Sabbath or no Sabbath?

[Mungo]

I'm sorry, I missed that one.. I know, my name is a silly one and I regret using it, but I couldn't think of anything better at the time. It is a combination of words. Uppsala is a city in Sweden where I presently live and Dragby is a small town out in the country where I lived some years ago.

In case nobody has mentioned it I think it's possible to change your name on this forum.

 

[mjrhealth]

Plain, lets make this as plain as one can.

" and God rested from His works".

The sabbath us all about resting from ones own works, The law is all about "you" working to earn your salvation.and simply proved the sinners we are and that we cant do it. Thats why Christ came.
When we come to Christ we are supposed to rest in Him. rest from our own works, if you are keeping the sabbath, than you are not resting from you own work which means you are not resting in Him, as keeping the sabbath is a work. You are either in Christ or you are not, which is it????

In all His Love

 

[UppsalaDragby]

In case nobody has mentioned it I think it's possible to change your name on this forum.

Thanks Mungo!

I'm going to check and see if I can figure out how to do it.

 

[Raeneske]

Well I beg to disagree. you haven't provided one single scripture that by itself tells us that the observance of the sabbath according to mosaic law is a law that has been transferred from the old covenant into the new, which is what this thread is all about. I have provided a whole string of scriptures that without any manipulation whatsover show that the opposite is true - that the observance of the sabbbath is a shadow of the real thing, that the old covenant is obsolete, that Christ is the end of the law, etc, etc.


I fail to see how any of this proves your point. Love fulfils the law. So?

It is no secret that there are elements in the old covenant that point towards the new, particularly those that conform to the Law of Christ. No one is denying that. But that does not mean that we are still under any of the old covenant laws. We are to love God, to love our neighbors and to love each other as well. That's it. By doing these we fulfil, or satisfy the requirements of the law. And since we fulfil the law simply by loving our neighbor then there is absolutely no need to be yoked by the law again.

I have provided Scripture. I provided Matthew 22:37-40 which shows Jesus pointing out the great commandments. I provided Romans 13:8-10 which shows Paul pointing to 5 of the ten commandments, saying if there be any other commandment, and saying it is briefly comprehended as Love thy neighbor as thyself. Again, Paul pointed to 5 of the ten commandments (not any mosaic ordinances), said if there be any other commandment (he did not mention honoring your father and mother) that it is briefly comprehended in the saying love your neighbor as yourself.

Do you understand what Paul is saying? Jesus's words love your neighbor as yourself summarized the last six commandments. This is exactly what Paul has just said in Romans 13:8-10. And Jesus said that the two great commandments are likened unto each other. We can then reason that the first great commandment summarizes the first four commandments. And this is the proof that we are to keep the commandments, including the Sabbath.

And? That is what I have been saying all along. How does that support any of your claims? We have been given a new nature that allows us to produce fruit in keeping with salvation, but we still have a sinful nature to grapple with, and legalism still causes death and condemnation.

This supports what I said because it shows the law only brought condemnation and death because of sin. What did Jesus come to free us from? Sin. Not from obedience to the law, but He came to free us from sin. If you are freed from sin, you are able to keep the ten commandments.

Are you saying it's legalism to keep the first commandment? The second? The third? Skip the fourth for now, what about the fifth? The sixth? The seventh? The eighth? The ninth? The tenth? If you answer is no to all those, then go back to number four. Is it legalism to keep that one? If so, then it seems that your problem is not with the ten commandments. The problem is with the Sabbath.

I don't see anything in that verse that says anything about the 10 commandments. And since the 10 commandments were not known to Abraham, who was made righteous by faith just as we are, then according to you he was not enjoying the same level of "freedom" that the rebellious generation were given. Unlucky for him I guess.

Honestly, I fail to see how you continue to argue this. Can't you see that the law was given to the Jews in response to their rejection of the gospel? Why are you not responding to these points?

David would walk at liberty, for he seeks the Lord's precepts. What precepts could he possibly seek if he was seeking liberty? Was it the law of Moses? No, the Bible calls that bondage.

Galatians 4:21-25 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Is this passage saying that it's bondage for someone to keep thou shalt not kill? How is that bondage? It's bondage if you cannot keep it, because that makes you a murderer. What Paul is talking about in this passage is the mosaic law. The mosaic law is not carried over into the New Covenant, but the ten commandments are, which are written upon the tables of our hearts, like God promised.


Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Now it may appear we would have a problem though. How would that which appears to bring death and condemnation set one at liberty? Remember, it was sin that brought death and condemnation, by taking occasion by the commandment. And Christ came to free us from our sins. And if Christ is freeing us from sin, then will the ten commandments bring death and condemnation? No. That which gave knowledge of the sin, now gives knowledge of liberty from sin.



As for Abraham: Did you know that there were commandments, statutes and laws before the ten commandments were written down for the Israelites?

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham wasn't part of the mosaic law, but it is clear Abraham obeyed laws, commandments, and statutes. Abraham kept something. And it's worth looking into what that something was.

Well I must have blinked and missed it. I however will let scripture speak for itself (again!):

I will do the same. Don't ignore the fact that love thy neighbor as thyself is a summary of the last six commandments.

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

That is a nice analogy, but it simply avoids the problem. Laws do not "reach the depths of the heart". Legalism has been tried and it has failed, simply because we have a sinful nature. There is nothing in scripture that teaches us that we get super-human lawkeeping strenght that enables us to keep the mosaic law. The Spirit helps us in our weakness, but we still have weakness!

It doesn't reach the depths of the heart when you are carnally minded. The carnal mind is at enmity with the law of God. The carnal mind doesn't understand the depths of the ten commandments. The carnal mind sees thou shalt not commit adultery and thinks that it can only mean literally speaking, but does not reach the heart. The carnal mind is wrong.

The law reaches the depths of the heart. Jesus taught that if you look upon a woman with lust, you commit adultery. Is this written in the law? When someone keeps looking at the letter, they cannot see that. But when someone has the Spirit, they know that the law means thou shalt not commit adultery at all. It does not just mean outwardly. It means inwardly as well.

I have already dealt with that in quite some detail. Have I said anywhere that we are "allowed" to break the law? NO! Did Paul say anywhere that we are "allowed" to break the law? NO. Does that mean that we are still under the mosaic law? NO!!! The fact of the matter is that we are eventually sin, in many ways, not because we are allowed to sin, but because we have a sinful nature that cannot keep the law. Try to understand the distinction!

I have also pointed out, time after time, that the law does NOT prevent us from sinning. Why are you ignoring this? It isn't the law that does this! We can only fix our eyes on Jesus and nurture the seed that was planted in our hearts. By remaining in Christ, and remaining in the belief that his resurrected Spirit lives in us, we can fulfil the requirements of the law.

You seem to ignore this and just keep posting verses that don't support your stance at all.

Just because you are not under the law does not mean you can break the commandments. I am hearing what you are saying, but you are missing what Paul is saying. Just because you aren't under the ten commandments doesn't mean that you don't have to keep them. You still have to keep every single one of them, including the Sabbath. I am not denying that someone is going to mess up. I am denying that you don't have to keep the Sabbath, which is part of that law.

It is Jesus who prevents us from sinning, Jesus frees us from sin. And if Jesus frees you from sin, you will be found obeying the law. You will also obey the Sabbath commandment because it is part of the law. I am not saying the ten commandments give you strength not to sin. I apologize if any of my previous posts gives the idea that the ten commandments free you from sin. The ten commandments give you knowledge of the sin. And when one accepts Jesus, they are freed from their transgressions. In this way the commandments bring liberation. Not that they themselves gave you strength, Christ did that. But because of the knowledge of sin, you saw your need for liberation, and sought it out.

Sure, no problem. Even James spoke about this when he said:

"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently intothe perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does."

Notice here that not only does James define specifically what the "perfect law that gives freedom" is, he even gives us examples throughout his letter of that law should be carried out - NOT by obeying the 10 commandments, but by doing things such as "looking after orphans and widows" and "not showing favoritism".

The only time James mentions the mosaic commandments is in the very misunderstood verse in chapeter 2 where he says:

"For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker." (James 2:11)

However, not only does this verse NOT support what legalists are trying to teach, it ignores the surrounding context. James does not use this verse to support obedience to the mosaic law, but rather uses it as an analogy!

If you read verses 1-13 then you will see what I mean. Rather throwing the old covenant laws into the new covenant and mixing them all together in a big confusing mess, he is actually making a distinction. He does this by comparing the Law of Christ with the OT law, showing that breaking the Law of Christ (showing favoritism and harboring judgmental and evil thoughts) is just as serious as breaking the OT law. In other words, just as if you break one of the commandments then the law condemns you as a lawbreaker, being judemental and discriminating against your brother ALSO breaks the Law of Christ and condemns you as a lawbreaker - a lawbreaker of Christs Law! Read this passage of scripture carefully and you will see.

Favoritism is murder. One is spiritually breaking thou shalt not kill when they are showing favoritism like that. The example given shows a person who despises a poor man, and chose the rich man over the poor man, even by the simple act of choosing the rich man to sit in the favored spot. There was murder in that persons heart. That is why James then points out two of the ten commandments and says if they are breaking the commandment thou shalt not kill. Respect of persons is the sin being mentioned here, and James shows that that is murder. This is what I mean that the ten commandments reach the heart. The carnal mind doesn't see that. But the spiritual mind does. The mind of Christ knows that favoritism is murder. James completely supports obedience to the ten commandments.

Again, try to disinguish between laws made for lawbreakers, and the law which was made for the righteous. Every time the word "law" or "commandment" does not mean that what the new testament authors were referring to is the 10 commandments.

And every time you see the word Sabbath, it does not mean the seventh day Sabbath. You are a lawbreaker. So who is the law for. You. I am a lawbreaker. So who is the law for? Me. We all are lawbreakers, so who is the law for? Every single one of us. The difference is there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But you cannot be in Christ if you willfully break the any of the ten commandments, including the Sabbath. This isn't to say that just because you didn't know about the Sabbath you aren't a Christian. I will not be misrepresented to say something like that. This is saying that those who willfully knowingly and willfully transgress any precept, while having the knowledge of the precept, is in open sin. And if one continues in open sin, they will be lost.

No, Colossians 2 says nothing about any such distinction. Sometimes Paul speaks about specific laws and sometimes he speaks about the law in general in order to illustrate a principle. You need to read his entire doctrine to sort out what the best possible interpretation is. But neither Paul or anyone else in the NT refers to the 10 commandments as a separate unit. The only exception is 2 Cor 3:7-11 and we all know what that tells us.

Read the chapter entirely and point out where any of the ten commandments are mentioned. Does the context say anything about the ten commandments? And untrue, because the separation is made. Need I point out that though we are not under a law (it's not Christ's law that we are not under), there is a law that is still established? Romans 3:31. Or that that there is some law which is carnal, Hebrews 9:10, but there is certainly a spiritual one, Romans 7:12-14. The ten commandments are the established spiritual law. As I said, the carnal mind cannot see that. It only sees thou shalt not kill to mean it literally. But the spirit shows that thou shalt not kill at all. Whether it's outwardly, or inwardly.

Yes, exactly. The escape from Egypt is a shadow of our salvation, just as taking the promised land symbolizes the process of salvation. But that shadow does not point back to another shadow! It point towards the reality in Christ!

Keeping the sabbath, for a christian, is avoiding a gospel of works!

John begs to differ about the Sabbath.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

What's the Lord's day? Let's not ask the world, let's ask the Scriptures. Notice this is the Lord's day, not the Day of the Lord, and not a day given unto the Lord, but the Lord's day.


Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


What was John doing in the spirit on the Lord's day?

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Scripture has spoken.

Oh boy... The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. Despite that you try to quote Exodus and Deutronomy to prove you point??? Sigh...

Does the following say anything to you at all:

"For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory." 2 Cor 3:10

Now you tell me why you think God would keep a mere shadow, that lacks glory in heaven rather than the Law of Christ - the reality that has surpassing glory!

How is thou shalt not kill a shadow? Thou shalt not commit adultery? Thou shalt not steal? Are any of the ten commandments, not including the fourth though, shadows? How about the Sabbath though? If your answer is that the Sabbath is a shadow, but none of the other commandments are then it is clear what the problem is. The Sabbath.

I do keep the sabbath - by not persuing justification through works rather than faith in Christ. For those who are in Christ have entered the 7th day by way of faith. Those who are breaking the sabbath are the people who look towards the law for justification. And even though you claim to be justified by faith in Christ it is obvious that you do not believe that you are since you think that the evidence of your faith is reflected by your ability to obey the 10 commandments.

So if some man literally kills another man, he's keeping the 6th commandment, right? What if he literally steals from another man, is he keeping the eighth commandment? What if he literally is bowing down before idols, he's not committing idolatry right? The same logic follows through with every single one of the commandments, but for some reason once we get to the Sabbath, breaking it passes as a means of keeping it. That makes absolutely no sense. You're applying different logic to the 4th commandment than you are to the other commandments. That's inconsistent.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[mjrhealth]

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

How much more burden are some willing to place upon others ??

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Whose yoke do we carry???

In all His Love

 

[UppsalaDragby]

I have provided Scripture. I provided Matthew 22:37-40 which shows Jesus pointing out the great commandments. I provided Romans 13:8-10 which shows Paul pointing to 5 of the ten commandments, saying if there be any other commandment, and saying it is briefly comprehended as Love thy neighbor as thyself. Again, Paul pointed to 5 of the ten commandments (not any mosaic ordinances), said if there be any other commandment (he did not mention honoring your father and mother) that it is briefly comprehended in the saying love your neighbor as yourself.

You have provided scripture where commandments are mentioned, but you haven't provided commandments that when speaking by themselves support your theological stance.

Matthew 22:37-40 simply lists the greatest commandment that existed under the prevailing covenant and says absolutely nothing about the sabbath.

Romans 13:8-10 teaches us that love is the fulfilment of the law, which I have already dealt with. This verse also say nothing about the sabbath.

Why are you posting the same verses again?

Do you understand what Paul is saying? Jesus's words love your neighbor as yourself summarized the last six commandments. This is exactly what Paul has just said in Romans 13:8-10. And Jesus said that the two great commandments are likened unto each other. We can then reason that the first great commandment summarizes the first four commandments. And this is the proof that we are to keep the commandments, including the Sabbath.

No, that is not what Paul is saying and if you take Paul's entire doctrine into consideration then you would realize that cannot be what he is saying! You don't seem to care whether or not your doctrine causes huge contradictions in scripture as long as you pull out everything you can that has to do with commandments.

Nothing in my theology does that. Everything I have written here can all be harmonized with Paul's doctrine, and that is what sound doctrine should do.

Now what Paul is saying is that love fulfils the requirements of the law. As I have already pointed out, he is saying "love is the fulfillment of the law" and not "the law is the fulfillment of love".

To fulfil something is to satisfy it's requirements. In this case it is like a clause at the end of agreement, where points A, B, and C, are the demands that the applicant must satisfy. At the bottom of this imaginary agreement is a footnote stating that if, alternatively, so-and-so is done then the requirements A, B, and C are not binding.

A scriptural example of this is in Romans 7:2,3

"For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man."

He then goes on to explain that "by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (verse 6)

What you are saying is that despite the fact that the womans husband has died, which fulfils the legal obligations, she has to divorse her new husband and go back to her dead husband!

This supports what I said because it shows the law only brought condemnation and death because of sin. What did Jesus come to free us from? Sin. Not from obedience to the law, but He came to free us from sin. If you are freed from sin, you are able to keep the ten commandments.

Sin is breaking the law you that you are subject to, not one that you are not subject to.

Are you saying it's legalism to keep the first commandment? The second? The third? Skip the fourth for now, what about the fifth? The sixth? The seventh? The eighth? The ninth? The tenth? If you answer is no to all those, then go back to number four. Is it legalism to keep that one? If so, then it seems that your problem is not with the ten commandments. The problem is with the Sabbath.

Whether or not it is legalism depends on the method you use to keep these commandments. Firstly, if your focus is on a list of laws written on stone then you prove that these laws are external to you. Secondly, all you are doing is showing that you are trying to achieve your goal by human effort.

David would walk at liberty, for he seeks the Lord's precepts. What precepts could he possibly seek if he was seeking liberty? Was it the law of Moses? No, the Bible calls that bondage.

David did not keep the mosaic law! He murdered a man and committed adultry! The law he kept was the Law of Christ.

Is this passage saying that it's bondage for someone to keep thou shalt not kill? How is that bondage? It's bondage if you cannot keep it, because that makes you a murderer. What Paul is talking about in this passage is the mosaic law. The mosaic law is not carried over into the New Covenant, but the ten commandments are, which are written upon the tables of our hearts, like God promised.

That is a perverted argument. Of course it's not bondage not to kill someone! Where bondage comes in is when you shifting focus away from Christ and start relying on laws to validate one's righteousness.

Now it may appear we would have a problem though. How would that which appears to bring death and condemnation set one at liberty? Remember, it was sin that brought death and condemnation, by taking occasion by the commandment. And Christ came to free us from our sins. And if Christ is freeing us from sin, then will the ten commandments bring death and condemnation? No. That which gave knowledge of the sin, now gives knowledge of liberty from sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

As for Abraham: Did you know that there were commandments, statutes and laws before the ten commandments were written down for the Israelites?
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham wasn't part of the mosaic law, but it is clear Abraham obeyed laws, commandments, and statutes. Abraham kept something. And it's worth looking into what that something was.

I never said that Abraham didn't have any commandments! We know that he did since God commanded him to offer Isaac, and to leave his country and go to another. He was also given the covenant of circumcision which he also obeyed.

What we do know however is that he wasn't given the mosaic laws:

"You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." Neh 9:14
Neither were any of the patriarchs given the mosaic laws:

"The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

So my point still stands! The only ones who were given the 10 commandments were those of the rebellious nation. So you can twist things around all you want and pretend that the mosiac law brings freedom, but anyone who knows scripture can easily see that such a teaching is wrong.

It doesn't reach the depths of the heart when you are carnally minded. The carnal mind is at enmity with the law of God. The carnal mind doesn't understand the depths of the ten commandments. The carnal mind sees thou shalt not commit adultery and thinks that it can only mean literally speaking, but does not reach the heart. The carnal mind is wrong.

So who according to you is so free from a carnal mind that they can keep the law? You? Anyone?

Just because you are not under the law does not mean you can break the commandments. I am hearing what you are saying, but you are missing what Paul is saying. Just because you aren't under the ten commandments doesn't mean that you don't have to keep them. You still have to keep every single one of them, including the Sabbath. I am not denying that someone is going to mess up. I am denying that you don't have to keep the Sabbath, which is part of that law.

If someone messes up then he is by definition not keeping the law. I have already dealt with these issues. Scripture, speaking for itself, proves you to be wrong. Nothing in the new covenant says that we have to keep the mosaic law. We are not under that law, but under the Law of Christ.

You have still not provided one single scripture that teaches us that Christians are required to observe the sabbath according to the mosaic law. That is what this topic is all about. Now I know that the reason that you have not given any such scriptures is because they do not exist. But let me ask you this anyway:

Do you, or do you not have any scriptures that speak for themselves and clearly show that Christians must observe the sabbath according to the mosaic law?

It is Jesus who prevents us from sinning, Jesus frees us from sin. And if Jesus frees you from sin, you will be found obeying the law. You will also obey the Sabbath commandment because it is part of the law. I am not saying the ten commandments give you strength not to sin. I apologize if any of my previous posts gives the idea that the ten commandments free you from sin. The ten commandments give you knowledge of the sin. And when one accepts Jesus, they are freed from their transgressions. In this way the commandments bring liberation. Not that they themselves gave you strength, Christ did that. But because of the knowledge of sin, you saw your need for liberation, and sought it out.

Yes, exactly! We know what sin is through the law. So now that we know what it is, don't you think it is time to move on? The foundational truths in the gospel do not need to be laid over and over again:

"Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death".

Once we know what sin is we leave it and put our focus on Christ, and christ alone. Just as we no longer need to sacrifice animals year after year, we no longer need to be constantly taught what sin is. These things were used to point us towards Christ. Once you've found your destination don't need to go back and fourth all the time. We have arrived!

Favoritism is murder. One is spiritually breaking thou shalt not kill when they are showing favoritism like that. The example given shows a person who despises a poor man, and chose the rich man over the poor man, even by the simple act of choosing the rich man to sit in the favored spot. There was murder in that persons heart. That is why James then points out two of the ten commandments and says if they are breaking the commandment thou shalt not kill. Respect of persons is the sin being mentioned here, and James shows that that is murder. This is what I mean that the ten commandments reach the heart. The carnal mind doesn't see that. But the spiritual mind does. The mind of Christ knows that favoritism is murder. James completely supports obedience to the ten commandments.

Ok, this is getting ridiculous. If you want so badly to twist everything around and read everything with 10 commandment glasses, then be my guest...

However, I just can't for the life of me understand that you can say things like favoritism is "spiritual" murder but won't have anything to do with the idea that sabbath-keeping is anything other than its literal interpretation DESPITE the fact that the bible tells us that it is! You treat the commandments that scripture does not say are shadows as if they were shadows, and yet the commandment that scripture tells us IS a shadow, you take literally!

And every time you see the word Sabbath, it does not mean the seventh day Sabbath. You are a lawbreaker. So who is the law for. You. I am a lawbreaker. So who is the law for? Me. We all are lawbreakers, so who is the law for? Every single one of us. The difference is there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But you cannot be in Christ if you willfully break the any of the ten commandments, including the Sabbath. This isn't to say that just because you didn't know about the Sabbath you aren't a Christian. I will not be misrepresented to say something like that. This is saying that those who willfully knowingly and willfully transgress any precept, while having the knowledge of the precept, is in open sin. And if one continues in open sin, they will be lost.

You only just finished saying that we are not sinners because Christ has set us free from sin, and now suddenly we are ALL lawbreakers. I have already proven, scripturally, that we are no longer under the law. Learn to live with it.

Read the chapter entirely and point out where any of the ten commandments are mentioned. Does the context say anything about the ten commandments? And untrue, because the separation is made. Need I point out that though we are not under a law (it's not Christ's law that we are not under), there is a law that is still established? Romans 3:31. Or that that there is some law which is carnal, Hebrews 9:10, but there is certainly a spiritual one, Romans 7:12-14. The ten commandments are the established spiritual law. As I said, the carnal mind cannot see that. It only sees thou shalt not kill to mean it literally. But the spirit shows that thou shalt not kill at all. Whether it's outwardly, or inwardly.

Why would I need to point out the ten commandments in that chapter? Paul speaks about the "writen code". The ten commandments were part of the written code, were they not? And you are just throwing scriptures around indiscriminately. Hebrews 9:10 has it's own context, just as do the ones from Romans.

So where is this famous separation???

You are not making sense.

John begs to differ about the Sabbath.
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
What's the Lord's day? Let's not ask the world, let's ask the Scriptures. Notice this is the Lord's day, not the Day of the Lord, and not a day given unto the Lord, but the Lord's day.
Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
What was John doing in the spirit on the Lord's day?
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Scripture has spoken.

No, scripture hasn't spoken, you have spoken. Big difference. The support you provide here is incredibly weak because there is nothing in revelation that indicates that John was referring to that passage in Isaiah, and Isaiah doesn't even use the term! All you are doing is pointing to a verse that contains the word Lord (yeah, those are really rare), and that points out that the sabbath was a holy day, which we already knew!

How is thou shalt not kill a shadow? Thou shalt not commit adultery? Thou shalt not steal? Are any of the ten commandments, not including the fourth though, shadows? How about the Sabbath though? If your answer is that the Sabbath is a shadow, but none of the other commandments are then it is clear what the problem is. The Sabbath.

The sabbath is a shadow because scripture tells us that it is. It has nothing to do with the other commandments. Why would they need to be shadows? Not everything in the law is a shadow, but many things are.

You're applying different logic to the 4th commandment than you are to the other commandments. That's inconsistent.

I'm not applying logic, you are. I am applying scripture.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

And? What do those scriptures have to do with anything? I don't see what your point is.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Mostly during my 27 years as a christian I have observed Sunday as the sabbath
But blew that most of the time because I used to work a lot of Sundays
I intuitively felt that Saturday was the true Sabbath as observed by Orthodox Jews
After all , who would know better than them
I am semi retired and now for fun take both Saturday and Sunday as days of rest
I feel that Saturday is the "real" one of the two

I feel the few people who are so wrapped up in the sabbath issue are wasting a lot of energy , giving themselves ulcers , and some of them are simply looking for an excuse to show somebody else how wrong they are.

Christians hating Christians is nothing new and most of it stems from the prideful heart who wishes to proclaim his religion is best and the rest are wrong.

At times like that I am glad it will be Jesus Christ who judges those issues. I expect he will be very accommodating to all his followers.

Now I have another thorn for the flesh of the Sabbath day purist

1. I think we all could agree the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday on our Gregorian calendar ... and as far as I know the worldwide Jew observes it as such

2. Trouble is the early Israelite's used their own 360 day calendar so how can those 7 day periods reconcile with today's 365 day calendar.

3. To me they cannot .... some flexibility is required on all sides of the debate.

 

[mjrhealth]

Simply put, if you are worried about not keeping something than you are not in faith but walking in the flesh, this also means you are not resting in Christ, if you believe God will get mad at you for not observing the sabbath than you are trying to Uphold teh law, the law only brings death, thats what it did when it was given and that is what it does now, that will never change.

"yet you wont come to me so you can have eternal life",

that hanst changed either

In all His Love

 

[ServingTheMostHigh]

Let me guess what is going on here
1. You make one post , you are new here
2. You ask a short question , in this case about the sabbath
3. We give our answers
4. You disagree with our answers
5. Then you proceed to copy and paste your endless arguments
6. That is what I think .

Because:
7. You have been booted from all the other forums
8. Or you did not win your arguments elsewhere
9. Or you are looking for fresh meat to butcher
10. That is what I think

Now I will answer your sabbath question
1. I observe Saturday Sabbath
2. And I observe Sunday Sabbath
3. I love the two days of rest
4. And it saves a lot of arguing with people like you.
5. Notice I didn't quote one single scripture
6. Because it is not necessary

I look forward to your response
And to see if my prediction is correct
I can smell you guys a mile away

Thank you
Best wishes
Arnie M.

Hello Arnie,

Where does it say in scripture that the Sabbath takes place on the last and first day of the week?

(Gen 2:2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

(Gen 2:3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

(Mat 15:9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

When asked to name the greatest commandment, Jesus did not name any of the ten commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17.

Instead, He named two commandments recorded in Deuteronomy.

Gentiles err when they assume that God gave only 10 commandments to the Israelites. There are 613 commandments recorded in the Old Testament.

So, why is it that a Gentile will insist on obeying the commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17 but not on obeying the other 603 commandments in the Old Testament?

In his epistle, the Apostle James writes, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it."

If Gentiles are going to be told to obey the commandments in the Old Testament, then what is the biblical rationale for telling them to obey only the commandments in Exodus 20:1-17?

During the first Church council, (Acts 15), the Apostles discussed what rules that the Gentile believers in Jesus were to follow.
This is what the Apostles concluded:

"For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."

Peace and Love,

(Mat 22:36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

(Mat 22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(Mat 22:38) This is the first and great commandment.

(Mat 22:39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The first commandment that Christ talks about covers the first 5 commandements given to Moses: (Exo 20:3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

(Exo 20:4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

(Exo 20:5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

(Exo 20:6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(Exo 20:7) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

(Exo 20:8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

(Exo 20:9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

(Exo 20:10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

(Exo 20:11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The 2nd commandment that Christ said goes for the other 5 commandements that was given to Moses: (Exo 20:12) Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

(Exo 20:13) Thou shalt not kill.

(Exo 20:14) Thou shalt not commit adultery.

(Exo 20:15) Thou shalt not steal.

(Exo 20:16) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

I agree with you that if people say that they follow Chist and The Most High, why don't they follow all the commandments??? I understand the difference between Jew and Gentile, but you can't say that you love Christ and The Most High, and not follow the commandments.(1Jn 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

There are laws and holy days in the bible that people do not follow because they will always bring up that it was for the Jews, but like I said, how can you follow Christ and The Most High but follow Christmas, Thanksgiving, Holloween???

(Mat 6:24) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

[Mungo]

It's very simple.

The Ten Commandments were part of the laws of the Sinai Covenant. The Sinai Covenant is legally ended.

We are under a new Covenant with a new set of laws. Yes many of them are the same as under the Old Covenant because they are eternal moral laws but we keep them because they are laws under the Covenant we are in.

The Old (SInai) Covenant was never applicable to the Gentiles anyway.

Take the law against murder. It was wrong from the very beginning. We know that because God condemned Cain for murdering Abel. It is wrong under the New Covenant (e.g. 1Jn 3:15, Mk 7:20-23).

And that goes for all the moral laws in the Ten Commandments. Saturday Sabbath keeping is not a moral issue. Giving time to God is, but that was not the main function of the Saturday Sabbath and can be done on any day. It was a sign of the Old Covenant. ([SIZE=12pt]Ex 31:12-13, 16-17). [/SIZE]
If we are not in the Old Covenant we do not need the sign. It was also a day of communal rest. Again we can rest on any day.

There is no command in the NT telling us to keep a Saturday Sabbath.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hello Arnie,

Where does it say in scripture that the Sabbath takes place on the last and first day of the week?

(Gen 2:2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

(Gen 2:3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

(Mat 15:9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

.
So rather that tell everybody how wrong were all are .... how about in your own words tell us the truth we have all been longing for.

Sure glad you are here to save us.

ps: no need to quote the bible .... we all have bibles

 

[lukethreesix]

The Seventh Day has not an evening or a morning. It is a continual observance and rest in God. Giving God only a portion of the week is not what Christ did or taught. We give everyday to the Lord.

 

[ServingTheMostHigh]

.
So rather that tell everybody how wrong were all are .... how about in your own words tell us the truth we have all been longing for.

Sure glad you are here to save us.

ps: no need to quote the bible .... we all have bibles

Hello Arnie,

I am not here to tell anyone that they are wrong. I just asked you a simple question, do not get an attitude with me. This forum was created for people to bring up topics so that we can discuss them together, not to get mad at someone for asking for scriptural proof on something that someone else believes. As followers of The Most High and Christ, we should be able to talk about things without getting hurt feelings.

(Pro 27:17) Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

I am well aware that everyone on here has a bible and we should be sharing information with one another. What good is it to have knowledge and wisdom and keep it to yourself? If we all did that we would not be on this forum or out there trying to spread truth to other people.

(Jas 2:14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

(Jas 2:17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

(Jas 2:18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


May you have a blessed day

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hello Arnie,

I am not here to tell anyone that they are wrong. I just asked you a simple question, do not get an attitude with me. This forum was created for people to bring up topics so that we can discuss them together, not to get mad at someone for asking for scriptural proof on something that someone else believes. As followers of The Most High and Christ, we should be able to talk about things without getting hurt feelings.

.
I dont just have an attitude with you.

My whole point and all my sarcasm in this thread is directed to the guy in the first post ..... a newby ..... drops a grenade .... leaves the room ..... and hasn't been back since.

In the meantime the thread goes on and on for months and years ........ you should look up all the sabbath threads there have been , they are all the same , endless debates about a day of the week

Then you drop by saying things like Iron sharpens Iron & faith vs works .... What does that have to do with anything ?

Besides .... earlier I said I take both Saturday and Sunday as a Sabbath .... not for any religious reasons , it is in order to dis-arm the Sabbath arguing people.

My strategy did not work

The arguing continues

 

[horsecamp]

Raeneske

OH your a 7DAY Adventist ..

I knew you were not lutheran


I scene the luther quote.
on the bottom of your pages.

and was wondering who would use that particular quote.

Lutherans don't even use that particular quote though we believe what it says ..

Your talking about Saturday worship.. Roman Catholics where I Live 'worships on Saturday..

I think the pope Francis has worship services now A lot on Saturday

The point is that's all fine any one is free to worship on any day they want ..that's minor league stuff..

who they worship and why they worship is the major league stuff..


any way most every body made most of the very important points .

THOSE PARTICULAR TEN COMMANDMENT INTENDED ONLY FOR THE PEOPLE and their offspring God took out of Egypt being only a shadow --------------------the real rest is Jesus now

the laws that are Written in all peoples hearts are the ones that still apply. and any one who thinks Saturday is written in all people hearts .any pagan tribe worshiping what ever proves that not true ..


have a wonderful day.. and it never hurts to worship every day.. OPEN BIBLES and reading resting at Jesus feet KICKIN BACK JUST LISTNING TO HIM as Mary who chose the better thing than Martha did.

 

[Boaz]

Welcome Gracealone

The Sabbath was only ever given to the Jews.

It was part of the Sinai Covenant.

Christians are under the New Covenant not the SInai Covenant.

God bless

BTW - Jesus observed the Sabbath because he was a Jew

Were not the other 9 part of the sinai covenant also ? :unsure:

 

[Mungo]

Were not the other 9 part of the sinai covenant also ?

I assume you are referring to the Ten Comandments.

See reply #90

 

[Boaz]

It's very simple.

The Ten Commandments were part of the laws of the Sinai Covenant. The Sinai Covenant is legally ended.

We are under a new Covenant with a new set of laws. Yes many of them are the same as under the Old Covenant because they are eternal moral laws but we keep them because they are laws under the Covenant we are in.

The Old (SInai) Covenant was never applicable to the Gentiles anyway.

Take the law against murder. It was wrong from the very beginning. We know that because God condemned Cain for murdering Abel. It is wrong under the New Covenant (e.g. 1Jn 3:15, Mk 7:20-23).

And that goes for all the moral laws in the Ten Commandments. Saturday Sabbath keeping is not a moral issue. Giving time to God is, but that was not the main function of the Saturday Sabbath and can be done on any day. It was a sign of the Old Covenant. ([SIZE=12pt]Ex 31:12-13, 16-17). [/SIZE]
If we are not in the Old Covenant we do not need the sign. It was also a day of communal rest. Again we can rest on any day.

There is no command in the NT telling us to keep a Saturday Sabbath.

Please explain this verse as to what time peroid is this ? Thanks


Isaiah 66:22-24
King James Version (KJV)


[SIZE=.75em]22 [/SIZE]For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[SIZE=.75em]23 [/SIZE]And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from onesabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
[SIZE=.75em]24 [/SIZE]And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Welcome Gracealone

The Sabbath was only ever given to the Jews.

It was part of the Sinai Covenant.

Christians are under the New Covenant not the SInai Covenant.

God bless

BTW - Jesus observed the Sabbath because he was a Jew

Who is a Jew ? and Why

I was responding to this claim of yours:


Let's look at that verse within its context.


That last commandment the Jesus quoted ("love your neighbor as yourself") isn't in the Decalogue. Instead,it is among the commandments given in the 19th chapter of Leviticus.

So, when Jesus says in verse 17 "keep the commandments", he isn't referring to just the Decalogue.

As I have explained before, Gentiles have a habit of believing that there are only ten commandments in the Torah, which isn't true.

Yes, obeying the Sabbath commandment is strongly emphasized in the Tanakh, but it and the other nine commandments of the Decalogue aren't the only commandments that God required His people to obey.

So, why emphasize obedience to just ten of more than 600 commandments?

Was eye for eye part of the 600 ? Do you still keep it ?

What ever happened to "love is the fulfillment of the law? We love our neighbors and the 4th commandment is fulfilled? Apparently so.

As I shared in a previous post (35), we are keeping the sabbath by resting from our works. This is the new covenant. Many sabbath keepers make it merely about which day one goes to church, calling us "Sunday worshipers".. However, the 4th commandment is not about worship, it is about rest. The reality is that we who are resting in His work are in the sabbath rest. The new covenant is the fulfillment of the sabbath rest. The 4th commandment was a shadow of a future reality.

We can rest, and worship, every day of the week. Who is going to hinder the worship of God on any given day? Limit it to just one day? Really?

The works of law do not bring life (Gal.3:21). Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to they who believe (Rom.10:4). The law was instituted to confine all under sin until the seed should come. This includes the 4th commandment. Please refer to my reply #35, which goes into detail on this.

Whatever purpose or motive one has for worshiping God on the 7th day (or resting, as it were), it cannot include the justification for life, or for anything else for that matter. All things that come to us from God are freely given (Rom.8:32)...by faith.

Those of us who sincerely believe we are in fulfillment of the sabbath rest, have no fear of judgment from God. Our heart condemns us not. respectfully!

Did not God want Israel to worship Him everyday also ? So why did He mentioned the 7th day still ?

 

[Mungo]

Please explain this verse as to what time peroid is this ? Thanks


Isaiah 66:22-24
King James Version (KJV)


[SIZE=.75em]22 [/SIZE]For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[SIZE=.75em]23 [/SIZE]And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from onesabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
[SIZE=.75em]24 [/SIZE]And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

From one Sabbath to another means a week. People will worship God every day of the week not just on one particular day.

It's like saying people will worship from one Friday to the next Friday, or from one Satuday to the next Saturday, or from one Sunday to the next Sunday etc.,

I doesn't say people will worship on one sabbbath and on the next sabbath for ever..

It doesn't even say that people will keep (or observe) the Sabbath.

Who is a Jew ? and Why

If you want to be picky then perhaps I should have said Isrealites or Hebrews, but Jews is a common term.

"In common speech, the word "Jew" is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word "Judaism" is used to refer to their beliefs." (Judaism 101)

Who is a Jew?
"A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism." (Judaism 101)

 

[Boaz]

From one Sabbath to another means a week. People will worship God every day of the week not just on one particular day.

It's like saying people will worship from one Friday to the next Friday, or from one Satuday to the next Saturday, or from one Sunday to the next Sunday etc.,

I doesn't say people will worship on one sabbbath and on the next sabbath for ever..

It doesn't even say that people will keep (or observe) the Sabbath.


If you want to be picky then perhaps I should have said Isrealites or Hebrews, but Jews is a common term.

"In common speech, the word "Jew" is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word "Judaism" is used to refer to their beliefs." (Judaism 101)

Who is a Jew?
"A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism." (Judaism 101)

It is amazing how you twist that scripture in Isaiah to mean something otherwise

Also if the sabbath is for Jews as you said then Spritual to Jews are to keep sabbath also



Romans 2:28-29
King James Version (KJV)


[SIZE=.75em]28 [/SIZE]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[SIZE=.75em]29 [/SIZE]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Are you a spiritual Jew ?