entire doctrine to sort out what the best possible interpretation is. But neither Paul or anyone else in the NT refers to the 10 commandments as a separate unit. The only exception is 2 Cor 3:7-11 and we all know what that tells us.

Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Remember how earlier I linked the Jews slavery to Egypt to our bondage to sin? Here comes that simile again. You were a servant in Egypt, a servant to sin, before the Lord saved you. Therefore the Lord has commanded you to keep His Sabbath.

Yes, exactly. The escape from Egypt is a shadow of our salvation, just as taking the promised land symbolizes the process of salvation. But that shadow does not point back to another shadow! It point towards the reality in Christ!

Keeping the sabbath, for a christian, is avoiding a gospel of works!

The 24 hour observance is not a shadow, nor is it legalistic. And I did not say the 24 hour observance is that rest which we are to enter into, when referring to the 1000 years. The 24 hour observance is not a shadow. It shall never cease. About 6000 years of sin and 1000 years of rest is simply a pattern. It does not nullify the need to keep the Sabbath commandment. And if the 24 hour observance of the Sabbath WAS a shadow pointing to the 1000 years of rest, wouldn't that mean that we would still have to keep it, because type would not have met anti-type yet. Have we reached the 1000 years of rest yet? No. So wouldn't that mean we continue to keep the Sabbath until type met anti-type? That's the way it worked with the Passover and other feast days.
As for Revelation 11:19, please view why the ark even received the name the ark of the testimony/testament/covenant. The only reason it has it's name is because it is the receptacle of the ten commandments. Start at Exodus 25. In verse 10 it's name is only "ark". In verse 16 we see what goes into that ark. In verse 21 we see what goes in that ark and on that ark. In verse 22 it's then called ark of the testimony. Why? Because the testimony goes into the ark. What is the testimony? Check Exodus 31:18. What else are the tables of testimony called? See Deuteronomy 9:9. This is how we know the ten commandments are in heaven. There is not an empty receptacle in heaven. Remember the things on earth are a pattern of the heavenly things. (Hebrews 8:5).

Oh boy... The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. Despite that you try to quote Exodus and Deutronomy to prove you point??? Sigh...

Does the following say anything to you at all:

"For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory." 2 Cor 3:10

Now you tell me why you think God would keep a mere shadow, that lacks glory in heaven rather than the Law of Christ - the reality that has surpassing glory!

As I have said, if you are following the law of Christ, you will keep the Sabbath. It is Jesus who rested upon the seventh day. It is Jesus who set the day apart for holy use. And as He Himself said, the Sabbath was made for man. It is the character of Christ Himself that does not murder, steal, commit adultery, lie, covet, dishonor his Father and mother, break the Sabbath, worship other Gods, worship idols, put other God's before His Father, or use His Fathers name in vain. If Christ be the example for you to follow, you ought to do the works He did. This includes keeping the Sabbath.

I do keep the sabbath - by not persuing justification through works rather than faith in Christ. For those who are in Christ have entered the 7th day by way of faith. Those who are breaking the sabbath are the people who look towards the law for justification. And even though you claim to be justified by faith in Christ it is obvious that you do not believe that you are since you think that the evidence of your faith is reflected by your ability to obey the 10 commandments.