satan a creature or man without God

[VictoryinJesus]

This was an interesting discussion which came again to my attention. I have copied post #1 here, but a whole lot more is between #1 and #138. There are newer people here who may have some additional edifying input on the subject:

@bbyrd009 @pia

bbyrd009 said: satan appears as an angel of light


pia said: Ever since I read this sentence in the Bible, I have realized that it must be either a misinterpretation or a misunderstanding, because satan has ZERO light in him, so how on earth is he supposed to suddenly stand there in front of us shining like an angel of God would.......I can see how it may mean that an idea can come to us, which 'appears' to us as if it is from the Lord and thus of the light, but can be a deception, but the being called satan, will most assuredly not have any power to show himself as a shining light anywhere, any time.....

The two above posts on another thread brought this thing of satan to my mind. While I have seen and heard many arguments in favor of the existence of the external entity called by that name, I have long discounted his existence as a separate being. Perhaps someone could give me reason to believe that such this external or separate entity exists.

In school many years ago I was taught that darkness is simply the absence of light. Why would this not be so in the case of the Light? Does not Jesus say that He is the light of the world?

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

With regard to this supposed creation named satan, when was he created or born?

Where was satan’s beginning?

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” I John 3:8

Even as Judas and Peter were devils was not Adam also a devil, the first devil? Was he not the first man that committed a sin. He sinned from the beginning.

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” Gen 1:31

Before Adam sinned everything God created was “very good”.

Even Adam was “very good”. But…God had given Adam something He had not given the rest of His creation: the ability to make informed choices.

Those choices included the ability to move into darkness, a place without the Light of God. Both Adam and Eve moved in that direction away from the Light and into the satanic darkness.

The serpent spoke to Eve or... was it the dark yearnings within her that spoke to her since it involved disobeying God and His Way of Light...

my question is what is the weapon formed against you, that crooked serpent that will not prosper?

a few thoughts and I’m not trying to be offensive, only sincerely question:

if we say satan is man without God ...then why do some speak to satan and rebuke him and go to war with him as if he is a real being...an adversary? Apart from man? and not within us...like Paul’s mention of: Romans 7:21-23 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If satan is man without God...then God didn’t form a being (or whatever) to waste and toss in the fire ...Job 26:12-14 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. [13] By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. [14] Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?

but instead man without God is separated in the fire and is destroyed.

Huge topic Amadeus. Again, not to be offensive but concerning the Catholic Church and all the movies where you see them go in with holy water and the demon starts screaming and wrestling before the priest. Seeing people torn with claw marks on their chest ...all the images of what satan looks like. I don’t understand when the word says he was beautiful. None of the images matching up with what God does tell us about satans appearance 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[amadeus]

Jesus is the authority on the existence of Satan.

Most certainly Jesus has the answers on this question and many things. So then the question to ask might be: How well do we know Jesus? How well do we understand what Jesus understands?

Satan exists, but who is he? How well should we want to know him? Would it not be better to forget what we already know or think that we know of this satan and focus on what more can know about Jesus? But... forgetting the evil may not be easy or possible or sometimes even the best thing for us.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

my question is what is the weapon formed against you, that crooked serpent that will not prosper?

a few thoughts and I’m not trying to be offensive, only sincerely question:

if we say satan is man without God ...then why do some speak to satan and rebuke him and go to war with him as if he is a real being...an adversary? Apart from man? and not within us...like Paul’s mention of: Romans 7:21-23 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If satan is man without God...then God didn’t form a being (or whatever) to waste and toss in the fire ...Job 26:12-14 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. [13] By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. [14] Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?

but instead man without God is separated in the fire and is destroyed.

Huge topic Amadeus. Again, not to be offensive but concerning the Catholic Church and all the movies where you see them go in with holy water and the demon starts screaming and wrestling before the priest. Seeing people torn with claw marks on their chest ...all the images of what satan looks like. I don’t understand when the word says he was beautiful. None of the images matching up with what God does tell us about satans appearance 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

@amadeus before I forget ‘form’ seems important. For instance: 2 Timothy 3:2-5 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, [3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, [4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; [5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

1 Samuel 28:13-16 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. [14] And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. [15] And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. [16] Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

 

[amadeus]

my question is what is the weapon formed against you, that crooked serpent that will not prosper?

When man died, [Adam and Eve] something was left. What was it? Then again what was there in man before the disobedience? The ideal was there, the persons, who could and did communicate directly with God. Also was there the possibility to go against what God had told them not to do... to eat of that certain tree. This was, as I see it, free will. Free will is the seed of our enemy, our adversary, the adversary of God, satan! We took the bait using the free will given to disobey God. Where in the Garden of Eden or elsewhere prior to that in time as depicted in the scriptures was this satan? When and where was he "created" or "made"? Did they not plant and water the wrong seed when they chose to disobey God and IT grew from there... the IT being perhaps, satan?

The weapon was formed from a means placed within each person to choose and go his own way, to direct his own steps. Jeremiah was shown this when he wrote these words:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Man, alone, taking hold of his own reins thinks that he is going someplace, but he is not. Rather than God's Right hand, the man has taken hold of the Left hand of God believing now that he is in control of his own destiny. The destiny he has chosen is allowed by God and used by God to accomplish what God and made possible for those who walked that way holding onto their own reins. All of us have that demon, that satan, that crooked serpent within ourselves... until we don't! God made the possibility of Not being led by that demon, that satan, that crooked serpent, when He sent Jesus to open the Way which man himself had caused to close.

a few thoughts and I’m not trying to be offensive, only sincerely question:

No offence taken!

if we say satan is man without God ...then why do some speak to satan and rebuke him and go to war with him as if he is a real being...an adversary? Apart from man? and not within us...like Paul’s mention of: Romans 7:21-23 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The old man was there even in Adam and Eve but only as a miniscule seed with no power at all... but with potential. The disobedience of that first couple opened up a way, which was really no way at all. Death is nothing. Death is darkness. They both appear to men to be what they are not and man seizes them with both hands.

Adam and Eve died immediately to the things of God when the devil made his first conquest. The devil, or satan, or the Left hand of God has a purpose, God's purpose. Perhaps God already had creatures created by Him that had never done any evil and never would. They really had no choice. God perhaps wanted some creatures who with the potential for evil and even having walked in evil ways, when shown the Truth would choose to follow the Truth out of Love against other options available which appeared in some cases or parts to be 'good'.

The inward man of us does the choosing. The old man's way is the devil's or satan's way. The new man's Way is God's Way. The old man's way(s) in each of us need to be overcome, to be killed. Those ways are our beast(s) as per...

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov. 9:1-2

Where does this wisdom that kills her beasts come into the picture?

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." Prov. 9:10

If satan is man without God...then God didn’t form a being (or whatever) to waste and toss in the fire ...Job 26:12-14 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. [13] By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. [14] Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?

Man polluted the clean fresh waters. If you have a river or stream or pond or lake in you vicinity can you or would you go to that body of water and drink from it without concerns about the quality of it? Cleaned by God it all flows to the sea carrying any garbage or pollutions with it and then evaporated into the the heavens it comes down as rain into the previously mentioned waters. My old pastor speaks of a time when his father, a full-blooded Chippewa of Ontario, Canada could with his little family drink directly from those fresh water sources with no fear of pollution. That was less than a century ago. It is another one of those types or shadows of God's whole reality versus what men see or believe that they see.

The pollution began when Adam and Eve ate the wrong fruit and has been growing men ever since. Men were effectively dead in the eyes of God, but they had Hope. God has left that them that glimmer of Hope. That Hope was the reality of the abundant Life which Jesus brought to men, the clean fresh water. Men put their dirty feet into the clean water too often as they have done from the beginning. A little clean dirt don't hurt too much, but it has moved way beyond that. How evil is satan? Why did the children of Israel make a bright shining calf [their own devil or satan] in the wilderness when Moses was on the mountain talking to God? Why did the children of Israel make a copy of a heathen idol that looked so nice [their own devil or satan] in a gentile land and make it their own to worship instead of the One true God?

Why did Naaman, the Syrian leper soldier get angry when told by the prophet to bathe in the Jordan waters? What is it that carnal man believe his own nation and his own ways are so good... even though he is a leper and is offered cleansing?

"And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.
But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.
Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage." II Kings 5:10-12

How clean are our waters? Where is our source of these clean living waters?

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." John 4:10

Have we stopped polluting the waters given to us by God?

but instead man without God is separated in the fire and is destroyed.

Huge topic Amadeus. Again, not to be offensive but concerning the Catholic Church and all the movies where you see them go in with holy water and the demon starts screaming and wrestling before the priest. Seeing people torn with claw marks on their chest ...all the images of what satan looks like. I don’t understand when the word says he was beautiful. None of the images matching up with what God does tell us about satans appearance 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The outside influences and testimonies and visions of people of God influence me and make it difficult to understand completely one way or the other. I lean, but I do not insist. Some people have accused me because I opened my mouth to question rather than either remaining quiet or jumping on their particular band wagon. They may indeed be right in their direction, but I cannot go their way simply because they insist that they have the AT [Absolute Truth] and I do not. Who has the AT, all of it, but God alone?

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus before I forget ‘form’ seems important. For instance: 2 Timothy 3:2-5 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, [3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, [4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; [5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

1 Samuel 28:13-16 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. [14] And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. [15] And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. [16] Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

What is 'form'? What is it a man sees in a woman or that she sees in him in the body of flesh alone that attracts them to one another? That is the flesh and that certainly was my first attraction to my own wife. That alone was insufficient. Five years later with two toddlers and a desire on both of our parts to make it work especially for the children, it was failing because the flesh was not enough. God arriving on the scene made the difference. That is a type or shadow in a way of the cleansing moving us from the polluted toward the artesian well springing forth from Jesus for each of us. The type or shadow itself seen and understood correctly may be clean next to where we were without each other, but growth is mandatory, a continuing and more thorough cleansing. Moving from dark to lighter to lighter to the very brightest of Lights... instead of moving into the darker places where the eyes cannot penetrate at all.

The dirt and filth that comes upon us from the outside, is that the devil or satan that afflicts us and make us dirty and filthy?

Mt 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mt 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

So where then is this devil or satan other than within us defiling us and those upon whom we expel our filth? Perhaps we do need to wear masks as per Covid 19 but with some differences... LOL