SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[Titus]

Dichotomy: a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.

False dichotomy in salvation is the belief that it must be by Grace or it must be by works.
This is a false dichotomy because the two do not contradict!!
They both harmonize perfectly with one another.

The faith only to obtain salvation gospel advocates teach a false gospel of saving faith apart from works.
Likewise faith onlyist teach if works are involved then salvation cannot be by Grace for grace is a free gift.
This is a logical fallacy!

Grace is a free gift but grace is not unconditionally given.
Gods grace is conditional, therefore Gods grace comes with terms.

Must meet Gods terms to receive His gift of unmerited grace,
Titus 2:11-12,
- for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

Grace teaches us we must do good works. Paul taught Titus that grace and works go together. They harmonize!
You will hear the faith onlyist use Ephesians 2:8-9 as a "proof text" we are saved without any involvement of works.

First, if salvation is apart from ALL works then we are saved without the work Christ did on the cross,
John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on earth I have finished the  work which You have given Me

Second Paul does teach in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are not saved by works.
But what must be understood is the gospel teaches there are different kinds of works.
To lump ALL works into meritorious works like for instance the commandment to be baptized, turns Jesus' gospel
in Mark 16:15-16 into a gospel that teaches we earn our salvation through a work of baptism.

The kind of works Paul condemns in Ephesians 2:8-9 is works of merit.
Paul also teaches that saving faith is a faith that works,
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith  working through love
1Corinthians 7:19,
- circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God is what matters

God requires a faith with action/obedience to His commandments in Jesus' gospel.
Only faith that works to meet Gods conditions can receive His grace!!!

When one believes in His gospel 1Corinthians 15:1-4
And obeys the commandments in His gospel,
Can one qualify to receive His unmerited favor.
Hebrews 5:8-9,
- and having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Jesus' gospel is by grace through faith when faith is rightly defined.
It is a working/obedient faith that justifies the alien sinner,
James 2:24,
- you see then that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone

This faith is the only faith that is acceptable unto God,
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation whoever fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him

God made it very clear that anyone who teaches no obedience/works to God to be saved is not a servant of of God but of the devil, Gen. 3:3-4.
1John 2:2-5,
- and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but also for the whole world, now by this we know we know Him  if we keep His commandments, he who says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

Last we get INTO Christ by baptism,
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

No spiritual blessings outside of Christ,
Ephesians 1:3,
- blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Savior who has blessed us with EVERY spiritual blessing  in the heavenly places IN Christ

If not why not?

 

[FaithWillDo]

Grace is a free gift but grace is not unconditionally given.
Gods grace is conditional, therefore Gods grace comes with terms.

Dear Titus,
You said:
Grace is a free gift but grace is not unconditionally given.
Gods grace is conditional, therefore Gods grace comes with terms.

If grace is not unconditionally given, it is not free. You are mixing "works" with faith. This is the "another gospel" that Satan teaches.

Christ is the Savior and He does 100% of the works to save a person. He accomplished His physical work when He went to the cross. He accomplishes His spiritual work when He gives the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit to a person. He does this spiritual work freely and at a time of His choosing.

Here is mankind's spiritual state we all have from birth:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

All mankind will remain in this lost spiritual condition until they die UNLESS Christ comes to them (without their asking and without their permission) and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain, they will be given a measure of faith. Then, when they are presented with the Gospel, they will make a confession of faith.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

After Christ gives the Early Rain of the Spirit to a person, they will they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. In contrast, with the indwelling Spirit, they can no longer reject Christ. This is how Christ prepares a person's heart and how He gives them the answer of their tongue. The person has no work of their own of which they can boast.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If the new believer is one of the Elect, Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (same as the Baptism of the Spirit). With this spiritual baptism, the believer will be converted and will then have "eyes that can see". It is only at this time that the person is eternally saved.

The salvation of a person happens solely because it is God's "will" for it to happen. When the time for their salvation arrives, Christ will go to the person and do all that is necessary for their salvation. After Christ does His work, they will accept Him as "Lord" and will walk by the Spirit and produce "good works".

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

A person's "works" play no part in their salvation. Under the Old Covenant, man was required to "work" for salvation. But since man's attempt to be perfect always ended in failure, Christ came with the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. Under the New Covenant, Christ does 100% of the work of saving a person.

In this present age, Christ is only saving the people who have been chosen from the foundation of the world:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

These blessed people will all be saved before they physically die because it is God's "will" for it to happen. They are called the First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind. Their salvation happens solely because of the work of Christ that He does "within" them. However, Christ loves all mankind and will not leave any of His crop to die in the field. In the final age, Christ will do His spiritual work within the rest of mankind. He will not rest until the last person is saved.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God the Father sent Christ to save the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In "due time", Christ will accomplish all that the Father gave Him to do. Only then will it be testified to be true that Jesus is truly the Savior of the world.

Mankind's salvation happens solely because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Mankind's "will" of rejecting Christ is "nothing" for Christ to overcome:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

In the end, all things will be restored just as the prophets foretold:

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Paul restated this prophecy below:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What a great and loving God we all have (to be testified in due time)!

Joe

 

[Titus]

Dear Titus,
You said:
Grace is a free gift but grace is not unconditionally given.
Gods grace is conditional, therefore Gods grace comes with terms.

If grace is not unconditionally given, it is not free. You are mixing "works" with faith. This is the "another gospel" that Satan teaches.

Christ is the Savior and He does 100% of the works to save a person. He accomplished His physical work when He went to the cross. He accomplishes His spiritual work when He gives the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit to a person. He does this spiritual work freely and at a time of His choosing.

Here is mankind's spiritual state we all have from birth:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

All mankind will remain in this lost spiritual condition until they die UNLESS Christ comes to them (without their asking and without their permission) and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain, they will be given a measure of faith. Then, when they are presented with the Gospel, they will make a confession of faith.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

After Christ gives the Early Rain of the Spirit to a person, they will they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. In contrast, with the indwelling Spirit, they can no longer reject Christ. This is how Christ prepares a person's heart and how He gives them the answer of their tongue. The person has no work of their own of which they can boast.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If the new believer is one of the Elect, Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (same as the Baptism of the Spirit). With this spiritual baptism, the believer will be converted and will then have "eyes that can see". It is only at this time that the person is eternally saved.

The salvation of a person happens solely because it is God's "will" for it to happen. When the time for their salvation arrives, Christ will go to the person and do all that is necessary for their salvation. After Christ does His work, they will accept Him as "Lord" and will walk by the Spirit and produce "good works".

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

A person's "works" play no part in their salvation. Under the Old Covenant, man was required to "work" for salvation. But since man's attempt to be perfect always ended in failure, Christ came with the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. Under the New Covenant, Christ does 100% of the work of saving a person.

In this present age, Christ is only saving the people who have been chosen from the foundation of the world:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

These blessed people will all be saved before they physically die because it is God's "will" for it to happen. They are called the First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind. Their salvation happens solely because of the work of Christ that He does "within" them. However, Christ loves all mankind and will not leave any of His crop to die in the field. In the final age, Christ will do His spiritual work within the rest of mankind. He will not rest until the last person is saved.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God the Father sent Christ to save the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In "due time", Christ will accomplish all that the Father gave Him to do. Only then will it be testified to be true that Jesus is truly the Savior of the world.

Mankind's salvation happens solely because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Mankind's "will" of rejecting Christ is "nothing" for Christ to overcome:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

In the end, all things will be restored just as the prophets foretold:

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Paul restated this prophecy below:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What a great and loving God we all have (to be testified in due time)!

Joe

If grace is not unconditionally given, it is not free

Grace is not given unconditionally!!!
Question for FaithWillDo :
- Does the unbeliever recieve Gods grace?
Or is Gods free gift given only to those who have Faith?

The gift of Gods grace is a free gift but there are still conditions that must be met
The very first condition is Faith in Jesus and His gospel.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dichotomy: a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.

False dichotomy in salvation is the belief that it must be by Grace or it must be by works.
This is a false dichotomy because the two do not contradict!!
They both harmonize perfectly with one another.

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

The two do not mix. its like mixing water and oil..

 

[Titus]

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

The two do not mix. its like mixing water and oil..

As you have already been taught.
Paul is addressing Jews who have converted to christianity in Romans.
He is telling them they cannot be made righteous by keeping the works that are in the old law of Moses.

You are still ignorant that there are different kinds of works being discussed in the new testament.
You try to lump them all together.

Fact: New testament gospel teaches you must work the work of faith.
John 6:28-29
Faith is a commandment of God that you must obey, 1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He has given us commandment

You cannot be saved without working/obeying Gods commandments in His new testament gospel.
Old testament works are condemned, Romans 4:1-5 ; Galatians 5:4,
- Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law(old law of Moses) ye have fallen from grace

Must work the work of faith to be saved!!

Faith without works is dead, James 2:19.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

As you have already been taught.
Paul is addressing Jews who have converted to christianity in Romans.
He is telling them they cannot be made righteous by keeping the works that are in the old law of Moses.

No that is not true. Paul mentions Abraham, there was no law when abraham believed God and it was credited to him as rightiousness

You are still ignorant that there are different kinds of works being discussed in the new testament.
You try to lump them all together.

A work is something done to earn a wage or reward.

It does not matter what that particular work is. That is the defenition.

Another definition Paul gave twice is that a person can boast..

Fact: New testament gospel teaches you must work the work of faith.
John 6:28-29
Faith is a commandment of God that you must obey, 1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He has given us commandment

You cannot be saved without working/obeying Gods commandments in His new testament gospel.
Old testament works are condemned, Romans 4:1-5 ; Galatians 5:4,
- Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law(old law of Moses) ye have fallen from grace

Must work the work of faith to be saved!!

Faith without works is dead, James 2:19.

Then your under law not under grace.

Good luck!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Grace is not given unconditionally!!!
Question for FaithWillDo :
- Does the unbeliever recieve Gods grace?
Or is Gods free gift given only to those who have Faith?

The gift of Gods grace is a free gift but there are still conditions that must be met
The very first condition is Faith in Jesus and His gospel.

Dear Titus,
You asked: Does the unbeliever receive God's grace?

Yes, we are all unbelievers when Christ comes to us to give us the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Spirit, we are given a measure of faith and will then accept Jesus as Lord. Our confession of faith can happen no other way because of what these verses below state:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Even our faith comes from God:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

2Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Everything that an unbeliever needs to be saved comes from God. Until Christ does His spiritual work within a person, they will not understand or seek after Christ. God's Word says it is not possible. Why do you not believe this truth?

Paul's conversion experience is the "pattern" (type) whereby the Elect are saved:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

When Paul was travelling the Damascus Road, Christ came to Paul and gave Paul the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain, Paul accepted Jesus as Lord and asked Christ what to do:

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly, there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Just before Christ came to Paul, Paul hated Christ and was on his way to persecute Christians in Damascus. But all that changed in an instance of time when Paul received the Early Rain. Paul did not ask for the Spirit nor did Christ ask Paul if he wanted it. Christ gave the Spirit to Paul because of His grace and because it was Paul chosen time to receive it. Paul did nothing to earn God's grace. This is true of all unbelievers when they, too, receive God's grace.

Where is your faith to believe things that you cannot see with your human senses? Do you really think that your faith originated from within yourself - that it came from your supposed free will ability to choose?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If you have any faith in Christ, it came from Christ and He gave it to you because of His grace. He did all the work. You have nothing to boast about concerning your salvation.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

The apostate church has taught you lies about how and when a person is saved. But you have accepted because it seems right to your carnal nature.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, the old is better.

After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain carnal, spiritually blind and unconverted. These unconverted believers inhabit the apostate churches in the world - all 2,000 different denominations/sects of Christianity who claim to be followers of Christ but are not. These unconverted believers still prefer the Old Wine (Old Covenant, man's works) over the New Wine (New Covenant, Christ's works) because it is more pleasing to their carnal nature. For this reason, Christ's must come a second time to His unconverted Elect if they are going to be saved before they die. When Christ comes, He will give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days and is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost. With the Latter Rain, an Elect believer's carnality will be destroyed and they will then prefer the New Wine over the Old Wine. This is when a person will truly begin to walk by faith and be saved.

James said this:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

More on the Early and Latter Rain:

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the former rain (Early Rain) in just measure, and he causes to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the latter rain, in the first month.

Here is what Paul told the Corinthian church:

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (Early Rain): 7 So that you come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The second coming of Christ is when Christ comes and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon an Elect believer who is waiting to receive their salvation. With the Latter Rain, the Elect believer's spiritual blindness will be healed and Christ will spiritually appear to them. After this event, they will no longer have a carnal understanding of Him (God's Word) and the New Wine will suddenly taste better than the Old Wine.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Joe

 

[Titus]

Dear Titus,
You asked: Does the unbeliever receive God's grace?

Yes, we are all unbelievers when Christ comes to us to give us the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Spirit, we are given a measure of faith and will then accept Jesus as Lord. Our confession of faith can happen no other way because of what these verses below state

Not every person becomes a believer!!!


Now, answer my question!!!
Does an unbeliever recieve Gods grace?

Revelation 21:8,
- but the fearful and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death

No unbeliever will recieve Gods free gift.
John rightly penned all those listed will burn in hell.

Therefore, Gods free gift is conditioned upon faith which is a work, John 6:28-29

 

[Titus]

Paul mentions Abraham, there was no law when abraham believed God and it was credited to him as rightiousness

Romans 4 Paul uses Abraham as the example of someone who was saved without the law of Moses.
Exactly why Paul used Abraham, to show those Jewish converts to Christ that the law of Moses cannot save.
Romans 8:2
- For the law of the Spirit(Jesus' new testament) in Christ Jesus hath made us free from the law of sin and death (Old law of Moses)

Old Mosaical law never saved anybody!!
That's why Paul uses Abraham to prove to the Jews that keeping the works of the law of Moses cannot save them.

E.G. can you be saved if you disobey Gods commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24?

Obeying Gods commandments are works of righteousness,
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation he that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted by God
Psalm 119: 172,
- My tongue shall speak of Your word for all Your commandments are righteousness

btw, you said no law when Abraham believed God.
Wrong!!! Abraham was under the Patriarchal law.

 

[Titus]

. Until Christ does His spiritual work within a person, they will not understand or seek after Christ

Not everyone believes!!! This proves Gods grace is conditional, based upon those who believe in Him.
Those who never believe never meet Gods conditions for His free gift of grace.

Also, if Christ does not do His spiritual work within a person.
Who then is at fault for not believing? The man who God did not do the personal work on that person
Or God for you claim no one can believe until God gives them the ability directly.

 

[Titus]

Paul's conversion experience is the "pattern" (type) whereby the Elect are saved

Agreed!!! Not saved on the road to Damascus friend,
Paul told when his sins were washed away,
Acts 22:16,
- and now why tarriest thou, Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord

Paul said himself he was saved three days later from the time Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus. Ananias baptized Paul for the remission of his sins three days later after Paul believed in Jesus,
Acts 9:17,18
- and Ananias went His way and entered the house and putting His hands on him said, Brother Saul the Lord even Jesus that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest hath sent me that thou mightest receive thy sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit

And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales and he received sight forthwith and AROSE and was Baptized

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 4 Paul uses Abraham as the example of someone who was saved without the law of Moses.
Exactly why Paul used Abraham, to show those Jewish converts to Christ that the law of Moses cannot save.
Romans 8:2
- For the law of the Spirit(Jesus' new testament) in Christ Jesus hath made us free from the law of sin and death (Old law of Moses)

Old Mosaical law never saved anybody!!
That's why Paul uses Abraham to prove to the Jews that keeping the works of the law of Moses cannot save them.

E.G. can you be saved if you disobey Gods commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24?

Obeying Gods commandments are works of righteousness,
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation he that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted by God
Psalm 119: 172,
- My tongue shall speak of Your word for all Your commandments are righteousness

btw, you said no law when Abraham believed God.
Wrong!!! Abraham was under the Patriarchal law.

Have you read romans 4?

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.


16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

PS. Romans was writtwen to the Gentile church of Rome.l not the jews.

he even rebukes the gentile believers in romans 11..

 

[FaithWillDo]

Not every person becomes a believer!!!
Now, answer my question!!!
Does an unbeliever recieve Gods grace?

Revelation 21:8,
- but the fearful and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death

No unbeliever will recieve Gods free gift.
John rightly penned all those listed will burn in hell.

Therefore, Gods free gift is conditioned upon faith which is a work, John 6:28-29

Dear Titus,
You said:
Not every person becomes a believer!!!

Scripture contradicts your belief:

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

In this age, Christ is only saving those who have been chosen to be one of the Elect/heir/First Fruit. They are few in number and are highly blessed. In the final age, Christ will save the rest of mankind who are being judged by the Law. But before they perish (the penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the same faith that He earlier gave to His Elect.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITH. These ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Christ's judgment is not like the judgment of mankind. He will not omit Justice, Mercy and Faith.

Justice is served by the spiritual destruction of who the person used to be (a child of the devil). Mercy and Faith are served by Christ giving them the free gift of salvation just as He gave to the Elect in this age. And like the Elect, those of the final age will likewise be "born again" as a new creation (a child of God).

In other words of scripture, the old vessel is destroyed by Christ's judgment and the new vessel is created because of Christ's grace:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

As I have been pointing out, salvation is a free gift from God. It abounds to all mankind.

You said:
Now, answer my question!!!
Does an unbeliever receive Gods grace?

I clearly answered that question already. The grace of God comes to all mankind (who are all unbelievers) which will result in all mankind being "born again' and becoming believers. The old vessel will be made into a new vessel. This is what it means to be "converted". The old will die so that the new can be born.

Do you understand what Christ is teaching in the verse below?

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

In case you don't know, the spirit word "sword" represents Christ. The verse is teaching that all who follow Christ, shall perish by Christ. Again, this is conversion.

You said:
Revelation 21:8,
- but the fearful and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death

No unbeliever will receive Gods free gift.
John rightly penned all those listed will burn in hell.

Therefore, Gods free gift is conditioned upon faith which is a work, John 6:28-29

Do you not understand that a person must be converted in order to be saved?

The children of the devil (those listed in Rev 21:8) must die but because of God's GRACE, those same souls will also be "born again" and become children of God. This is the free gift that all mankind will receive.

A child of the devil (all mankind who are unbelievers and always will be) will never have any part of the Kingdom of Heaven. We all must be born again as a child of God to enter heaven.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Also, mankind is saved by GRACE through FAITH. At a time of God's choosing, Christ will give each person who has ever lived the necessary faith to believe in Him. He gives us our faith because of His grace. If Christ was waiting on mankind to produce their own faith, no one would ever be saved:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Christ will provide all that is necessary for our salvation. He does this because of His grace. Mankind has no ability to contribute anything towards our own salvation. Do you believe this truth?

Joe

 

[Titus]

PS. Romans was writtwen to the Gentile church of Rome.l not the jews

Wrong, gentiles and former Jews made up the congregation in Rome.

Paul was teaching the gentile converts to Christ in the book of Romans not to allow the Jewish converts to Christ to bind the old law on them!!!

The Jewish Christians tried to bind the old law on gentile christians.
Paul is teaching about this in the book of Romans and Galatians.
The apostles were dealing with this in the book of Acts also,
Acts 15:24,
- forasmuch as we have heard that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words subverting your souls saying ye must be circumcised and keep the law to whom we gave no such commandment

Acts 2:10 Talks about the Jews who were christians in Rome!! Those Jews were members of the church in Rome,
- Phrygia and Pamphylia in Egypt and in parts of Libya about cyrene and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes

 

[Titus]

Dear Titus,
You said:
Not every person becomes a believer!!!

Scripture contradicts your belief:

Wrong!!!
You say everyone becomes a believer.
Not in this life only in the next.
God says those who die in unbelief will burn in hell,
Revelation 21:8 unbelievers will be in the lake of fire

 

[Titus]

And all flesh shall see the salvation of God

Wrong, you do not understand what this verse is saying,
Revelation 21:8 ALL those mentioned in this verse which includes unbelievers will burn in the lake of fire.

No reason for the word of God to warn us if we are all going to be saved.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Agreed!!! Not saved on the road to Damascus friend,
Paul told when his sins were washed away,
Acts 22:16,
- and now why tarriest thou, Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord

Paul said himself he was saved three days later from the time Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus. Ananias baptized Paul for the remission of his sins three days later after Paul believed in Jesus,
Acts 9:17,18
- and Ananias went His way and entered the house and putting His hands on him said, Brother Saul the Lord even Jesus that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest hath sent me that thou mightest receive thy sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit

And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales and he received sight forthwith and AROSE and was Baptized

Dear Titus,
That's right. When a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they remain carnal, spiritually blind and unconverted. The churches are full of them. Because these believers are spiritually blind, Satan easily deceives them into following "another gospel" which mixes works with faith (the same one that you teach). When a new believer does this, they will fall away and lose their salvation.

Mixing works with faith is the sin that leads to death. All believers who only have the Early Rain will commit this sin.

The verses below teach why all new believers will fall away shortly after entering the church:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Wrong!!!
You say everyone becomes a believer.
Not in this life only in the next.
God says those who die in unbelief will burn in hell,
Revelation 21:8 unbelievers will be in the lake of fire

Dear Titus,
As I have said, in this present age, Christ is ONLY saving the Elect. In the final age, Christ will resurrect the rest of mankind and judge them by the Law. The penalty of sin is death and is NOT burning in hell as you claim. Fire is a spirit word (John 6:63) which represents Christ's judgment. It is not literal fire. Then before those being judged perish, Christ will give them the free gift of salvation just as He did for the Elect. He will not omit justice, mercy and faith from His judgment of mankind. Why do you think He will?

Joe

 

[Titus]

another gospel" which mixes works with faith (the same one that you teach)

Can you not obey the commandment of God in the new testament and be saved?
Doing Gods commandments are works of righteousness., Acts 10:35= Psalm 119:172

1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment

Fact: God does not do the commandments of God. We must obey His commandments.
We must work the works of God, John 6:28-29, John 14:12,
- most assuredly I say to you he who believes in Me the works that I do he will do also and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father

 

[Titus]

It is not literal fire

Hahaha, never claimed the burning was physical fire as here on earth. That's your assumption Sir,
Mark 9:46,
- where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched

You are denying hell is where people burn in "fire".
You are contradicting the Bible