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sacraments

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Lyn, May 30, 2008.

  1. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    (Red_Letters88;51046)
    Plain and simple- sacraments are a result of one who wants to make a religion out of Christianity. Btw, you show how many sacraments are biblically supported...True some are. THEN why do you feel men need to go further with them (than the bible), setting rules and importance higher than what was ever written? Sacraments are just another way of showing the world how boastful men can make a religion out of Christ.
    I notice you make assertions but nothing to back them up. How can you say "Sacraments are just another way of showing the world how boastful men can make a religion out of Christ." When it was Christ that instituted them. Why, when Jesus says “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19) and “The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk16:16), do you accuse people of being boastful because they obey him?
     
  2. Gareth

    Gareth New Member

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    (Red_Letters88;51046)
    Plain and simple- sacraments are a result of one who wants to make a religion out of Christianity. Btw, you show how many sacraments are biblically supported...True some are. THEN why do you feel men need to go further with them (than the bible), setting rules and importance higher than what was ever written? Sacraments are just another way of showing the world how boastful men can make a religion out of Christ.
    Plain and simple, Christ passed on these sacraments to His Apostles, and they passed them on through the Church today. I don't understand why people wish to deny what Jesus had come to do, to establish a community of believers and to honour these as sacred rites, such as baptism, holy communion, ordination, the anointing of the sick among others. I don't understand how this is so wrong. These are what have been in the Church, and the denial of these things and the denial that Christianity is a religion handed down through Jesus Christ and the Apostles is a rather modern phenomena.It's just as much a valid argument (probably more so) that those who wish to deny the way the more traditional churches practise, and who wish to deny this, are changing the message of Christ to suit modern times. I consider all non-denominational churches to be valid, however I dislike this stigma that is placed on those who wish to honour the sacraments Christ gave us. Surely as Christians we face tough enough times with the rise of secularism to be attacked from our own?
     
  3. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    (RichardBurger;51006)
    Water baptism is an outward symbol of an inward decision to place a person's faith in the work of God (Jesus) on the cross. But it does not save anyone. If it could then all a person has to do is be water baptized. This is the tragic result of saying water baptism saves.Richard [​IMG]
    Salvation is a process not just a one-off event. There is a parallel between the whole OT salvation event of the Exodus and eventual entry into the promised land (of Canaan)under the Old Covenant, and the salvation event for each individual under the New Covenant. That salvation event starts with baptism. As part of the initial salvation process the Jews had to perform prescribed rituals (the Passover meal, painting blood on the door posts and lintels). They were then saved from the slavery of Pharoah.As part of our initial salvation process we have to perform prescribed rituals in the rite of baptism (the immersion in, or pouring of, water and the words of baptism)."Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28:19). We are freed from the slavery of sin, from the power of Satan, to become children of God. "But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted" (Rom 6:17)"He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son." (Col 1:13)Baptism – water baptism – is what incorporates us into the New Covenant. It is the equivalent of circumcision under the Abramic covenant. Through baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as children of God."In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses, erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands." (Col 2:11-14)Just as with the Exodus it was a mighty work of God, so with baptism it is God's work to cleanse us from sin, to bring us into the New Covenant, to adopt us as his children. But we have to do what he commanded us to do before that happens.
     
  4. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    (winsome;51070)
    Salvation is a process not just a one-off event. There is a parallel between the whole OT salvation event of the Exodus and eventual entry into the promised land (of Canaan)under the Old Covenant, and the salvation event for each individual under the New Covenant. That salvation event starts with baptism. As part of the initial salvation process the Jews had to perform prescribed rituals (the Passover meal, painting blood on the door posts and lintels). They were then saved from the slavery of Pharoah.As part of our initial salvation process we have to perform prescribed rituals in the rite of baptism (the immersion in, or pouring of, water and the words of baptism)."Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28:19). We are freed from the slavery of sin, from the power of Satan, to become children of God. "But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted" (Rom 6:17)"He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son." (Col 1:13)Baptism – water baptism – is what incorporates us into the New Covenant. It is the equivalent of circumcision under the Abramic covenant. Through baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as children of God."In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses, erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands." (Col 2:11-14)Just as with the Exodus it was a mighty work of God, so with baptism it is God's work to cleanse us from sin, to bring us into the New Covenant, to adopt us as his children. But we have to do what he commanded us to do before that happens.
    You said; "Salvation is a process not just a one-off event. There is a parallel between the whole OT salvation event of the Exodus and eventual entry into the promised land (of Canaan)under the Old Covenant, and the salvation event for each individual under the New Covenant. That salvation event starts with baptism."What a bunch of garbage that is. So you believe salvation is a process. A process of works no doubt. -- Sorry, I certainly don't believe that.According to my Bible (NKJV) we are washed, sanctified, and justified by the Holy Spirit when (as soon as) we place our faith, trust, confidence, and hope in Jesus. In His work on the cross.1 Cor 6:1111 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. NKJVThe word "was" is past tense. It is a done deal.But, obviously, you can't see this as enough. According to your words, you insist we must start salvation by works and finish by works. In doing this you deminish the power of God and say it is not powerful enough.I feel sorry for you because you can never rest in the finished work of God on the cross.Richard [​IMG]
     
  5. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    (winsome;51064)
    I notice you make assertions but nothing to back them up. How can you say "Sacraments are just another way of showing the world how boastful men can make a religion out of Christ." When it was Christ that instituted them. Why, when Jesus says “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19) and “The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk16:16), do you accuse people of being boastful because they obey him?
    I am going to post an article about the Great Commission. You woulkd do well to read it.Richard [​IMG]
     
  6. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    (winsome;51070)
    Baptism – water baptism – is what incorporates us into the New Covenant. It is the equivalent of circumcision under the Abramic covenant. Through baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as children of God.
    "Baptism" is simply the transliteration of the Greek word "baptizo" which means immersion. It is immersion (baptism) that saves us, but it is NOT the symbolic baptism of water that removes dirt from the flesh, but rather the true immersion (baptism) that cleanses and sanctifies our wicked hearts from within, which is with the Spirit of God. You're confusing the symbol with what it is symbolizing, and thus missing the whole point of the Gospel.SealedEternal
     
  7. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

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    (SealedEternal;51130)
    "Baptism" is simply the transliteration of the Greek word "baptizo" which means immersion. It is immersion (baptism) that saves us, but it is NOT the symbolic baptism of water that removes dirt from the flesh, but rather the true immersion (baptism) that cleanses and sanctifies our wicked hearts from within, which is with the Spirit of God. You're confusing the symbol with what it is symbolizing, and thus missing the whole point of the Gospel.SealedEternal
    Thats been exactly my point, which I have a difficult time wording. Its almost as if they feel like the Jew "wall" of salvation/redemption is being put up again- this time inside of Christianity. We have to realize- these walls are torn down by grace. Now to the OP, Its not that I have a problem with the sacraments- its all the extra baggage.... which I call religion.
     
  8. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    (SealedEternal;51130)
    "Baptism" is simply the transliteration of the Greek word "baptizo" which means immersion. It is immersion (baptism) that saves us, but it is NOT the symbolic baptism of water that removes dirt from the flesh, but rather the true immersion (baptism) that cleanses and sanctifies our wicked hearts from within, which is with the Spirit of God. You're confusing the symbol with what it is symbolizing, and thus missing the whole point of the Gospel.SealedEternal
    I know where baptism come from thank you.As Gareth said about sacraments, they are "an outward physical sign of an inward spiritual motion", though I prefer "an outward sign of inward grace".The water is symbolic. Yes of course it is. It symbolises what is actually happening. I am not confusing anything.I do not understand why some Christians seem to have such a hangup about baptism with water. It is so deeply rooted in scripture.
     
  9. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    (RichardBurger;51099)
    You said; "Salvation is a process not just a one-off event. There is a parallel between the whole OT salvation event of the Exodus and eventual entry into the promised land (of Canaan)under the Old Covenant, and the salvation event for each individual under the New Covenant. That salvation event starts with baptism."What a bunch of garbage that is. So you believe salvation is a process. A process of works no doubt. -- Sorry, I certainly don't believe that.
    Calling it garbage is not an answer and just shows the emptiness of your arguments. The parallel between the Jews Salvation journey from the slavery of Egypt to the promised land of Canaan is a fascinating parallel to our journey from the slavery of sin to the promised land of heaven.(RichardBurger;51099)
    According to my Bible (NKJV) we are washed, sanctified, and justified by the Holy Spirit when (as soon as) we place our faith, trust, confidence, and hope in Jesus. In His work on the cross.1 Cor 6:1111 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. NKJVThe word "was" is past tense. It is a done deal.
    Your quote says nothing about placing our faith, trust and hope in Jesus. It does say "But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus"Sounds like baptism to me.(RichardBurger;51099)
    But, obviously, you can't see this as enough. According to your words, you insist we must start salvation by works and finish by works. In doing this you deminish the power of God and say it is not powerful enough.I feel sorry for you because you can never rest in the finished work of God on the cross.Richard [​IMG]
    Hmm. What did I actually sayJust as with the Exodus it was a mighty work of God, so with baptism it is God's work to cleanse us from sin, to bring us into the New Covenant, to adopt us as his children.So where have I said God's work is not powerful enough?Where have I said we start our salvation by works?Where have I said we finish our salvation by works?As to the process, or journey, was it not St. Paul who said:"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"
     
  10. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    (RichardBurger;51099)
    What a bunch of garbage that is. So you believe salvation is a process. A process of works no doubt. -- Sorry, I certainly don't believe that.According to my Bible (NKJV) we are washed, sanctified, and justified by the Holy Spirit when (as soon as) we place our faith, trust, confidence, and hope in Jesus. In His work on the cross.1 Cor 6:1111 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. NKJVThe word "was" is past tense. It is a done deal.
    Being "sanctified" is a process that is done through our faith in Christ, who gives us His Spirit to cleanse our wicked hearts and write the Spirit of His Law upon them. You're both part right and part wrong. It is not a process of religious works to save ourselves, nor is it an immediate event by believing some basic facts. First one must believe the facts of Christ, who He is and what He has done, and then must trust in Him, and walk by His Spirit, so that He may do His work in us to clean house and make us a sanctified child of His, who bears good fruit and does His will.Sacramental salvation claims that we can cleanse ourselves by performing religious rituals, which is patently false. Only God's Spirit is able to perform this act, and it is done through our faith in Him, and not by religious ceremonies.Easy believism on the other hand, claims that all you need to do is "believe" and suddenly you are born again and have eternal security. That is also false. It is through our faith that Christ's Spirit brings us through the process of sanctification, but faith is simply the dynamic that sustains us in this process, but it is not an end upon itself. One is not saved, nor do they have eternal security, until God's Spirit has done His work in us. That's why scripture says that those who are born of God no longer practice sin. Millions of people have been told that they have eternal life because they "believed", said a "sinners prayer", responded to an "altar call", or some other such profession of faith, but in fact they have not been born of God because they stopped the process and declared it finnished before God's Spirit did His work of sanctification in them.Millions of others are told they are saved because they are baptized, take the Lord's supper, or perform some other religious rituals. They too are subverting the Spirits work of sanctifying and regenerating them, because they think they are taking care of it themselves.SealedEternal
     
  11. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    (SealedEternal;51176)
    Being "sanctified" is a process that is done through our faith in Christ, who gives us His Spirit to cleanse our wicked hearts and write the Spirit of His Law upon them. You're both part right and part wrong. It is not a process of religious works to save ourselves, nor is it an immediate event by believing some basic facts. First one must believe the facts of Christ, who He is and what He has done, and then must trust in Him, and walk by His Spirit, so that He may do His work in us to clean house and make us a sanctified child of His, who bears good fruit and does His will.Sacramental salvation claims that we can cleanse ourselves by performing religious rituals, which is patently false. Only God's Spirit is able to perform this act, and it is done through our faith in Him, and not by religious ceremonies.Easy believism on the other hand, claims that all you need to do is "believe" and suddenly you are born again and have eternal security. That is also false. It is through our faith that Christ's Spirit brings us through the process of sanctification, but faith is simply the dynamic that sustains us in this process, but it is not an end upon itself. One is not saved, nor do they have eternal security, until God's Spirit has done His work in us. That's why scripture says that those who are born of God no longer practice sin. Millions of people have been told that they have eternal life because they "believed", said a "sinners prayer", responded to an "altar call", or some other such profession of faith, but in fact they have not been born of God because they stopped the process and declared it finnished before God's Spirit did His work of sanctification in them.Millions of others are told they are saved because they are baptized, take the Lord's supper, or perform some other religious rituals. They too are subverting the Spirits work of sanctifying and regenerating them, because they think they are taking care of it themselves.SealedEternal
    Since you seem to have missed my post about rituals I'll repeat it.(winsome;50953)
    You regard rituals as empty and useless. But this is not the case. There is a power in them. Let me explain. If I am hungry and have a £50 note I could eat the piece of paper and it would do nothing for me. I would still be hungry. But I could go into a restaurant and have a big four course meal with a bottle of fine wine. Then I would not feel hungry. You see the £50 note has power to feed me, not because of anything intrinsic in the bit of paper itself, but because of the promise attached to it. It actually says at the top “Bank of England I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of fifty pounds” The fifty pound note does what it does because of the promise attached to it. What is the difference between a real £50 note and a forged one? The difference is that a forged one has no promise attached.It is like this with rituals and symbols. Some of them have promises attached; promises made by God, either explicitly or implicitly.When God created the world he involved man in His work – by asking Adam to name the animals (Gen 2:19-20). God didn’t have to do that. He was capable of naming them himself. Then God gave man the job of completing creation by taking dominion over the earth and telling him to fill it and subdue it (Gen 1:28). And so it has continued – God involves man in his mighty works. He doesn’t need to but for some reason he wants to. He gives him a part to play, even though it is God doing 99.9999999999999999……..% of the work.Sometimes man’s part seems trivial and pointless such as Moses having to keep his arms raised in the battle with the Amalekites in Ex 17. God could give victory to Joshua without that, but he seemed to want Moses to be involved as well.Take the Exodus itself, a wonderful pre-figuring of our salvation story. At the beginning God saves the Israelites from the slavery of Egypt through the waters of the red sea. God told Moses to lift up his staff and when he did so God parted the sea. Why? God could perfectly well part the sea without Moses doing anything. Similarly God could pass over the Israelites first born without the blood on the doorposts. He knew who they were. But God gives us a part to play in the salvation process. And so it has been through the history of salvation. God gave many rituals to Israelites. When the carried out the rituals God acted. God acted not because man made him do so, but because God had promised he would and he tied the promise to the ritual. It was not their work but Gods. They did it in obedience to God, who acted in response to his promise and to the obedience of his people.Take the sin offerings of goats and sheep that were sacrificed, or the sin offering of the goat sent into the wilderness. Again God could have forgiven people without this. But he wanted some gesture on their part. It did not earn them forgiveness.It’s the same today. God has not changed. He wants to get involved with our messy physical world, and he wants us to play our part, tiny though it is, in the salvation process. He has given us rituals, actions to do, and has tied promises to them. His is the power but he wants us to do our little bit. We do not earn his saving grace, and it does not diminish the efficacy of his work on the cross , but we do it because he wants us to. God can, and does, act without these acts of ours, but nevertheless he has tied promises to them and he does fulfil his promises.Let me take four examples of rituals, God’s promises and how he acts:1. Remember the story of the bronze serpent in Numbers 21:6-9Then the Lord sent poisonous serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned by speaking against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord to take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a poisonous serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten shall look at it and live.” So Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole; and whenever a serpent bit someone, that person would look at the serpent of bronze and live.The bronze serpent itself had no power to heal. But God attached a promise to the act (ritual) of looking at the bronze serpent. And when they acted as instructed God honoured his promise.2. Then take James 5:14-15)Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.Again there was a ritual. Did the anointing with oil heal them? No, the oil had no power to heal in itself. But there were promises attached to the ritual (and to the accompanying prayers of course). When the ritual was carried out we are told that God would deliver on his promise.3. See similarly Mk 16:16-18“Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation. The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”4. Now look at the ritual of laying on of hands by the apostles in Acts 8:14-19Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. The two went down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit (for as yet the Spirit had not come upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus). Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me also this power so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”Did the apostles have power over the Holy Spirit to command him to come at their bidding? Did the act of laying on of hands have any power in itself? No, it was God acting on the promise attached to the act that brought down the Holy Spirit.winsome
     
  12. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    That's a nice human rationalization for your religious opinions, but it still contradicts what God's Word actually says.SealedEternal
     
  13. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    (SealedEternal;51183)
    That's a nice human rationalization for your religious opinions, but it still contradicts what God's Word actually says.
    How? Where?
     
  14. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    How? Where?
    You're trying to use the Bible to rationalize your preconceived Theology, rather than letting God's Word do the teaching. If I were to remove your long explanations from the proof texts that you offered, no objective person on earth would read them and come to the conclusion that man is saved by keeping sacraments, but when we read through your long dissertation, this is what you expect us to believe God is teaching. This is how false doctrines are always promoted, and claimed to be "biblical". Proper Bible Hermeneutics is to let the text do the teaching, rather than being used to promote our own religious agendas.SealedEternal
     
  15. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    (SealedEternal;51189)
    You're trying to use the Bible to rationalize your preconceived Theology, rather than letting God's Word do the teaching. If I were to remove your long explanations from the proof texts that you offered, no objective person on earth would read them and come to the conclusion that man is saved by keeping sacraments, but when we read through your long dissertation, this is what you expect us to believe God is teaching. This is how false doctrines are always promoted, and claimed to be "biblical". Proper Bible Hermeneutics is to let the text do the teaching, rather than being used to promote our own religious agendas.SealedEternal
    So you can't explain how what I said contradicts God's word
     
  16. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    (winsome;51190)
    So you can't explain how what I said contradicts God's word
    The bigger issue is that you don't have any scripture to prove your case, but as far as contradictions here are a few:Romans 4:1-13 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus ChristMatthew 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Titus 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. It is the regeneration of our hearts by God's Spirit that is the "baptism" that saves, while the symbolic baptism of water serves no purpose other than to symbolize a greater truth. If you focus entirely on the symbol rather than what it is meant to symbolize, then you have missed the entire point, and have not experienced the baptism that really matters.SealedEternal
     
  17. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    (SealedEternal;51194)
    It is the regeneration of our hearts by God's Spirit that is the "baptism" that saves, while the symbolic baptism of water serves no purpose other than to symbolize a greater truth. If you focus entirely on the symbol rather than what it is meant to symbolize, then you have missed the entire point, and have not experienced the baptism that really matters.SealedEternal
    Where have I focussed entirely on the symbol rather than what it is meant to symbolise?Here?“Baptism – water baptism – is what incorporates us into the New Covenant. It is the equivalent of circumcision under the Abramic covenant. Through baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as children of God.”Or here?“Just as with the Exodus it was a mighty work of God, so with baptism it is God's work to cleanse us from sin, to bring us into the New Covenant, to adopt us as his children. But we have to do what he commanded us to do before that happens.”Or here?“…sacraments…are…. "an outward sign of inward grace".”Or here?“The water is symbolic. Yes of course it is. It symbolises what is actually happening.”Or here?“In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace.”Or here?We are baptised in water and receive the Holy Spirit, hence being born of water and SpiritOr here?We are born into a new life in Christ.
     
  18. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    (winsome;51200)
    Where have I focussed entirely on the symbol rather than what it is meant to symbolise?Here?“Baptism – water baptism – is what incorporates us into the New Covenant. It is the equivalent of circumcision under the Abramic covenant. Through baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as children of God.
    The problem is that this opinion of yours is not taught in scripture. Scripture says that immersion of God's Spirit into our hearts is what brings us into the New Covenant, and frees us from our enslavement to sin, and that the ritual of washing dirt from the flesh was to prepare the way for the true immersion and bring people to repentance, but the ritual itself has nothing to do with salvation except to teach the greater truth.Titus 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 8:13-17 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
    Or here?“Just as with the Exodus it was a mighty work of God, so with baptism it is God's work to cleanse us from sin, to bring us into the New Covenant, to adopt us as his children. But we have to do what he commanded us to do before that happens.”
    Yes, but you have the wrong "baptism". It is the baptism from Jesus with His Spirit that cleanses us from sin, while water baptism only symbolized this by washing dirt from the flesh. It is the inner sanctification that saves and not the outer cleansing.
    Or here?“…sacraments…are…. "an outward sign of inward grace".”
    Sacraments are an invention of man to save himslf by his own religous works, but nowhere are they taught in scripture or claimed to signify inward grace. Baptism was meant to teach us an important truth about inward cleansing, but it in itself doesn't signify that it has occured. That is only signified by our fruits.
    Or here?“The water is symbolic. Yes of course it is. It symbolises what is actually happening.”
    It symbolizes what needs to actually happen, but performing the symbol doesn't cause it to happen. The symbol can only teach the greater truth, but can't bring it about. One is cleansed internally when they trust in Christ and walk by His Spirit, and dunking themselves in water won't accomplish anything to make it happen.
    Or here?“In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace.
    You're mixing two different concepts and then confusing them into one. Rebirth takes place when God's Spirit cleanses our inner being, but water only washes the flesh to symbolize rebirth, but isn't involved in it.
    Or here?We are baptised in water and receive the Holy Spirit, hence being born of water and Spirit
    The water described by Jesus is in regard to the first birth which is of the flesh. The second birth of Spirit is the one that makes us children of God, and has nothing to do with water.
    Or here?We are born into a new life in Christ.
    We are, but through Spirit immersion, and not water immersion.SealedEternal
     
  19. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    (SealedEternal;51176)
    Being "sanctified" is a process that is done through our faith in Christ, who gives us His Spirit to cleanse our wicked hearts and write the Spirit of His Law upon them. You're both part right and part wrong. It is not a process of religious works to save ourselves, nor is it an immediate event by believing some basic facts. First one must believe the facts of Christ, who He is and what He has done, and then must trust in Him, and walk by His Spirit, so that He may do His work in us to clean house and make us a sanctified child of His, who bears good fruit and does His will.Sacramental salvation claims that we can cleanse ourselves by performing religious rituals, which is patently false. Only God's Spirit is able to perform this act, and it is done through our faith in Him, and not by religious ceremonies.Easy believism on the other hand, claims that all you need to do is "believe" and suddenly you are born again and have eternal security. That is also false. It is through our faith that Christ's Spirit brings us through the process of sanctification, but faith is simply the dynamic that sustains us in this process, but it is not an end upon itself. One is not saved, nor do they have eternal security, until God's Spirit has done His work in us. That's why scripture says that those who are born of God no longer practice sin. Millions of people have been told that they have eternal life because they "believed", said a "sinners prayer", responded to an "altar call", or some other such profession of faith, but in fact they have not been born of God because they stopped the process and declared it finnished before God's Spirit did His work of sanctification in them.Millions of others are told they are saved because they are baptized, take the Lord's supper, or perform some other religious rituals. They too are subverting the Spirits work of sanctifying and regenerating them, because they think they are taking care of it themselves.SealedEternal
    You said: "Easy believism on the other hand, claims that all you need to do is "believe" and suddenly you are born again and have eternal security. That is also false. It is through our faith that Christ's Spirit brings us through the process of sanctification, but faith is simply the dynamic that sustains us in this process, but it is not an end upon itself. One is not saved, nor do they have eternal security, until God's Spirit has done His work in us."What you have said is false. Jesus said all that is necessary is that you believe in Him. But the religious add to his words using terms like "Easy believism" in order to add something to it. There is no such thing as easy believism. Believing in what Jesus did on the cross instead of what a person can do for themselves is certainly not easy. Especially when those that call themselves Christians are always harping on works.Mark 9:23-50 Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes."24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!" NKJVMark 5:36-43 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, He said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Do not be afraid; only believe." NKJVJohn 3:18-36 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJVPerhaps those that make up words like "easy believism" are not aware of how hard it is to deny placing faith in your own works and placing it in the work of another. They just can't step out of the boat, in faith, and trust in God's work on the cross. They feel they must do something for themselves to save themselves. In other words they do not really have faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.When Jesus said to deny yourself and follow Him, He did not mean to deny yourself sins, He meant to deny your ability to save yourself and follow Him.Richard [​IMG]
     
  20. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    You said: "Easy believism on the other hand, claims that all you need to do is "believe" and suddenly you are born again and have eternal security. That is also false. It is through our faith that Christ's Spirit brings us through the process of sanctification, but faith is simply the dynamic that sustains us in this process, but it is not an end upon itself. One is not saved, nor do they have eternal security, until God's Spirit has done His work in us."What you have said is false. Jesus said all that is necessary is that you believe in Him. But the religious add to his words using terms like "Easy believism" in order to add something to it. There is no such thing as easy believism. Believing in what Jesus did on the cross instead of what a person can do for themselves is certainly not easy. Especially when those that call themselves Christians are always harping on works.Mark 9:23-50 Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes."24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!" NKJVMark 5:36-43 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, He said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Do not be afraid; only believe." NKJVJohn 3:18-36 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJVPerhaps those that make up words like "easy believism" are not aware of how hard it is to deny placing faith in your own works and placing it in the work of another. They just can't step out of the boat, in faith, and trust in God's work on the cross. They feel they must do something for themselves to save themselves. In other words they do not really have faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.When Jesus said to deny yourself and follow Him, He did not mean to deny yourself sins, He meant to deny your ability to save yourself and follow Him.Richard [​IMG]
    None of those verses contradict what I said, nor do they teach what you're claiming. Nowhere does it say that believing some facts saves anyone, but in fact says that through faith God's Spirit does His work in us, to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Belief is a key dynamic of salvation, but it isn't an end upon itself. It is through our faith that God's Spirit regenerates and sanctifies us, but we are not saved until He has done this which is a process.I never said that we are saved by our works either, but scripture says that we are saved by His work in us, and that we will know by our fruits that we are His children or children of the devil. When we practice righteousness and keep His commandments, scripture says we are in Him, while when we practice lawlessness we know that we are not:1 John 5:2-3 By this WE KNOW that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.1 John 5:18 We know that NO ONE who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.1 John 3:9 NO ONE who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.1 John 2:3-6 By this WE KNOW that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.Matthew 7:16-23 "YOU WILL KNOW them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'1 John 3:7-10 Little children, MAKE SURE NO ONE DECEIVES YOU; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. BY THIS the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.Ephesians 5:5-8 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, NOR ADULTERERS, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.James 2:17-20 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; THE DEMONS ALSO BELIEVE, AND SHUDDER. BUT ARE YOU WILLING TO RECOGNIZE, YOU FOOLISH FELLOW, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS USELESS? Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.SealedEternal
     
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