SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[Fred J]

The Old Testament covers a long time.....Can't find Yeshua?.....Was He hiding?

What's wrong with you, don't you read carefully before you speak?

Did mentioned to you, Yeshua the The Word then, was not revealed by GOD the FATHER, but only until these last days.

 

[Grailhunter]

What's wrong with you, don't you read carefully before you speak?

Did mentioned to you, Yeshua the The Word then, was not revealed by GOD the FATHER, but only until these last days.

I read that but it sounds more like an excuse.
Not a biblical explanation.
You say Christ preexisted….produce the evidence.

And just for fun explain how a God would transform to male seed and fertilize Miriam egg and she conceived. And was it Yahweh that transformed to male seed or the preexisting Yeshua? If it is one God you really cannot contribute it to either one of them or both. Was it a threesome? Magic? Witchcraft? Abracadabra!

God so loved the world that He transformed to male seed and cast Himself into Miriam’s womb and she conceived.

 

[Fred J]

I read that but it sounds more like an excuse.
Not a biblical explanation.
You say Christ preexisted….produce the evidence.

And just for fun explain how a God would transform to male seed and fertilize Miriam egg and she conceived. And was it Yahweh that transformed to male seed or the preexisting Yeshua? If it is one God you really cannot contribute it to either one of them or both. Was it a threesome? Magic? Witchcraft? Abracadabra!

God so loved the world that He transformed to male seed and cast Himself into Miriam’s womb and she conceived.

Apparently, verily, verily, you need to be born again, before you want to fellowship regarding the Holy Bible with born again.

We will be going back and forth and in vain get no where.

Shalom

 

[Grailhunter]

Apparently, verily, verily, you need to be born again, before you want to fellowship regarding the Holy Bible with born again.

We will be going back and forth and in vain get no where.

Shalom

This is the part that I enjoy dealing with people that have the one God false belief running around in their heads. The more they try to explain it the more silly it gets. Bring out the beads and rattlers and dance the Hocus Pocus.

The sad thing is, because the scriptures have to pass through the one God filter…..they cannot understand them.

 

[Fred J]

I read that but it sounds more like an excuse.
Not a biblical explanation.
You say Christ preexisted….produce the evidence.

And just for fun explain how a God would transform to male seed and fertilize Miriam egg and she conceived. And was it Yahweh that transformed to male seed or the preexisting Yeshua? If it is one God you really cannot contribute it to either one of them or both. Was it a threesome? Magic? Witchcraft? Abracadabra!

God so loved the world that He transformed to male seed and cast Himself into Miriam’s womb and she conceived.

Are you limiting the HOLY ONE of Israel??

Matthew 4:
7. Jesus said unto him, 'It is written again, 'Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy GOD'."

Psalm 78:
41. Yea, they turned back and tempted GOD, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 55:
8. For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord.
9. For as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
10. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from Heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and make it bring forthe and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11. So shall My Word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto Isent it.

Matthew 19:
26. But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, "With men this is impossible; but with GOD all things are possible."

2 Peter 3:
3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

 

[Grailhunter]

Are you limiting the HOLY ONE of Israel??

Matthew 4:
7. Jesus said unto him, 'It is written again, 'Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy GOD'."

Psalm 78:
41. Yea, they turned back and tempted GOD, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 55:
8. For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord.
9. For as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
10. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from Heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and make it bring forthe and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11. So shall My Word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto Isent it.

Matthew 19:
26. But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, "With men this is impossible; but with GOD all things are possible."

2 Peter 3:
3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Would not think of limiting God the Father, Almighty or the God His Son or the God the Holy Spirit.

But none of them are Gods of non-sense.

 

[Fred J]

This is the part that I enjoy dealing with people that have the one God false belief running around in their heads. The more they try to explain it the more silly it gets. Bring out the beads and rattlers and dance the Hocus Pocus.

The sad thing is, because the scriptures have to pass through the one God filter…..they cannot understand them.

The silly it gets to you, because, "The god of this world have blinded the minds of unbelievers."

So, what is your business busybodying in a Bible Discussion Forum meant for Holy Bible believing and fellowshiping born agains??

For it is written, "Give not that which is Holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

 

[Grailhunter]

The silly it gets to you, because, "The god of this world have blinded the minds of unbelievers."

So, what is your business busybodying in a Bible Discussion Forum meant for Holy Bible believing and fellowshiping born agains??

For it is written, "Give not that which is Holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Again the one God false belief skews the meaning of so many scriptures. You can read them but you can not understand them.

LOL
“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,” Isaiah 46:9
You read this scripture but when it goes through the one God filter it means three to you.
So sad, you can hold the scriptures in your hands and you can read them but you cannot understand them. So close but yet so far.

 

[Fred J]

Again the one God false belief skews the meaning of so many scriptures. You can read them but you can not understand them.

LOL
“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,” Isaiah 46:9
You read this scripture but when it goes through the one God filter it means three to you.
So sad, you can hold the scriptures in your hands and you can read them but you cannot understand them. So close but yet so far.

Talk about yourself, i understand it's confusing, but for us it is 'sound doctrine.

 

[Grailhunter]

Talk about yourself, i understand it's confusing, but for us it is 'sound doctrine.

LOL

 

[Fred J]

LOL

Psalms 2:
4. HE that sitteth in Heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

 

[Spyder]

Psalms 2:
4. HE that sitteth in Heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

But He that sitteth in Heavens told us that He alone is God.

 

[Grailhunter]

But He that sitteth in Heavens told us that He alone is God.

and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” Matthew 3:17 Father and Son from He who is in Heaven. Count them up!

 

[Taken]

SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

The GRACE of God, is Gods OFFERING of Blessings and Gifts FROM God.

Gods Express GIFT of “SALVATION”, requires a WILLING SINGLE “WORKS” of an individual human.

That ^ SINGLE “WORKS” is reveal “IN” scripture.

John 6:
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Here ^ the understanding is REVEALING…
God DOES “A” particular “WORKS”…
And…
An individual human man willing TO DO the SAME “single” Works God Himself DOES…
IS…
An individual human man “Freely Choosing”
TO DO the “WORKS” of God, ie the SAME WORKS, God does.

John 6:
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

WHAT does that “IN FULLNESS OF TRUTH MEAN” ?

* Consider WHO Jesus is…Son of God.
* Consider Jesus expressly revealing His own belief, exalting, upholding God…is His Father, is Spirit, is Creator of all things.
* Consider WHO God is…Father to Jesus.
* Consider God IS SPIRIT, and SO TOO, are Gods OFFSPRING(S).
* Consider HOW God…OFFERS and ACCEPTS a human man, TO BE Gods OWN Legally “adopted” child.

God OFFERS a “Legally adopted” human to become MADE Gods OWN son….
* WHEN the individual human…”OF the individuals own FREEWILL accord, himself, VIA his OWN natural spirit…
BELIEVES IN the Almighty Heavenly SPIRIT God AND the ONE…(JESUS) WHOM God SENT down from Heaven TO EARTH.

AND…”IF and WHEN”…such a freely willing individual human…DOES SO…elect, choose, TO DO, the Specific Works God “requires” … * SO shall the Lord God Almighty…
DO “HIS” OWN (Spiritual) Works IN that man… which RESULTS IN that individual man:
* SOUL being MADE (restored)…ie SAVED.
* SPIRIT being MADE (quickened)…ie BORN AGAIN of Gods SEED.
* Man NEW SPIRIT being FILLED (indwelt)…ie WITH Gods “SPIRIT OF TRUTH”

ONE “WORKS” of an Individual human man…
TO receive Gods “EXPRESS” Gift of Salvation.
MULTIPLE “WORKS” of God IN that man.

MULTIPLE “works” of man… possible…
Caring for his possessions.
Caring for other people.
Helping hands aid to another.
Meal offerings to others…etc.
ANY thing… one freely DOES…

AND the “CAVEAT”…. Called REWARDS.
A man CAN care, do, help…AND receive,
A compensation, a gift, a reward, an award…
And done deal…that man HAS “his reward” for his offering, help, deed, etc.

HOWEVER….”IF”…(the CAVEAT)…
“IF” the man DOES ONE thing..
“Accept NOTHING from the one being “aided”….AND…Giving God the Glory BY the one “giving” the AID….

THEN…is such a “words” to be “rewarded”, BY God….and WHEN….that reward is “received”….IS when the Lord Returns.

In the meantime - ANY such “AIDS” a man does FOR the Glory of the Lord God….
Each “reward” is called …’TREASURES stored up in Heaven”….

SALVATION…by WORKS ?
According to the understanding of WHICH SPECIFIC WORKS….being BELIEF…
Then …YES.

SALVATION…by WORKS?
According to the understanding of AIDING OTHERS….NO.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Fred J]

But He that sitteth in Heavens told us that He alone is God.

Indeed HE alone is GOD MOST HIGH, AL-MIGHTY and ALL-POWERFUL, according to the Old Testament.

Hebrews 1:
1. GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets.
2. Hath in these last days spoke unto us by HIS Son, whom HE hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also HE made the worlds,

In the New Testament GOD decided to reveal HIS Son, who is Lord God over all creation, and HIS invisible image in person.

 

[Spyder]

Indeed HE alone is GOD MOST HIGH, AL-MIGHTY and ALL-POWERFUL, according to the Old Testament.

Hebrews 1:
1. GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets.
2. Hath in these last days spoke unto us by HIS Son, whom HE hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also HE made the worlds,

In the New Testament GOD decided to reveal HIS Son, who is Lord God over all creation, and HIS invisible image in person.

Man has been done a disservice by translators in these verses. Yahweh, who alone is God, spoke in times past by prophets. Now, verse two says he spoke at the time of this writing by His Son. As for the rest of verse one, His Son is an heir of all things - indicating that His Son did not already own those things. The second problem is the term "the worlds." The original manuscript says "the ages." Based on the term "ages" in scripture, it has many meaning based on context.

If we continue in this passage, we can see that Yeshua's beginning was not an eternal one. They show that it was not a matter of revealing an already existing Son. Jesus was "begotten."

Heb 1:3–5 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?

 

[Wrangler]

SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

No, it's a true dichotomy. The options and consequences are:

1. Salvation by grace requires no works on our part.
2. Salvation by works requires no humility on our part.

The follow up question is if salvation is by grace, then why do works? The reason is because it is our greatest honor to be of service to the king in his divine kingdom. We do works for love and honor and because, as his children, it is the right thing to do in spending our time in glorifying him.

And all God's people said Amen.

 

[Fred J]

- indicating that His Son did not already own those things.

You are wrong.

Colossians 1:
16. For by Him (Son) were all things created, that are in Heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:
17. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

John 1:
3. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Hebrews 1:
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by HIS Son, whom HE hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also HE made the worlds/ages;

Get to the context of the grace and truth even about the Son, as the scripture also read;

1 Corinthians 8:
2. And if a man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

The scripture simply reads, whom HE (GOD) hath (have, and not has) appointed heir of all things, ........

The second problem is the term "the worlds." The original manuscript says "the ages." Based on the term "ages" in scripture, it has many meaning based on context.

'Ages' - the length of time that a person have lived or a thing has existed.

If we continue in this passage, we can see that Yeshua's beginning was not an eternal one.

Wrong.

Hebrews 1:
8; But unto the Son HE (GOD) saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy Kingdom."
11. They shall perish; but Thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

They show that it was not a matter of revealing an already existing Son. Jesus was "begotten."

It's a matter of revealing and giving the Son to the world in these last days, but to Israel first. (John 3:16)

 

[Spyder]

Brother Fred, while I understand how the scriptures are mistranslated to support the trinity, some proper exegesis can solve those issues.

Colossians 1: 16-17 For by Him (Son) were all things created, that are in Heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

These verses cannot be affirming the Trinity because they open with Christ being “the image [eikon] of the invisible God.” If Christ were “God,” then the verse would simply say so, rather than that he was the “image” of God. The Father is plainly called “God” in dozens of places, and this would have been a good place to say that Jesus was God. Instead, we are told that Christ is the image of God. If one thing is the “image” of another thing, then the “image” and the “original” are not the same thing.

As for Jesus creating all things, then the book of Genesis is in error, because it specifically says that Yahweh created all things. Since Genesis is not in error, then the term "all things" refers to those things that Jesus created to establish His church. It is a general term that, taken wrongly, creates other errors.

John 1: 3. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

This verse has a translator error also. The actual manuscript says that God's logos (His speaking) created all things. (Yahweh "spoke" things into existence. Translators capitalize logos (only in the book of John) to make it seem like the scripture is speaking of a person. Jesus became the "word of Yahweh" (see verse 14), and Jesus even said that His task was to present God's words on earth.

Hebrews 1: 2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by HIS Son, whom HE hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also HE made the worlds/ages;

Yes, the correct word is "ages" and NOT worlds. Verses 1 and 2 show that God spoke through Jesus “in these last days,” whereas He had spoken “in the past” in various ways. Jesus was in the past only as a prophecy.

1 Corinthians 8: 2. And if a man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

Is this passage is a reminder for you?

Hebrews 1:8; But unto the Son HE (GOD) saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy Kingdom."
11. They shall perish; but Thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the king (Jesus) being referred to is not God, because the entire passage is trying to argue that Jesus is greater than the angels. If Jesus was God, it would have been much simpler for the author to say that Jesus is God- which it does not. Instead, the author states Jesus’ superiority in other ways: He sits at the right hand of His Father (Heb. 1:13), God calls him his Son (Heb. 1:5), and that the angels are to worship him (Heb. 1:6). None of that makes sense is Jesus IS God.

 

[Wrangler]

John 1: 3. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Some translations properly render houtos in v2 as “that” and properly refer to “that” in v3 with the word “it.”

1. You gave me your word.
2. As a man of honor, everyone knows how important that is.
3. You broke it.

Personification is uncalled for.