SALVATION OF ANIMALS

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VictoryinJesus

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Interesting topic @Cassandra…..everything in us wants to believe that our pets don’t just die and that’s it……after all, we have convinced ourselves that we don’t really die either…..yet that is not what Adam was told.

Gen 2:16…
”God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

In sentencing Adam for his sin, God said…
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)
There is no mention of an afterlife of any kind.…just a return to where Adam was before God created him.

Solomon wrote in Eccl 3:20-21..
I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.” (Eccl 3,18-20)

We humans have no advantage over the animals in death…..
The “spirit“ that we share is “the breath of life”, given to every creature at their creation. It is what makes them and us a “soul”. When we breathe our last breath, the soul dies. (Ezek 18:4)

So, what does the Bible really tell us about the death of animals?
Since humans were the only “souls” to be promised “everlasting life”, we are also the only creatures who can foresee our own death and contemplate what that means. (Hence the penalty for taking the forbidden fruit) Death is not in an animals mind, even when instinct makes them run away from a predator. Instinct in the animal kingdom does not include any great ability to plan or to imagine an outcome….which means that humans alone can contemplate death as a foreseeable reality. Animals succumb or death as a natural part of ”the circle of life”. (Credit to the Lion King)

God did not created animals to live eternally…..they have a finite existence and a life expectancy that they cannot know. Some animals who herd in family groups can appear to mourn the loss of a family member, but it is not the same grief that humans experience, knowing in advance that they will die or in watching someone they love succumb to a terminal illness.
Death in a troop is acknowledged, but mourning is brief as opposed to humans who can sometimes grieve for the rest of their Ives. Death to us is an “enemy” according to Scripture. To animals it is a certainty that they cannot acknowledge. They may fret for a lost companion, but they just miss them as a daily part of their life that has now changed.

The Genesis account tells us that all earthly creatures were at first vegetarians (Gen 1:29-30)…..so, no creature killed another for food. The only meat eaters were carrion creatures designed by God to clean up other creatures who died. Everything eventually breaks down and returns to the earth, which is designed to regenerate life, perpetually.

So our beloved pets die a natural death that is programmed into them……we humans were not programmed for death, so it seems foreign to us even though every human who has ever lived, eventually died. We were not supposed to because death was a penalty, not a foregone conclusion.

Animals will always share our lives and bring joy to us, because they were put on this earth to be our companions…..animals do not exist in heaven because they are flesh, like we are, designed for life on planet Earth.

We can love them while we have them, but their loss will not cause us grief in the new world to come…
Nothing will spoil life in the paradise restored by its loving Creator. (Isa 65:17-25)
Curious what your perspective is on the cover of many children’s books where the wolf and the lamb shall dwell together?
^Then also, yes you will give your perspective on the above but what has been the message behind the above cover? The point being from a child I was confused about “heaven” given a book with a cover with a wolf and a lamb sweetly cuddling.

Second, in being here on this board for several years I’ve spoke to major theologians who spoke of a time coming of owning houses and fields and barns with stalls and quoting verses of those stalls being filled with cattle. I’m not sure if they see this as plentiful supply of milking or food but the point is unless I misunderstood they see cattle as in heaven and given as possessions to their perspective of “will we still eat in heaven?” We can fault people concerning pets but I bet if we dug deep we would contradict ourselves in what we say…especially handing a child a book with a wolf and lamb laying together.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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I guess what catches my attention about this topic, is my friend just lost her dog and we’ve been talking about it a lot the past couple weeks. This is what I’ve learned about “Gus”

Gus was a boxer. My friend is 55 and has already suffered the loss of her only sister(only sibling), the loss of her mother and father …and the loss of her only daughter(her daughter played with my daughters growing up). Her sister and daughter had gone together with her to pick Gus out as a puppy. None of them knew what was ahead. My friends only sister seemed fine going in for a surgery, but when they went in they found cancer which the air from the opening during the surgery, caused to spread rapidly. In two weeks she was gone. Then her only daughter was suddenly taken as well. One death after another.

Gus was a part of it because he was a memory of something they all did together. The laughter and excitement of picking out a new puppy together. Gus passed away a month ago from old age. My friend and her husband are mourning not only “a dog” but because Gus brought them comfort. Now they say the house is so empty and silent and it really hits them the thoughts that their daughter didn’t marry, that they never experienced grandchildren. My friend was sitting outside the other night on the yard swing and her neighbor…who is a seventeen year old boy with Down’s syndrome come out speed walking straight towards their house. She knew he was looking for Gus. The boy was around five when Gus was brought there and the boy had played with Gus. Gus would meet this little boy with downs on the walking trail between the two houses and run with him. My friend laughs now remembering how Gus would steal the boys light up shoes and the boy would chase Gus to try to get them back…Gus would always bring the shoes home with the boy chasing along. This big ol’ clumsy boxer that loves to play. But this boy now seventeen was walking towards my friend shouting “where’s Gus!” Over and over “where’s Gus!!” He knew immediately there was a void and emptiness gone from their yard. He didn’t wonder if Gus was in the house where Gus stayed mostly but instead shouting “where’s Gus!” My friends reply to this boy was, “Gus went to Heaven.”

Some my say “wah wah nothing but a bleeding heart” but I definitely don’t need to be so right about theology where I would crush my friend by telling her … “you shouldn’t tell the neighbor boy that Gus went to heaven.” To me that defies even the message of Christ in caring for one another in times of burden and troubles. if I care so much about being right that I…take the opportunity when my friend is weak to school her in proper theology and crush her spirit, then maybe I am the one who has missed the whole message.(added note, when I say my friend is weak I mean a time of heart ache because she is far from weak, only hurting which I meant as the definition of “weak”) I can definitely see how Gus was a blessing to my friend and her husband and I’m not about to use this as a chance to push something that is going to devastate the receiver. What would be my motive except for using this knowledge to destroy another whether they have the same knowledge or not. What I read is instructions to not use the knowledge been given unto your against your brother or sisters.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Curious what your perspective is on the cover of many children’s books where the wolf and the lamb shall dwell together?
^Then also, yes you will give your perspective on the above but what has been the message behind the above cover? The point being from a child I was confused about “heaven” given a book with a cover with a wolf and a lamb sweetly cuddling.
This is from the prophesy in Isaiah where he is depicting, not heaven, but life on a restored earth, cleansed of all wickedness and restored to God’s original purpose.

He speaks about an abundance of food and freedom from fear as there are neither predatory animals or humans in “the new earth” to come. (Isaiah 65 :17-25)

God used the flood of Noah’s day to depict what that cleansing meant…..he washed the earth clean of all wickedness and started again with a fresh approach, although it was not time for his Messiah to give his life for us, so at best it was a stopgap measure as rebel angels were wreaking havoc on the nature of the human race, corrupting them horribly. He put a stop to that and put the demons under restraint.

If you read the scriptures, you see that “heaven” was never a destination for humans or animals to God’s ancient servants who believed in a physical “new heaven and a new earth“ to come…..not the destruction of the originals, but a new earthly society of tried and tested servants of God, getting to enjoy what he first purposed for mankind on this carefully and lovingly prepared earth, with all its myriads of creatures.
We know in our heart of hearts that we belong here with them, as God intended.
And what need is there to destroy his handiwork in the heavens? The original heavens and earth were without defect. So he will fix what is wrong and bring his rulership back to mankind by means of his kingdom….the one Jesus taught us to pray for……for it to come to man, not for man to go to it.
God’s will can then be “done on earth as it is in heaven”.
Second, in being here on this board for several years I’ve spoke to major theologians who spoke of a time coming of owning houses and fields and barns with stalls and quoting verses of those stalls being filled with cattle. I’m not sure if they see this as plentiful supply of milking or food but the point is unless I misunderstood they see cattle as in heaven and given as possessions to their perspective of “will we still eat in heaven?” We can fault people concerning pets but I bet if we dug deep we would contradict ourselves in what we say…especially handing a child a book with a wolf and lamb laying together.
Since theologians are a poor source of Bible knowledge, (being trained only in promoting man made religious doctrines) it is a good thing to go straight to God’s word for the answers to our many questions.

Owning homes we have built with our own hands, and eating food that we have grown to share with our neighbors, we will live everlasting life right here on God’s gift to us……spoiled by rebellion for now, but in the final outworking of God’s purpose, it will come full circle and return to what God originally planned as the wonderful life we will live in flesh that is no longer plagued by sin.…in a restored paradise.

In God’s new world, no animal will do harm to man or any other creature, (Isa 65:25) and as we see in the Genesis account, all were originally vegetarians. (Gen 1:30) They will no doubt go back to that state as we may well do too. Some of the most powerful creatures on earth are vegetarians….God provides for them all.

Those who are invited to go to heaven are of God’s choosing, and they will assist his son and our appointed King in bringing God’s rulership back where it rightfully belongs…..taking a thousand years to undo all the damage that satan and those he is able to influence, have done to the earth and each other. (Rev 11:18)

What a relief it will be to finally have a righteous government ruling over mankind that will do all that is promised….incorruptible “kings and priests” hand picked by God, acting in love and genuine care for God’s worshippers. (Rev 20:6)

I look forward to the future when that lamb and the wolf with the little girl will be a reality.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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This is from the prophesy in Isaiah where he is depicting, not heaven, but life on a restored earth, cleansed of all wickedness and restored to God’s original purpose.

He speaks about an abundance of food and freedom from fear as there are neither predatory animals or humans in “the new earth” to come. (Isaiah 65 :17-25)

God used the flood of Noah’s day to depict what that cleansing meant…..he washed the earth clean of all wickedness and started again with a fresh approach, although it was not time for his Messiah to give his life for us, so at best it was a stopgap measure as rebel angels were wreaking havoc on the nature of the human race, corrupting them horribly. He put a stop to that and put the demons under restraint.

If you read the scriptures, you see that “heaven” was never a destination for humans or animals to God’s ancient servants who believed in a physical “new heaven and a new earth“ to come…..not the destruction of the originals, but a new earthly society of tried and tested servants of God, getting to enjoy what he first purposed for mankind on this carefully and lovingly prepared earth, with all its myriads of creatures.
We know in our heart of hearts that we belong here with them, as God intended.
And what need is there to destroy his handiwork in the heavens? The original heavens and earth were without defect. So he will fix what is wrong and bring his rulership back to mankind by means of his kingdom….the one Jesus taught us to pray for……for it to come to man, not for man to go to it.
God’s will can then be “done on earth as it is in heaven”.

Since theologians are a poor source of Bible knowledge, (being trained only in promoting man made religious doctrines) it is a good thing to go straight to God’s word for the answers to our many questions.

Owning homes we have built with our own hands, and eating food that we have grown to share with our neighbors, we will live everlasting life right here on God’s gift to us……spoiled by rebellion for now, but in the final outworking of God’s purpose, it will come full circle and return to what God originally planned as the wonderful life we will live in flesh that is no longer plagued by sin.…in a restored paradise.

In God’s new world, no animal will do harm to man or any other creature, (Isa 65:25) and as we see in the Genesis account, all were originally vegetarians. (Gen 1:30) They will no doubt go back to that state as we may well do too. Some of the most powerful creatures on earth are vegetarians….God provides for them all.

Those who are invited to go to heaven are of God’s choosing, and they will assist his son and our appointed King in bringing God’s rulership back where it rightfully belongs…..taking a thousand years to undo all the damage that satan and those he is able to influence, have done to the earth and each other. (Rev 11:18)

What a relief it will be to finally have a righteous government ruling over mankind that will do all that is promised….incorruptible “kings and priests” hand picked by God, acting in love and genuine care for God’s worshippers. (Rev 20:6)

I look forward to the future when that lamb and the wolf with the little girl will be a reality.
In case you are not familiar with my background…I’m not knowledgeable in most JW teachings. I only know bits and pieces. If I understood correctly: there are no animals in heaven, but more so only a select few are chosen for heaven. Yet animals will be on the restored earth with those chosen for earth? although those animals will not be resurrected pets. ? Did I understand correctly?
 

Aunty Jane

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In case you are not familiar with my background…I’m not knowledgeable in most JW teachings. I only know bits and pieces. If I understood correctly: there are no animals in heaven,
Since only spirits can exist in heaven, animals are flesh and blood like we are, so no, animals are not found in heaven, God made them to enjoy life on earth with us.

but more so only a select few are chosen for heaven.
Yes, the Bible calls them “the chosen ones” (“eklektos”) because it is God who chooses them for a role in heaven as “kings and priests”. (Rev 20:6) This word in Greek is often translated “the elect”.
Yet animals will be on the restored earth with those chosen for earth?
Animals will live on earth forever as they were designed by God to do….just not individually. They are designed to reproduce their kind perpetually. God did not design animals to live forever and they have no concept of time…they live in the moment and we can enjoy those moments with them.
But if we lose a beloved pet, when a new pet is introduced to the family, they have a way of taking the pain of the previous loss, away….and we grow to love them too.

although those animals will not be resurrected pets. ? Did I understand correctly?
Yes, basically….animals will always be a part of our life, and there will always be “domestic” animals and “wild“ animals….some who are designed to dwell with us, and some who are designed for life in the wild…as it was in the beginning….the wild animals have an amazing self sufficiency as their habitat is also designed to provide for their needs. Domestic animals are actually great lawn mowers. :hmhehm Chkl:
 
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Aunty Jane

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I guess what catches my attention about this topic, is my friend just lost her dog and we’ve been talking about it a lot the past couple weeks.
I’m sorry to hear about your friend…especially in her circumstance…truly a very sad situation.
It reminds me of a lady I met some time ago, who had lost 5 members of her family in just 12onths, the last one was a new baby. She was overwhelmed with grief and wanted to know why God would allow such things to happen?
I was happy to show her from the Bible that her loved ones weren’t suffering in anyway, nor were they even conscious somewhere else, and missing their family….a thought that plagued me when I lost my father at a young age. Was he as sad without us as we were without him? So many thoughts go through your mind, but the truth doesn’t have to be brutal….I know the comfort I felt just knowing that my Dad was not as distressed as we were. And that because he didn’t go to church, he wasn’t in hell either. The way the Bible describes death is like “sleeping”. (Eccl 9:5, 10) “The dead know nothing”….they are not conscious and at peace.

Grief is a natural response to death because, unlike the animals who are basically programmed for death and readily accept it, we humans do not….we have no programme for death(Eccl 3:20-21)….to us it is an enemy, because we went from the potential for an infinite existence at the beginning, to a very finite one that could be cut short at any moment, for a hundred different reasons. Coming to terms with death takes time, no matter what we have lost…..a friend, a beloved pet or family member, it never sits well.

We need to know what has happened to them and the Bible’s description of death gave me comfort, despite my grief. In recent times I have lost my husband and my mother….as well as watching my son slowly succumbing to a terminal neurological disorder, so I am no stranger to the grim reaper.

Comfort from the scriptures, as well as the hope of the resurrection keeps them all close to my heart knowing that death will not separate us for very much longer. (John 5:28-29) I will see them again when the world is made new, and life can continue…..better than it has ever been. (1 Cor 2:9)
 
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PossibleThrowawayAccount

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I did a thread about this a while back. I can't tell enough people of how animals too will be resurrected.
Romans 8:20 and 21 describes how the whole creation is groaning and travailing, waiting for restoration: “The creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God” (WEB). Do these references perhaps imply that God’s non-human creatures on this earth, which had no responsibility for the origin of evil, will be ultimately set free from decay/curse by their resurrection/salvation?
To me, this verse is the ultimate "yes." Some translations say "creature" while others say "creation" but ultimately I think the whole point of this verse is "All of creation" be it human, animal, bird, serpent, insect, sea creature, microscopic thing, and even the plant life. God never intended for anything to die and on the new earth everything will be restored.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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I’m sorry to hear about your friend…especially in her circumstance…truly a very sad situation.
It reminds me of a lady I met some time ago, who had lost 5 members of her family in just 12onths, the last one was a new baby. She was overwhelmed with grief and wanted to know why God would allow such things to happen?
I was happy to show her from the Bible that her loved ones weren’t suffering in anyway, nor were they even conscious somewhere else, and missing their family….a thought that plagued me when I lost my father at a young age. Was he as sad without us as we were without him? So many thoughts go through your mind, but the truth doesn’t have to be brutal….I know the comfort I felt just knowing that my Dad was not as distressed as we were. And that because he didn’t go to church, he wasn’t in hell either. The way the Bible describes death is like “sleeping”. (Eccl 9:5, 10) “The dead know nothing”….they are not conscious and at peace.

Grief is a natural response to death because, unlike the animals who are basically programmed for death and readily accept it, we humans do not….we have no programme for death(Eccl 3:20-21)….to us it is an enemy, because we went from the potential for an infinite existence at the beginning, to a very finite one that could be cut short at any moment, for a hundred different reasons. Coming to terms with death takes time, no matter what we have lost…..a friend, a beloved pet or family member, it never sits well.

We need to know what has happened to them and the Bible’s description of death gave me comfort, despite my grief. In recent times I have lost my husband and my mother….as well as watching my son slowly succumbing to a terminal neurological disorder, so I am no stranger to the grim reaper.

Comfort from the scriptures, as well as the hope of the resurrection keeps them all close to my heart knowing that death will not separate us for very much longer. (John 5:28-29) I will see them again when the world is made new, and life can continue…..better than it has ever been. (1 Cor 2:9)
Concerning “the dead know nothing”. With all due respect I have a different perspective on that passage. But since it gives you comfort there is no use in sharing another perspective on “the dead know nothing.” I can relate though to a lot of your post. My mother is 93. She is ready for death and sometimes upsets me in how much she begs for it. I feel the same watching her in pain and deteriorating which makes me conflicted inside feeling like a bad child. When I was a little girl I was terrified of losing my mother and begged God constantly to NOT let her die. I had some phobia of abandonment where I asked mom always “are you going to die?” Now I’m the opposite “are you going to out live us all?” which is conflicting. mom tells me openly that she believes you go into the grave and then there is nothing else. She doesn’t believe in a resurrection or something afterward but she see mercy as her ending and the pain ending where there is nothing more. I can’t convince her otherwise. I do see though how someone could find comfort in the grave of “the dead know nothing”. Although I really don’t think that’s the point of the verse…

I do want to touch on
Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. [19] For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. [21] Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? [22] Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

To me those are the two things that stand out:
That we are beast
And because of infirmities … man has no preeminence over beast
Hebrews 7:28
For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Preeminence” that word in my opinion is important even when you speak of a restoration where there is a restoration of what it was supposed to be in the beginning where there is a “preeminence” of man over beast. But to me it’s not talking about animals but the beast within us. As Paul spoke of knowing how to rule his vessel in service unto God. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

I think (Imo) often times “beast” is seen as squirrels, dogs, cats…but those are not at the heart of “for the law makes men high priests which have infirmity(man and beast both go to the same place); but the word of the oath, which was since the law, makes the Son, who was consecrated for evermore”

Colossians 1:18-19 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. [19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Yes …preeminence is key (Imo) for the restoration of all things. Yet it seems there are still those who love to have preeminence and will not receive of the body of Christ but instead casting them out of the church. Why did I have to include 3 John 1:9-10? I’m not meaning it directed at you but only included it because it seems like that the state of most of it today… those who have preeminence rule and we see the state of that ruler ship.
3 John 1:9-10 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, receives us not. [10] Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither does he himself receive the brethren, and forbids them that would, and casts them out of the church.

Having preeminence over cats or dogs(man over beast) …I don’t struggle so much with that. But preeminence spoken of in 2 Corinthians 10:3-8 (man over beast)in given (granted) “preeminence” which is mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds, casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience (preeminence) of Christ … to me that is a needful restoration of mans preeminence over beast.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Concerning “the dead know nothing”. With all due respect I have a different perspective on that passage. But since it gives you comfort there is no use in sharing another perspective on “the dead know nothing.”
I have to say, reading through the scriptures you quoted, that archaic English always defeated me in my understanding of the full meaning of the Scriptures. I study the Bible using different modern translations with an Interlinear and a concordance so that I know what the original message was, not confused by what is now, outdated language.

I understand the love of the ‘olde’ English poetically, but to me it belongs in a Shakespearean play….so, as the Bible was not written in archaic English, the words and phraseology of which (for me) often loses the true meaning of what was originally written. The Bible is the "inspired word of God", but translation is the work of men.

The whole purpose of translation is not for the poetry, but to enhance understanding from one language to another. So for the purpose of better understanding I hope you don’t mind me using the NASB, which is quite a good translation IMO. I also like the ESV and I consult others for comparison.

Having said that, I would like to hear your perspective, as I am interested in what moves people to accept many things that I now reject as truth. I was raised in Christendom, so I am familiar with its doctrines….I carefully examined them over many years to make sure that what I was accepting was solidly based in Scripture...not in entrenched doctrines created by men, so long ago that no one questions them.

The reason I want to know is based on verse 10 of Eccl 9....
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."
Since man has no ability to think, or plan or to know anything in "sheol" (which the Jewish Tanakh translates as "the grave").....if we have no advantage over the animals in death...all going to "sheol", then we are all just basically worm food until the time comes for the resurrection. God does not need a single molecule of our former body to recreate us. Otherwise those who have been cremated and had their ashes scattered, or those eaten by wild animals, or sharks, or crocs....are in big trouble.
 
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Aunty Jane

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I do want to touch on
Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. [19] For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. [21] Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? [22] Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?
Eccl 3:18-22 NASB…
“ I said to myself regarding the sons of mankind, “God is testing them in order for them to see that they are as animals, they to themselves.” For the fate of the sons of mankind and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath, and there is no advantage for mankind over animals, for all is futility. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the spirit of the sons of mankind ascends upward and the spirit of the animal descends downward to the earth? I have seen that nothing is better than when a person is happy in his activities, for that is his lot. For who will bring him to see what will occur after him?”


You’ll notice the use of the word “spirit” in this passage compared to (what I assume is) the KJV?

The word in Hebrew is “rûaḥ” which can be translated a number of ways in English. Christendom’s interpretation of this word in their English Bibles is influenced by their belief in an immortal soul. This passage highlights that difference…… “rûaḥ” is translated as both “spirit“ and “breath” in the NASB, but only as “spirit“ in the KJV.

Does this matter? It certainly does, because when Solomon wrote his contributions to scripture, the ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife (in the departure of an immortal soul from the body at death. Under Greek influence, the Jews adopted that belief later).
Originally, they believed in resurrection, which is a restoration of life rather than a continuation of it.

For Jews, “sleeping in death” meant no conscious existence at all until they were called from their graves, as Lazarus was. (John 11: 11-14; John 5:28-29)
So we see from Solomon’s words that all living things breathe the same air, and when breathing stops, all “souls” (living, breathing creatures) die. (Ezekiel 4:18)

As the foretold apostasy took over the Christian faith, three major departures were gradually introduced into the minds of the converted Christians….all borrowed from paganism, not scripture.

1) That the Jewish Shema (Deut 6:4) was somehow changed from “one God”, to three gods in one ‘head’.

2) That the resurrection as they believed, was not a restoration back to physical life on earth, but that man possessed a soul that was a distinct and separate part of his humanity that was indestructible and departed from the body to go somewhere else at death.
A distinction between “soul” and “spirit” was lost as they came to mean the same thing. They do not.

3) That the peace of “sleeping in death” was replaced by these “souls” departing to one of two destinations, either to eternal life in heavenly bliss with the Lord.….or to a “hell” of eternal torment in flames from which no one could escape. What power there was in this created fear. Power is corrupting, as we all know.

So when we see passages that are mistranslated and misleading, not because the Bible is wrong, but because things are read into words that now have a changed meaning, there is confusion because nothing makes sense when there is contradiction.
Either God is who he said he is…”one” entity…...and Jesus is the “son of God”, which is what he said he is…or we are being lied to.

John 17:1-3…
“Jesus spoke these things; and raising His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.“ (NASB)

The son was given authority over all mankind by his God and Father…..(Matt 28:18)
If Jesus was God, then who can give him any authority that he doesn’t already have?

Sticking to the Bible’s teachings, means understanding what those teachings were before the corruption took place. Jesus and his apostles warned that it would come, but Christendom, in its hopelessly divided state, cannot see it and pretends that it never happened.

Establishing these truths then impacts on what we have been persuaded to believe, depending on who we listened to and who touched our heart. The devil the has a large playground and can disguise himself as “an angel of light”.
Can we see what he has accomplished in his world of influence? (1 John 5:19)
The truth has become like a diamond lost in a pile of broken glass...
 
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Aunty Jane

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To me those are the two things that stand out:
That we are beast
And because of infirmities … man has no preeminence over beast
Interesting word “preeminence”….in Hebrew it is “môṯār” which is used only three times in the Hebrew Scriptures…once as “profit” and twice as “advantage”. So if we replace “preeminence” with “advantage” in that verse, what then is this saying? Humans die the same death as animals. We have no advantage over them in death as we all go to the same place…Sheol. (Eccl 9:5, 10) "the grave" where we all end up.….but it is a place of complete inactivity.…no ability to plan, to think or to act in any way….just a peaceful and restful “sleep”.
Hebrews 7:28
For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Preeminence” that word in my opinion is important even when you speak of a restoration where there is a restoration of what it was supposed to be in the beginning where there is a “preeminence” of man over beast. But to me it’s not talking about animals but the beast within us. As Paul spoke of knowing how to rule his vessel in service unto God. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
I agree that in the restoration of all things, God will bring us back to the sinless perfection with which he created us….sin is the cause of death…so in the elimination of sin, there is also the elimination of death. (Rev 21:2-4)
But only for humans….animals do not sin because they are not made in God’s image, and have no concept of doing the wrong thing. They don’t fear death because they have no concept of death. Neither do they have a moral sense….all that they do is programmed by instinct…..they do not understand the reasons why they do what they do, because they don’t need to. They are programmed for self sufficiency, survival and reproduction. They exist because they have a Creator who loves to give life to millions of living things….but none can compare to humankind, who were given the powers of intelligence and the capacity to change their environment as they were instructed to do in Eden…..to “fill the earth and subdue it”

Sinful humans have the power to change their environment, but it is to their own detriment as we are seeing in this “time of the end”. What have we done to our only home? It’s a travesty that only God can fix.
Only humans can use their intelligence to deliberately cause their own death and plot the deaths of others whom they consider their enemies……they can do this in full knowledge of the fact that they too may well die in the process. How intelligent is man in his sinful state!? It’s pathetic!
I think (Imo) often times “beast” is seen as squirrels, dogs, cats…but those are not at the heart of “for the law makes men high priests which have infirmity(man and beast both go to the same place); but the word of the oath, which was since the law, makes the Son, who was consecrated for evermore”

Colossians 1:18-19 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. [19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Another interesting verse as the “preeminence“ here is a different word, “prōteuō” which has a similar meaning…to “hold first place”. Being “the firstborn from the dead” didn’t mean that Jesus was the fist man to be resurrected, but the first to attain to spirit life upon his resurrection, opening the way for others to join him in heaven later. Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, so a “new birth” to a form of life that can exist in the presence of God was necessary for them to carry out their assignment in heaven. (Rev 20:6) Being ruled by them, we can look forward to the best government we have ever had!
 

Aunty Jane

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Yes …preeminence is key (Imo) for the restoration of all things. Yet it seems there are still those who love to have preeminence and will not receive of the body of Christ but instead casting them out of the church. Why did I have to include 3 John 1:9-10? I’m not meaning it directed at you but only included it because it seems like that the state of most of it today… those who have preeminence rule and we see the state of that ruler ship.
3 John 1:9-10 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, receives us not. [10] Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither does he himself receive the brethren, and forbids them that would, and casts them out of the church.
I could not agree more…..the foretold “falling away“ from the true Christian faith is very visible, and the sad and sorry state of Christendom cannot be a true definition of “Christianity” because it does not resemble the first century model at all.…not in its beliefs or practice.

Division is a result of not having God’s uniting spirit. All the squabbling over doctrine is pointless if they all teach their own version of God and Christ…..the only things that unite them are the three doctrines that prove that none of them are upholding Christ’s teachings.

The true Christian faith (according to my studies), has nothing in common with that rabble but has separated from them completely. They will have obeyed the command in Rev 18:4-5….
Having preeminence over cats or dogs(man over beast) …I don’t struggle so much with that. But preeminence spoken of in 2 Corinthians 10:3-8 (man over beast)in given (granted) “preeminence” which is mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds, casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience (preeminence) of Christ … to me that is a needful restoration of mans preeminence over beast.
What man was given over the animals was dominion.…”rāḏâ” which means “to rule, dominate or subjugate“…so man was to rule the animals or to bring them under his control in a way that God himself would do….with love and kindness….not in a bullying way. (Pardon the pun)

I see what you mean though…..
But what I believe 2 Cor 10: 3-8 is getting at in essence, is that we are in a spiritual war against all the things that satan has introduced to make our worship unacceptable to God….

“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage battle according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying arguments and all arrogance raised against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ“. (NASB)

To me this means making sure that what we believe is from God’s word, and not from the multi-faceted false religious empire that the devil has established in the world to direct our worship away from God. What he did to Israel, he did exactly the same with Christendom, dividing men who constantly argued over who was teaching the truth….the fact is NONE of them were. Their arguments with each other were pointless.

We are living in the last days of this wicked world and it’s disintegrating morality is evident. A fall is inevitable because humans are ignoring all the signs God gave to show them what will soon take place……

”Just like the days of Noah” Jesus said…and here we are. (Matt 24:37-39)

I'm sorry this is so long, but you don't have to read it all at once. I will just leave it as a response, and you can do with it as you wish.

I wanted to answer your post as thoroughly as I could.....I am a Beroean....
 
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Aunty Jane

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Just to add.....
My mother is 93. She is ready for death and sometimes upsets me in how much she begs for it. I feel the same watching her in pain and deteriorating which makes me conflicted inside feeling like a bad child.
I lost my mother just a year ago at the ripe old age of 98. She too was ready for death, though not at all settled about what it meant, as she was more agnostic than Christian. She was the last of her generation, so I think it gave her comfort to join all those she was missing, wherever that might be…especially my father as she never remarried, even though she was only 44 when he died.
He was her soul mate.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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The reason I want to know is based on verse 10 of Eccl 9....
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."
Since man has no ability to think, or plan or to know anything in "sheol" (which the Jewish Tanakh translates as "the grave").....if we have no advantage over the animals in death...all going to "sheol", then we are all just basically worm food until the time comes for the resurrection. God does not need a single molecule of our former body to recreate us. Otherwise those who have been cremated and had their ashes scattered, or those eaten by wild animals, or sharks, or crocs....are in big trouble.
Concerning bible translations and why I keep quoting the KJV? It’s nothing more than out of habit for me. The Kjv was the one I started with. It just happened to be the version of bible laying around my home never having been touched. About …I think seven years ago… I decided to open one and read it. I like the online lexicon also. I also like the version you said you prefer because my bible app will often give me this version also. I’m not against any version if it brings clarity to the reader. Sometimes other versions help me far more than the Kjv, but the Kjv is a habit for me. I guess I need to start respecting others when quoting the kjv? maybe others are more frustrated by its old language?


Concerning Ecclesiastes … “the dead know nothing” and how in the grave, the lowest parts there is “nothing more”
“No more reward in the grave”
spoken of in Ecclesiastes “no more reward” so “eat and be merry” (even a warning in the NT where they are eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage…and “unaware it comes upon them”…to me this is “the dead know nothing” their caught unaware as a thief comes in the night then what will their reward be that they trusted in?)
Ecclesiastes says for all end up in the same place…first this was spoken of before One descended into the lowest parts, before one descended into the grave and overcome the grave.
“For the dead know nothing”
To me that could be translated “those in darkness know nothing but sleep” “unaware” …but unless I misunderstood the Word says “it shouldn’t be so with you” “you are of the Day” “You are the Light” “not as one dead, not as one who sleeps who knows nothing where a thief approaches and overtakes you but be not drunken with “be merry we have our reward!” But watching, sober and awake …”

Ecclesiastes 9:5 Lexicon: For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

^contradiction because it only speaks of one “they have their reward “so drink! Be merry!” Because there is no more reward beyond the grave “this is your best life now!” Mindset. Steal, kill, destroy your brother because this is it. This is all there is.
Matthew 6:1-2 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. [2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But there is more than “all go to the same place” and “the dead know nothing” for if there is no “Alive in Him, making many rich towards God” …then why do JW …witness of more “reward” that goes beyond the grave? Having passed from death unto Life? And how those “Living” “alive in God” are aware of something “the dead” “those remaining in darkness still” are blind of and do not know? Why warn the dead and those remaining in darkness if …all has the same knowledge?
 
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PGS11

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Animal did not fall like humans they don't need to be saved they don't sin.But they have to suffer through it.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Numbers 22 is intriguing: the Lord opens the mouth of Balaam’s donkey, who speaks to his master. Notice that God does not give special intelligence and speech to the donkey, but simply “opens his mouth” and he speaks! Then the angel asks the penetrating question of Balaam, “‘Why have you struck your donkey?’” (vs. 32, NKJV). God was concerned about the cruel abuse of an animal! My daughter, Rahel Schafer, has recently defended her Ph.D. dissertation dealing with the many other passages in which the animals speak, and even cry out to God, and God answers their cry!1 See, for example, Job 12:7–9; 40:15–19; 41:10; Psalm 104:21, 27, 28; and Isaiah 43:20.

Along with God’s frequently expressed concern for the animals in the Old Testament is the instructive verse on the lips of Jesus in the New Testament: “‘Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God’” (Luke 12:6, NIV). In biblical thought, for God to “remember” is to act in behalf of someone or something (see Genesis 8:1, in which God remembered Noah and the animals in the ark by delivering them from death). If God does not “forget” the sparrows that fall (die), then doesn’t this imply that He will “remember,” i.e., act in behalf of the ones who have fallen—save them?

Romans 8:20 and 21 describes how the whole creation is groaning and travailing, waiting for restoration: “The creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God” (WEB). Do these references perhaps imply that God’s non-human creatures on this earth, which had no responsibility for the origin of evil, will be ultimately set free from decay/curse by their resurrection/salvation?

I find it fascinating to read the comments of Ellen G. White, describing the affection and trusting qualities of animals: “The intelligence displayed by many dumb animals approaches so closely to human intelligence that it is a mystery. The animals see and hear and love and fear and suffer. They use their organs far more faithfully than many human beings use theirs. They manifest sympathy and tenderness toward their companions in suffering. Many animals show an affection for those who have charge of them, far superior to the affection shown by some of the human race. They form attachments for man which are not broken without great suffering to them.”2

A host of recent studies of animal behavior, intelligence, and emotion are now substantiating these comments.3 The love and trust of these animals—are not these the very qualities that God is seeking in His human followers, the qualities that will fit them for heaven? If the animals possess such qualities, are they not also fit for heaven?

C. S. Lewis suggested that perhaps the animals that have been pets and others who have attained to a “soul,” developing positive qualities such as love and trust, will in particular be the ones resurrected.4 What Lewis did not recognize is that the Bible calls all animals “souls” or “persons,” just like human beings (Gen. 1:20, 21, 24, 30; 9:10, etc.).

Throughout his multi-volume allegory of the plan of salvation, The Chronicles of Narnia, Lewis explored the further possibility of animals talking. The Bible seems to concur: Psalm 148 describes “‘Beasts and all cattle; creeping things and winged fowl” (vs. 10, NASB) as among those creatures that praise the Lord. Revelation 5:13 has “every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: ‘To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever’” (NIV).

The language of Psalm 104:24 to 30 may imply the end-time resurrection of marine and celestial as well as terrestrial creatures. S. R. Driver writes: “Few, if any, readers of the Old Testament seem to have noticed that, as the text [of Psalm 104:24–30] stands and as it can only be read without violating normal standards of interpretation, they are committed to the strange doctrine of the resurrection not only of man and of birds and beasts but also of Leviathan and the ‘creeping’ or rather ‘gliding things innumerable’ which swim in the sea (Ps. civ. 10–30).”5 Driver points out that the “they all” (vs. 27, NASB) which “are created” (vs. 30, NIV) “must mean all, not some, of them, sc. of God’s creatures, whether men and beasts and birds or fishes, mentioned in the course of the psalm.”6 Although Driver acknowledges that this is the meaning of the text in its present form, he assumes such meaning to be “objectionable” and thus suggests radical excision of the text. But if one accepts the text as it stands, as I think is the best position to take, then this passage seems to point toward the resurrection of a wide range of animals.

I do not intend to imply that the above evidence is conclusive. It is only suggestive at best. But there are enough “hints” in inspired sources that we do not need to inform our children when they lose pets that they will never see them again. For children, whose whole life may have been wrapped up in a precious pet, to tell them the animal will never be resurrected, unnecessarily gives negative signals about God’s character of love. I suggest, instead, that parents tell their children, when a pet dies, “When you get to heaven, if you want your pet to be there, God will certainly give you the desire of your heart.” This is a safe answer, for Scripture says, “Delight yourself also in the Lord, and He shall give you the desires of your heart” (Ps. 37:4, NKJV), and if the animals should not be resurrected, then in our immortal state we will not desire them. Paul’s promise in 1 Corinthians 2:9 is to the point (quoting Isaiah), “‘No eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him’” (NRSV). Why not envision the resurrection of our pets and other animals in this promise?

I find the possibility of the resurrection of animals consistent with the whole great controversy between and Christ and Satan, in which God will at last make everything right. When I think of all the innocent animals that have suffered at the hands of cruel humans, and other animals who have suffered while Satan rejoiced, I’m led to believe that God can hardly wait to make right this part of Satan’s work, too. One must also take account of all the innocent sacrifices as part of the divinely ordained Old Testament ceremonial system, which revealed in symbolism the horror of sin and its baleful results, and pointed toward the coming of the Lamb of God. I cannot imagine that God would allow all of this divinely directed innocent suffering without finally “remembering” those who have suffered by saving/resurrecting them!

I’m not “dog”matic about this suggestion. God may have another way to solve this problem that is far beyond what I now imagine! I know God will do what is best. Someday soon we will know for sure when we see Him (and our pets and other animals?) face to face in heaven! In that day, “there will no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away!” (Rev. 21:4, NASB).



NOTES AND REFERENCES

1. A. Rahel Schafer, “‘You, YHWH, Save Humans and Animals’: God’s Response to the Vocalized Needs of Non-human Animals as Portrayed in the Old Testament” (Ph.D. dissertation, Wheaton College, 2015).​

2. The Ministry of Healing, 315, 316.​

3. See, e.g., Vint Virga, The Soul of All Living Creatures: What Animals Can Teach Us About Being Human (New York: Broadway, 2014); Virginia Morell, Animals Wise: How We Know Animals Think and Feel (New York: Broadway, 2014).​

4. C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (New York: Macmillan, 1962), 129–143.​

5. See G. R. Driver, “The Resurrection of Marine and Terrestrial Creatures,” Journal of Semitic Studies 7:1 (Spring 1962):
Sorry but animals have no immortal soul nor any capacity to sin and rebel against their creator. they have no need of salvation.

They were created to be under mans dominion.

When they die, their existence ceases. As for words like save- it also means deliver or preserve. ONe also needs to go to teh original language and see and then look at the context to determine if it is a soteriological or physical saving.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Animal did not fall like humans they don't need to be saved they don't sin.But they have to suffer through it.
I do get what you are saying and I’m definitely not trying to make a doctrine out of it but…

It does seem like all of this suffers decay and deterioration and death as a result of sin. Or is that only nature? The natural course of things? I’m thinking about the little bird who built her nest in the birdhouse on our porch. I watched her hatchlings and her feeding them everyday until late one evening just after dark, I came outside to an awful noise. She was trapped inside the birdhouse with her babies and a snake had crawled inside to have a feast. Even this I think displays God in the warning of what was to come creeping into the church unaware to devour those caught unaware. It was a horrible sound. I’m not saying the snake sinned but it did (at least to me) show a truth about this world in its brutality of nature to devour and prey on the weak. Yet (Imo) He came to turn that upside down to where His power rest upon the weak that the power be of Him, and not of their own doing. For example when He spoke of those religious leaders who devour widows houses…He said “you see these beautiful stone buildings, they are coming down!”
 

PGS11

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I also want to point out there are animals in heaven there are horses all over the place in Revelations unless you only want to see them as symbolic.
 
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Taken

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SALVATION OF ANIMALS

Saving is in regard to the SOUL, (via restoration, via Gods Power and Authority).

The WHOLE of Salvation (in my view), is an offering from God, via Christ Jesus, to Restore the soul, Rebirth a natural spirit & provide a means, time-frame, for glorifying a body.

The living soul departs out of its dying/dead body.

ALL (terrestrial, ie. earthly body’s) MUST / SHALL die.

The saved soul, per it’s judgement, shall gain a glorified body, and be returned to such body forever.

The unsaved soul, shall temporarily be returned to it’s former natural body, to face judgement. (Ultimately, life shall depart the body and soul, and that body and soul destroyed.)

The unsaved soul, IS unsaved, because during it’s life-time, in its natural living body, refused to accept and heartfully believe in the Lord God, which IS SIN AGAINST God.

Animals HAVE living souls in their living body’s, YET have not the cognitive ability or requirement to Believe in the Lord God.
* Thus Animals HAVE NOT the requirement to REPENT or CONFESS belief IN the Lord God, as a condition for their souls to become MADE SAVED.

Certainly I believe, the Lord God SAVES the souls of Animals, (when their body’s die) and they will be as well risen up in an ever lasting body, according to Gods Order, Way and Pleasure.

ALL animals? Personal opinion of speculation…likely not ALL animals, just as all humans do not appear to have an everlasting purpose in Gods everlasting Kingdom IN Heaven and On Earth.

Beasts, Cattle, Cat “family”, Wolf/ offspring Dog “family”, winged birds, are mentioned in Scripture as having a “place” in Gods Kingdom, and seems the same to which manKIND Anciently and to this day largely relies on FOR being in Awe, Companionship and Food in THIS world…
Just speculations based on Gods desire to pleasantly please His faithful people.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

PGS11

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There is also the talking donkey in the bible that story blows me away. The Donkey can see the angel but the rider can't and he tries to force the donkey forward but the donkey won't move because it sees the angel in the way. It happens 3 time and then the angel appears and the angel allows the Donkey to talk.Maybe they are more aware then we think.

21 Balaam got up in the morning, saddled his donkey and went with the Moabite officials. 22 But God was very angry when he went, and the angel of the Lord stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him. 23 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, it turned off the road into a field. Balaam beat it to get it back on the road.


24 Then the angel of the Lord stood in a narrow path through the vineyards, with walls on both sides. 25 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam’s foot against it. So he beat the donkey again.


26 Then the angel of the Lord moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left. 27 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat it with his staff. 28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”


29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”


30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

“No,” he said.


31 Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.


32 The angel of the Lord asked him, “Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me.[a] 33 The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If it had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but I would have spared it.”


34 Balaam said to the angel of the Lord, “I have sinned. I did not realize you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now if you are displeased, I will go back.”


35 The angel of the Lord said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but speak only what I tell you.” So Balaam went with Balak’s officials.


36 When Balak heard that Balaam was coming, he went out to meet him at the Moabite town on the Arnon border, at the edge of his territory. 37 Balak said to Balaam, “Did I not send you an urgent summons? Why didn’t you come to me? Am I really not able to reward you?”


38 “Well, I have come to you now,” Balaam replied. “But I can’t say whatever I please. I must speak only what God puts in my mouth.”


39 Then Balaam went with Balak to Kiriath Huzoth.
 
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