Salvation

[Sargento]

Hi everyone.

I imagine you've already talked about this but I didn't found the right topic so I created one because this is the most important matter of all and is the one that it most matters to me.

What do you believe in?
Is man saved by works or faith?

 

[Rank Stranger]

God gives us a very clear answer to that age-old question. It is found in Ephesians 2:8-9, which reads


8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Nuff said

Rank Stranger

 

[John S]

TRY to follow the words and examples of Jesus Christ (His actual words and examples and NOT the ones that you wish that He would have said) and commit as few sins as possible. Have faith in Him and do as many good works as you can.
Live your entire life like this and then let God decide whether you are worthy of going to Heaven or not.
We DON'T decide that - and anyone who says that he does, is exalting himself to a level that he shouldn't be exalting himself to.

 

[Selene]

We are saved by Grace. Grace comes through faith, which is expressed in good works for we become God's workmanship to do His good works rather than our own.

 

[horsecamp]

TRY to follow the words and examples of Jesus Christ (His actual words and examples and NOT the ones that you wish that He would have said) and commit as few sins as possible. Have faith in Him and do as many good works as you can.
Live your entire life like this and then let God decide whether you are worthy of going to Heaven or not.
We DON'T decide that - and anyone who says that he does, is exalting himself to a level that he shouldn't be exalting himself to.

have faith that Jesus ::almost:; won our salvation. what a lousy faith in Jesus that would be; would it not?

Jesus took our sins and gave us his perfect record of obedience

That's Gods great exchange-------------------- your going to heaven

because Jesus won it for you.

Isaiah 53. 5

 

[Dodo_David]

Ephesians 2:8-9 says it all:

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Yes, good works should be the product of faith, which the Apostle James refers to. However, the good works come after salvation has been obtained.

 

[Selene]

Ephesians 2:8-9 says it all:

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Yes, good works should be the product of faith, which the Apostle James refers to. However, the good works come after salvation has been obtained.

Faith and good works go together. The Bible never taught "faith alone" or "good works" alone. They go together hand in hand. One should include Ephesians 2:10 and not stop at verse 9. Good works is what makes faith complete. But it is not our work, but the work of the Holy Spirit in and through us.

Ephesians 2:9-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

 

[Dodo_David]

Dodo_David, on 29 Jul 2013 - 5:50 PM, said:
Ephesians 2:8-9 says it all:

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Yes, good works should be the product of faith, which the Apostle James refers to. However, the good works come after salvation has been obtained.

Faith and good works go together. The Bible never taught "faith alone" or "good works" alone. They go together hand in hand. One should include Ephesians 2:10 and not stop at verse 9. Good works is what makes faith complete. But it is not our work, but the work of the Holy Spirit in and through us.

Ephesians 2:9-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

The works that we do will demonstrate whether or not we are God's sheep, but those works don't save us.

 

[Selene]

The works that we do will demonstrate whether or not we are God's sheep, but those works don't save us.

Works alone cannot save us. The works that a Christian does is not his/her own good works, but the works of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit inside us that empowers us to do works that completes our faith......a faith that is a gift from God.

 

[Dodo_David]

Works alone cannot save us. The works that a Christian does is not his/her own good works, but the works of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit inside us that empowers us to do works that completes our faith......a faith that is a gift from God.

The question asked in the OP is this: "Is man saved by works or faith?"

Again, the Apostle Paul answers this in Ephesians 2:8-9:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

 

[Selene]

The question asked in the OP is this: "Is man saved by works or faith?"

Again, the Apostle Paul answers this in Ephesians 2:8-9:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

We are saved by grace. Why stop at verse 9 when it continues on to verse 10, where the Apostle Paul continues on to say that we were created to do good works, which God prepared for us. The Bible does not teach that we are saved by "faith alone" nor does it teach that we are saved by "good works" alone.

James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

 

[Sargento]

Tank you all...



Stranger...
Yes, I think it resumes it all... you could have said something more to complement it but that say's it all.



John S...
Well, I saw your advise, but my friend that does not really answers the question... however makes me think that you are not sure of what makes man saved.
I'm I right?



Selene...
It's expressed in good works towards GOD, not man.
The expression of faith is believing and love which is based on knowledge of GOD, not deeds. The believers do HIS good works because HE guides them and what we do is HE's works, not ours, the decisions we take are the ones HE leads us to, not our selves... those are the good works the reborn does... and that's why no reborn can sin, it's out of his reach because it's Jesus who directs him, and even if he commits a sin (in the world's eyes - exterior) it was under GOD's will.... that's why he is not able to sin and only makes good works.

But concerning to man visible works, there is no faithful expression... many times the wicked does much better deeds than the saint, and the atheist behaves much better in therms of good works than a believer... what matter is the earth only, and is in that we do HIS good works... we build the SPIRITUAL grown man like Jesus by resisting sin and even by falling (falling externally in sin).

Actions are not a reflection of faith...


Horsecamp...
Exactly Horsecamp...

The promes was made to Abraham and is descendant (Jesus), and that promes are us, their sons... we are not the "deciders" nor the "payers", we are the fulfillment of that promes, and GOD did not left the keeping of that promes in our hands, but HE is keeping it to Abraham and Jesus... everytime one elect is reborn it's GOD giving them another son ... we are their sons that GOD promised them, we are the gift GOD gave Jesus.
We have nothing to do with HIS promess (if it happens or not), we're just the result of it. We're the result of GOD's fidelity... to say that an elect has to "won" or "achieve" salvation by his own means or own fidelity or works is saying that HE could fail because the keeping of HE's promess is in our hands.

Dodo...
This is why I said Stranger could have complement better his answer... you used that same passage but added that boast.
Like I said Selene, these works are not external, are internal and made by Jesus in us, we are the bricks of the new Jerusalem HE is building.

Now those works you're talking about mean nothing... you see good and bad works in the wicked has much as in the just.




I'm going now to open another topic to complement this one... it is a different topic but it's crucial to this one.

 

[aspen]

All relationships are started by grace and maintained through faith and work. Marriage, familial, friendship, and God/human

 

[Dodo_David]

The Bible does not teach that we are saved by "faith alone" nor does it teach that we are saved by "good works" alone.

James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Whether or not one's faith is alive is seen in one's works, because the works are the products of one's faith.

In Romans 10:9-10, the Apostle Paul writes, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Back during Paul's day, openly declaring with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" was a work that could only be the product of saving faith, because one risked being executed by the Roman government if one openly made such a statement.

In 1 John 5:13, we read the following: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Christians don't do good works to be saved. They do good works because they are saved.

 

[Selene]

Selene...
It's expressed in good works towards GOD, not man.
The expression of faith is believing and love which is based on knowledge of GOD, not deeds. The believers do HIS good works because HE guides them and what we do is HE's works, not ours, the decisions we take are the ones HE leads us to, not our selves... those are the good works the reborn does... and that's why no reborn can sin, it's out of his reach because it's Jesus who directs him, and even if he commits a sin (in the world's eyes - exterior) it was under GOD's will.... that's why he is not able to sin and only makes good works..

God does not need us to do good works toward Him. Since when does God need our help? The good works comes from God. God uses us as His instrument to carry out His will and His work to help others.

But concerning to man visible works, there is no faithful expression... many times the wicked does much better deeds than the saint, and the atheist behaves much better in therms of good works than a believer... what matter is the earth only, and is in that we do HIS good works... we build the SPIRITUAL grown man like Jesus by resisting sin and even by falling (falling externally in sin).

I agree. This is why we don't believe in "good works alone" because even the atheist can do good works. We also don't believe in "faith alone" because that is not what the Bible teaches. Saying "I believe in God" is not good enough. Even the devil believes in God, but the devil doesn't produce any good works (See James 2:19).

Actions are not a reflection of faith...

According to the Bible, action is what completes our faith.

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

 

[Dodo_David]

Doing the works of God reveals that one's faith is alive, as opposed to being dead ( James 2:14-17 ).

 

[Selene]

Doing the works of God reveals that one's faith is alive, as opposed to being dead ( James 2:14-17 ).

This is why I believe that faith and good works go together hand in hand. They were never separate. The Bible does not teach "faith alone" or "good works" alone. It had always been faith and good works together.

After all, a person can have faith and no good works. This is what you call "dead faith."

 

[Blue Lanai]

@Sargento:

I believe we are saved by grace, first and foremost.

Regarding the whole faith vs. works debate, here's what James had to say:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

-- James 2:14-22

How each person interprets that is up to them.

 

[Sargento]

Aspen...

All relationships are started by grace and maintained through faith and work. Marriage, familial, friendship, and God/human

Perfect description of the law... God chooses one people and then they must maintain this "grace" by their works... a grace that is deserved by works... imagine that.
That's not grace, that's the law Aspen.... that's not a FREE salvation.


Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then {is it} no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if {it be} of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded {blinded: or, hardened}
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. {slumber: or, remorse}
Romanos 11:5-8

SELENE...

The Bible does not teach that we are saved by "faith alone" nor does it teach that we are saved by "good works" alone.

Complementing my previous answer to this:

Look the verse above.... there's many many more.

CLOSE... (??)

@Sargento:

I believe we are saved by grace, first and foremost.

Regarding the whole faith vs. works debate, here's what James had to say:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

-- James 2:14-22

How each person interprets that is up to them.

Is this your nick or were you banned??

Either way...

About James we're discussing it in the James vs Paul topic, about the individual interpretation... yes, if you don't care about the truth that's how it goes, but if you care about it there's only ONE right interpretation... and all Christians think equally.

 

[aspen]

Sargento

so, what you really mean is....all Christians think like you? How come you seem to disagree with everyone here? Do you really think you are the only Christian who posts here?