Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Grailhunter]

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” Hebrews 1:7 NASB
The KJV strikes again

 

[rwb]

I already did.....
2nd Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; Tartarus means deep abyss.

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—Jude 1:6

I've already addressed 2 Pe 2:4 & Jude 1:6! The entire chapter in both books is about human beings who were sons of God in the days before and during the flood. The MESSENGERS, which is how angel is defined are NOT angels of God, spirit beings, but HUMAN MESSENGERS of God who did not keep the high status as sons of God, but through lust of the flesh and pride became like the unbelieving daughters of men (unsaved) they lusted after and married and procreated with, and if God had not sent the flood to destroy them all, except Noah and his family, the whole creation would have become an abomination.

 

[rwb]

And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” Hebrews 1:7 NASB
The KJV strikes again

The KJV is not saying anything different than the NASB. Angels of God are spirits, and spirit defined from πνεῦμα pneûma means a current of air, wind, breath of life (see Gen. 2:7) that is spirit from the breath of God. Spirit of life in fact is described as a rushing mighty wind.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils [the breath of life; [spirit] and man became a living soul.

Acts 2:2 (KJV) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3-4 (KJV) And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

John 3:8 (KJV) The wind [pneuma] bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[Grailhunter]

I've already addressed 2 Pe 2:4 & Jude 1:6! The entire chapter in both books is about human beings who were sons of God in the days before and during the flood. The MESSENGERS, which is how angel is defined are NOT angels of God, spirit beings, but HUMAN MESSENGERS of God who did not keep the high status as sons of God, but through lust of the flesh and pride became like the unbelieving daughters of men (unsaved) they lusted after and married and procreated with, and if God had not sent the flood to destroy them all, except Noah and his family, the whole creation would have become an abomination.

Yes 2nd Peter is about false prophets but it also mention bad angels
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 2nd Peter 2:4

And Jude also mentions bad angels
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:6

 

[Grailhunter]

And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” Hebrews 1:7 NASB
The KJV strikes again

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:7 (NASB) And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
Big difference in wording and meaning.

 

[William Barton]

​

And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” Hebrews 1:7 NASB
The KJV strikes again

That is the way it reads, but it's confusing when translated that way.

"Angel" is Greek αγγελος and means "messenger" (Oxford Greek Dictionary).

"Ministers" ("those serving") is Greek λειτουργους and means "performing public duties."

One way to interpret it:
God sends the "ministering" wind (particularly by the air, that allows us to breathe). God also sends the "ministering" fire (particularly by the sun, that keeps us warm). The citation is from Psalm 104:4.

God has given us a *wonderful* home.

 

[rwb]

Yes 2nd Peter is about false prophets but it also mention bad angels
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 2nd Peter 2:4

And Jude also mentions bad angels
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:6

Messengers have been translated 'angels', but messengers in these verses do not refer to spirit beings, they are flesh and blood or human messengers, there should be no doubt when we consider the whole context refers to humans not angels.

 

[Grailhunter]

Messengers have been translated 'angels', but messengers in these verses do not refer to spirit beings, they are flesh and blood or human messengers, there should be no doubt when we consider the whole context refers to humans not angels.

Nope

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How is spirit defined? Breath, breathe, current of air, wind, mind/thought. Living physical creatures have a spirit, the spirit within is of good and or the spirit of evil without the spirit itself having flesh and bone and can only be manifested when living within physical creatures.

The Bible gives us no indication that Satan was created a personal spirit being.

Yes, it does. Repeatedly.

If Satan is not a created personal spirit being, then how do you explain this passage which portrays Satan as appearing before the Lord and talking to Him?

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your [k]power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

If Satan is not a created personal being, then how do you explain the following passage that describes Satan as talking to Jesus and trying to tempt Him in the wilderness?

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” 4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” 5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ” 7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ” 8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” 11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

If Satan is not a created personal spirit being, then how did he enter into Judas Iscariot?

Luke 22:1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them.

Tell me exactly who or what you think Satan is and where Satan came from.

It speaks only of the earth being without form and darkness that was upon the face of the deep. Darkness is to be without light, and is a metaphor for evil, [figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness:—dark(-ness), night, obscurity.]

Nope. That is talking about physical darkness. God created physical light which penetrated the physical darkness. Why is it that you can't even understand the simplest of things? You need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Spiritual darkness would not be contrasted with spiritual light in the sense that is written about here. Spiritual darkness and light are not divided into day and night and the evening and the morning. This is very obviously referring to physical darkness and light.

Even when speaking of the serpent (Satan/devil/adversary etc.) that existed at creation, the Bible tells us only that "the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made", without saying exactly when this whisperer, prognosticator, and enchanter became influencer over all evil and death that would be called "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

Right, it doesn't tell us exactly when the devil, Satan, was created, but that doesn't mean we can conclude that he isn't a created personal spirit being.

As I have now repeatedly said, God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." In the beginning there was only darkness, darkness that God says He created, darkness that was when God spoke and His light divided the darkness from the light, but God did not completely obliterate the darkness. This was BEFORE God created the sun, moon and stars to give daylight and night upon the whole earth. We get a sense of what this darkness was like through the words God spoke to Moses, "the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt."

That is talking about physical darkness, also. It was so dark that no one in Egypt could physically see anything in front of them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God never explicitly speaks of creating spirit beings.

So what? Scripture strongly implies it. Where else could spirit beings have come from if they were not created by God? Or are you denying the existence of created spirit beings called angels and demons altogether, which would be a change from what you have said previously about angels and demons.

He tells us simply that there is spirit of both light and spirit of darkness. We read only that every living breathing creature upon the earth has both physical body and spirit, the two together called souls. But of His angels (messengers), Gods spirits, "ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation." God doesn't say angels (spirit messengers) were created. Only that spirits are sent to heirs of righteousness.

Nothing can exist unless God creates it. Where else could angels have come from if God didn't create them?

This passage alone is enough to prove that Satan was not created angel (spirit messenger) of God, because throughout Scripture we find the angels (spirit messengers) of God always do His good pleasure according to whatever God commands. It is only by clinging to folklore and fable of Old that man imagines Satan was created a good angel of God and became evil through disobeying His commands.

Psalm 103:19-21 (KJV) The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.

This is referring to the angels that didn't rebel. In no way, shape or form does this passage say that none of the angels ever rebelled.

You need for Satan to have been created a good angel of God who became evil through disobedience before God created heaven and earth and ALL that in them is, but you cannot prove what you assume, but still cling to folklore and fable rather than believing that which comes from the Word and is not being read into the Word.

I have proven it many times, but you are too stubborn and prideful to accept the truth. I show you a verse that says EVERYTHING that God created was very good (Genesis 1:31), but instead of accepting that and adjusting your understanding of Satan and demons accordingly, you resort to denying that Satan and demons were created. That can't be taken seriously! They have not existed eternally. They are not God. They can only exist if God created them.

In truth I believe the following well defines what motivates you and wpm being filled with pride and arrogance:

Definition of Trolling in Forums​

In online communities, trolling refers to the act of intentionally posting inflammatory, or offensive messages in a forum or other online space to provoke emotional reactions, disrupt discussions, or manipulate others. The goal is often to stir up arguments, derail conversations, or cause annoyance, sometimes for amusement, to harass, or to achieve a specific disruptive outcome.

You are offended by the truth and mistake it for trolling. You don't know the difference between confidence and arrogance just like you don't know the difference between physical and spiritual darkness. Look at your own pride and arrogance. Despite WPM and I showing you the truth, your extreme pride prevents you from acknowledging our arguments. Instead of acknowledging that Satan and demons are created beings and, therefore, must have been created to be very good just like EVERYTHING God created was very good (Genesis 1:31), your pride won't allow you to acknowledge that and you resort to making up wild theories to support your view instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bible NEVER speaks of angels of God as fallen! That is read into the Bible but cannot be proven FROM the Bible.

That is absolutely false. The following verses are in the Bible and they explicitly refer to fallen angels of God.

Jude 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

We can know that Peter was talking about angels and not human beings there because of what he wrote shortly after that.

2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

Can you see here how Peter differentiated between angels and men? He said angels are "greater in power and might" than men and, unlike men, would not make accusations against dignitaries before the Lord. How do you reconcile this with your understanding that angels are not created personal spirit beings? Peter is clearly not referring to angels as human beings in 2 Peter 2:11, so how do you interpret that verse? And why would he refer to non-human beings as angels in verse 11, but not verse 4?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is an example of how you often troll the forums. TS never said Cain is the devil that is you saying it!

I showed what he said! If that's not what he was saying, then he needs to learn how to communicate more clearly! I don't troll. I expose people like you and him as the false teachers that you are.

He said "Cain, a MAN, with the spirit of disobedience"! That is NOT asserting that Cain is THE DEVIL, that is you changing (trolling) what he actually said.

I'm changing nothing! You can say all you want about me supposedly trolling, but you need to repent of your lying. He asked "Who was a murderer and liar from the beginning?" while referencing John 8:44 and we all know that the verse says the devil was a murderer and liar from the beginning. So, that means his question is basically: who is the devil? And his answer to that question was "Cain, a man, with the spirit of disobedience". So, how do you think that I'm not supposed to see him as saying that the devil was Cain when he asked who the devil was and then said it was Cain? If he didn't explain his beliefs clearly there, don't blame me for that!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Cain proved he was of the spirit of the murderer and liar from the beginning. Yes, it is the spirit he was born with because he was no longer of the Spirit of Christ that created mankind.

When exactly did you decide to believe that Satan is not a created personal spirit being, but is rather the spirit of man, as TS believes? It must have been fairly recently. When I talked to you about this before, you acknowledged that Satan, demons and angels are spirit beings who exist separately from human beings and can interact with human beings.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bible does not speak of fallen angels! That opinion must be read into the Bible because it does not come from the Bible. It was not angels of God that were cast out of heaven by Michael and His angels. It was angels that are demonic spirit messengers of the dragon that were cast down to the earth.

Revelation 12:9 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

You seem to contradict yourself sometimes. In other posts you seem to deny the existence of "demonic spirit messengers" because you have denied the existence of personal created spirit beings. What do you actually believe? Do you believe those "demonic spirit messengers" are separate spirit beings from human beings? If so, do you not believe they were created by God? If not, then how do you think they came into existence? Only God has always existed, so you can't claim that they have always existed. They had to have been created.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've already addressed 2 Pe 2:4 & Jude 1:6! The entire chapter in both books is about human beings who were sons of God in the days before and during the flood.

The entire chapter of 2 Peter 2 is definitely not only about human beings.

2 Peter 2:9 — 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

Peter clearly differentiates between human beings and angels in this passage. He notes that angels are "greater in power and might" than human beings and that wold not "bring a reviling accusation against dignitaries before the Lord as the human beings he talked about did. Since he clearly referred to angels, and not human beings, in verse 11, there's no reason to think he didn't refer to angels in verse 4 as well. He used the Greek word "angelos" purposely in that chapter to differentiate between angels and human beings.

 

[Gray_Joy]

Old Testament is effectively Judaism and Christianity and Judasm do not mix.

Jesus was a Jew.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus was a Jew.

Jesus explained the issues with mixing Judaism and Christianity, even though the New Covenant was not in effect yet.

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.” Matthew 9:16-17

 

[Gray_Joy]

Jesus explained the issues with mixing Judaism and Christianity, even though the New Covenant was not in effect yet.

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.” Matthew 9:16-17

Please share in contemporary terms what are you intending to communicate there.

 

[Grailhunter]

Please share in contemporary terms what are you intending to communicate there.

I said it to begin with......
You cannot mix Judaism and Christianity.
Christian cannot sell their daughters as sex slaves.....concubines.
We do not buy our wives or have multiple wives.
We do not sacrifice animals.
Our holy day is the Lord's Day on Sunday, not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath Day.
The 613 Mosaic Laws do not pertain to us.

 

[Gray_Joy]

I said it to begin with......
You cannot mix Judaism and Christianity.
Christian cannot sell their daughters as sex slaves.....concubines.
We do not buy our wives or have multiple wives.
We do not sacrifice animals.
Our holy day is the Lord's Day on Sunday, not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath Day.
The 613 Mosaic Laws do not pertain to us.

Yes,I did read that of course.

The Matthew 9 verse sounds like it would be disputing the rise of a faith practice labeled Christianity.
The new wine,word,being put into old wine skins,i.e. the Tanakh.

When Yeshua would be the Messiah of prophecy in the Tanakh arrived.

The first followers of the way of Yeshua,Jesus,were Jews.