Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[William Barton]

planet

When do you believe that Satan was created in relation to when the earth was created? Do you believe he was created before God started creating the earth or while God was creating the earth?

Tell me why you think Satan will be eternally tormented if all he does is what God created him to do? Why would he be punished for fulfilling God's purpose for him?

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

No, it is YOU who is being deceived by your own false doctrine.

It is YOU who are forcing church tradition and human imagination into the Word of God instead of letting Scripture interpret Scripture. Just because Job 38 speaks about creation does not automatically mean “morning stars” are angelic beings before Adam. That pathetic assumption comes from Sunday school theology, not from the clear testimony of God’s Word. Here is your biblical lesson:

Who does Scripture identify as the Morning Star? Jesus Christ.

Revelation 22:16
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And who receives His nature and kingdom? His saints. Not angels!

Rev 2:26-29
(26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
(27) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
(28) And I will give him the morning star.
(29) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

See? Christ gives the morning star to those who overcome. Not pre-adam angels as you think! Hello?? The faithful people of God are repeatedly represented as stars, lights, and heavenly bodies because they bear His glory and truth in the kingdom of heaven. They are the messengers (angels). Selah!

The “morning stars” in Job 38:7 rejoicing over the cornerstone points to the spiritual foundation and congregation of God’s kingdom, not some mythical pre-Adamic race of celestial creatures invented by speculative theology based on coloring papers your Sunday School teacher gave you to draw on. The cornerstone throughout Scripture points to Christ and His spiritual house, which is the spiritual congregation of Israel where all morning stars (chosen elect from the Old and New Testament) are found at, not to created celestial beings dancing in outer space over Earth without form and void. Do you realize that God and His Kingdom, where the true cornerstone sits, transcends time? He and His morning stars as eternal - outside of the limitations of past, present and future that govern creation. Selah!

Like you, MANY are so obsessed with proving the existence of pre-human angelic civilizations because they need Satan to fit into their tradition and interpretation. But Scripture never says Satan had to be created before Adam in order to appear in the garden. People are reading assumptions into the text instead of drawing truth out of it. This is why you do not understand exactly what spirit of Satan is. How it begun to exist inside Eve when she lusted after the fruit. Or even what his tail represents in Revelation 12:4 that drew the third part of the stars of heaven. Do you even know what these stars are? What heaven is this? You still have many things to learn.

Beware of those who are always running to Greek philosophy, mystical speculation, and church tradition while neglecting spiritual discernment. They see “stars” or "angels" and immediately imagine celestial beings because their minds are earthly and carnal. But the Bible constantly uses symbolic language for human rulers, messengers, and saints of the congregation, the kingdom of heaven.

Stop forcing your imagination into God’s Word. Let Scripture define Scripture. Christ is the true Morning Star, and His faithful saints shine with Him in His kingdom. Full Stop! Where is your biblical proof of exactly how the morning stars must be your imagination of angels with feathered wings?

Like Christ said... "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches". Spiritual discernment by the Spirit of God through the Word of God.

@rwb

IMO "morning star" (Greek φωσφορος) is the bright planet Venus. We call it a "planet" (Latin planeta = "wandering star") since it moves in the sky (true stars do not move).

Jesus is called "morning star" in Revelation 22:16. We have a similar idiom in English, "you light up my life."

Satan goes way back, before the "heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). We all have more than one name, typically first name, middle name, last name. Similarly Satan has multiple names. One webpage lists the following:

o Devil
o Lucifer
o Tempter
o Ruler of Demons
o Ancient Serpent
o Beelzebub
o Accuser
o Deceiver
o Evil one
o Belial
o Dragon
o Prince of Power of the Air
o Adversary
o Father of Lies

 

[William Barton]

Christianity is Middle Eastern. Jesus was born in the ancient city of Bethlehem, in fulfilment of Micah 5:2.

 

[rwb]

When do you believe that Satan was created in relation to when the earth was created? Do you believe he was created before God started creating the earth or while God was creating the earth?

How is spirit defined? Breath, breathe, current of air, wind, mind/thought. Living physical creatures have a spirit, the spirit within is of good and or the spirit of evil without the spirit itself having flesh and bone and can only be manifested when living within physical creatures.

The Bible gives us no indication that Satan was created a personal spirit being. It speaks only of the earth being without form and darkness that was upon the face of the deep. Darkness is to be without light, and is a metaphor for evil, [figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness:—dark(-ness), night, obscurity.]

Even when speaking of the serpent (Satan/devil/adversary etc.) that existed at creation, the Bible tells us only that "the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made", without saying exactly when this whisperer, prognosticator, and enchanter became influencer over all evil and death that would be called "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

As I have now repeatedly said, God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." In the beginning there was only darkness, darkness that God says He created, darkness that was when God spoke and His light divided the darkness from the light, but God did not completely obliterate the darkness. This was BEFORE God created the sun, moon and stars to give daylight and night upon the whole earth. We get a sense of what this darkness was like through the words God spoke to Moses, "the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt."

God never explicitly speaks of creating spirit beings. He tells us simply that there is spirit of both light and spirit of darkness. We read only that every living breathing creature upon the earth has both physical body and spirit, the two together called souls. But of His angels (messengers), Gods spirits, "ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation." God doesn't say angels (spirit messengers) were created. Only that spirits are sent to heirs of righteousness.

This passage alone is enough to prove that Satan was not created angel (spirit messenger) of God, because throughout Scripture we find the angels (spirit messengers) of God always do His good pleasure according to whatever God commands. It is only by clinging to folklore and fable of Old that man imagines Satan was created a good angel of God and became evil through disobeying His commands.

Psalm 103:19-21 (KJV) The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.

You need for Satan to have been created a good angel of God who became evil through disobedience before God created heaven and earth and ALL that in them is, but you cannot prove what you assume, but still cling to folklore and fable rather than believing that which comes from the Word and is not being read into the Word.

In truth I believe the following well defines what motivates you and wpm being filled with pride and arrogance:

Definition of Trolling in Forums​

In online communities, trolling refers to the act of intentionally posting inflammatory, or offensive messages in a forum or other online space to provoke emotional reactions, disrupt discussions, or manipulate others. The goal is often to stir up arguments, derail conversations, or cause annoyance, sometimes for amusement, to harass, or to achieve a specific disruptive outcome.

​

 

[Grailhunter]

Christianity is Middle Eastern. Jesus was born in the ancient city of Bethlehem, in fulfilment of Micah 5:2.

OK....so?
Are you talking to me or is this site doing strange things again.

 

[rwb]

The Old Testament never defines Satan as a devil.
In the Old Testament, Satan is mostly mentioned in Job were he enters the Holy Court of Yahweh and seems to be in good standing with Yahweh. And Satan's "job" seems to be to assess righteousness. From there some Christians read the devil into the Old Testament.

How did Satan/spirit enter the holy court of God with the sons of God/humans? Why are you assuming "present themselves before the LORD" means entering the Holy Court standing with God?

Job 1:6 (KJV) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

And Christians do not like unanswered questions, but there are some unanswered questions.
1. We do not know the details of the disagreement that lead to the fall of a third of the Angels.
2. We do not know the details of the battle between Yahweh and corrupt Angels.
3. We do not know when it happened.

How can we know details of the fall of angels since Scripture NEVER says that angels of God (spirit messengers) have fallen?

The time between the Testaments was about 400 years and when the storyline picks up in the New Testament Satan is a devil and the enemy of God and us and Hell is the destination for evildoers.

Not sure what point you're making here, because Satan, depicted as a serpent has always, from the beginning of creation been the enemy of God and Christians, through which both sin and death through sin was introduced into creation of mankind.

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

They did use the word Hades (Only in the New Testament) But Hades was a Greek word for a Greek god and the underworld he ruled over. They used the word and changed it definition to an eternal fiery place of punishment.

You're confusing ghenna with hades, both of which are used to describe the end for the dead. One is referring to the second death that is the lake of fire and judgment, and the other referring to the physical grave for all after physical death.

Matthew 5:22 (KJV) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire (γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah).

The New Testament also speaks of tartaróō which is defined (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:—cast down to hell.

2 Peter 2:4 (KJV) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartaroo), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The Greek defines Apollyon as a destroyer (i.e. Satan), a spirit messenger (angel) not a god, a king of the bottomless pit or place of the dead.

Revelation 9:11 (KJV) And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

 

[Grailhunter]

How did Satan/spirit enter the holy court of God with the sons of God/humans? Why are you assuming "present themselves before the LORD" means entering the Holy Court standing with God?

Job 1:6 (KJV) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

I do not understand.....you posted the scripture that explains that.

 

[Grailhunter]

How can we know details of the fall of angels since Scripture NEVER says that angels of God (spirit messengers) have fallen?

I already said we do not know the details.
Do you think you can find scriptures that refer to Angels as "spirit messengers"

 

[rwb]

@TribulationSigns is right, @WPM. No, Cain is not the devil... <smile> ...and I'm, uh, pretty surrrrrre... <chuckles> ...TS is not postulating or asserting that... The origin of evil we cannot know. One thing we do know, because John tells us in John 1:2-3, is that Jesus "was in the beginning with God... and ...all things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made."

Grace and peace to you.

Cain was not the devil per se, but of the spirit of the devil which was from the beginning of creation. I believe that darkness that existed at the beginning is metaphor for evil that existed by God's design. Cain is the foremost example of how the spirit God created in man became like the spirit of evil within that Cain listened to.

Genesis 1:2 (KJV) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Genesis 4:7 (KJV) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Grace and peace to you also.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not sure what point you're making here, because Satan, depicted as a serpent has always, from the beginning of creation been the enemy of God and Christians, through which both sin and death through sin was introduced into creation of mankind.

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I have already pointed out that in the New Testament Satan was understood to be a devil.
Genesis does not define the snake as a devil or Satan.
The Old Testament does not define Satan as a devil.
That is one of the reasons the Jews then and today do not believe in a devil.

 

[Grailhunter]

You're confusing ghenna with hades, both of which are used to describe the end for the dead. One is referring to the second death that is the lake of fire and judgment, and the other referring to the physical grave for all after physical death.

No I am not confusing them. Gehenna was used as an example for Hell....a trash dump that was always burning.
Hades is a Greek god that reign over an underworld of the same name.
New Testament writers took the word Hades and changed it meaning to an eternal fiery place of punishment.
They did this with several words.

 

[rwb]

I already said we do not know the details.
Do you think you can find scriptures that refer to Angels as "spirit messengers"

Angel is defined - a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels (spirit messengers) he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Because the Bible has repeatedly translated spirit as "angel" many ASSUME spirit of evil is akin to fallen angels! That is assuming what cannot be biblically proven.

 

[rwb]

Well I do not agree. But that is OK.
Satan and his fellow angels are fallen angels that were active in biblical times and today.
Not spirits not ghosts....entities.

The Bible NEVER speaks of angels of God as fallen! That is read into the Bible but cannot be proven FROM the Bible.

 

[rwb]

First, he referenced a passage referring to the devil as a murderer and liar from the beginning and then he asked "Who was a murderer and liar from the beginning?". So, he was basically asking who is the devil since it says the devil was a murderer and liar from the beginning. And his answer to that question is "Cain, a man, with the spirit of disobedience". So, he did indeed assert that Cain is the devil. And he also asserted that Eve was the devil. He asserts that the spirit of all people is the devil rather than acknowledging that Satan was a created spirit being who exists separately from human beings. Do you agree with him?

Here is an example of how you often troll the forums. TS never said Cain is the devil that is you saying it! He said "Cain, a MAN, with the spirit of disobedience"! That is NOT asserting that Cain is THE DEVIL, that is you changing (trolling) what he actually said. The spirit in ALL of fallen humankind is of the spirit of evil, and will die with that spirit unless the Spirit of life casts out the spirit of evil and permanently dwells within a man.

Where can we find that Satan was a created spirit being who exists separately from fallen humans? How does Satan exist if not within the hearts and minds of fallen mankind?

 

[Grailhunter]

Angel is defined - a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels (spirit messengers) he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Because the Bible has repeatedly translated spirit as "angel" many ASSUME spirit of evil is akin to fallen angels! That is assuming what cannot be biblically proven.

I know Angels are messengers of God.
That is not the point....Find scriptures that have the words "spirit messengers" that refer to Angels.

You said....Because the Bible has repeatedly translated spirit as "angel" This is false

Angel in Hebrew
Original Word: מֲלְאָךְ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: mal'ak
Pronunciation: mah-lahk
Phonetic Spelling: (mal-awk')
KJV: ambassador, angel, king, messenger
NASB: angel, messengers, messenger, angels, ambassadors, envoys
Word Origin: [from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy]

Angel in Greek
Original Word: ἄγγελος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aggelos
Pronunciation: ANG-gel-os
Phonetic Spelling: (ang'-el-os)
KJV: angel, messenger
Word Origin: [from aggello "to bring tidings" (possibly derived from G71 (ἄγω - brought))]

Do you see the word spirit here.
Yahweh, Yeshua, Holy Spirit, Angels, Devil, Demons....it can be said they are spiritual, that is spiritual beings.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Bible NEVER speaks of angels of God as fallen! That is read into the Bible but cannot be proven FROM the Bible.

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—Jude 1:6

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 2nd Peter 2:4

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18

 

[PinSeeker]

Cain was not the devil per se...

Well, he wasn't. There's no "per se" to it, really. But he was "a devil," in the same sense as Judas was in the words of Jesus. And an "antichrist" as John speaks of them in 1 John 2. As you and I both know, those who are not born again and thus of God are of their father the devil, and their will is to do the devil's will (John 6, 8, and 10).

, but of the spirit of the devil which was from the beginning of creation.

The origin of evil we cannot know; we are not told, and the question is unanswerable for us. We can only know that it is, that there is evil in this fallen world... and that one day it will be no more.

Grace and peace!

 

[rwb]

Yes, he is asserting that. You must not have read what he actually said. Here is what he said:

First, he referenced a passage referring to the devil as a murderer and liar from the beginning and then he asked "Who was a murderer and liar from the beginning?". So, he was basically asking who is the devil since it says the devil was a murderer and liar from the beginning. And his answer to that question is "Cain, a man, with the spirit of disobedience". So, he did indeed assert that Cain is the devil. And he also asserted that Eve was the devil. He asserts that the spirit of all people is the devil rather than acknowledging that Satan was a created spirit being who exists separately from human beings. Do you agree with him?

Cain proved he was of the spirit of the murderer and liar from the beginning. Yes, it is the spirit he was born with because he was no longer of the Spirit of Christ that created mankind. All of mankind from the fall are born with a spirit of sin from the human womb. No longer the likeness and image of the Creator, but born of the image of his earthly father, just as Seth and all humankind is. Adam lost that likeness and image of God when he disobeyed God. That's why God placed cherubim's and a flaming sword in the way of the tree of life so mankind would not be able to freely take of the tree and live forever and bring all of creation to utter ruin through sin. Which is why God sent the flood to destroy the earth and all that He had created to begin again through the line of Noah.

Genesis 5:3 (KJV) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Genesis 3:22-24 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim's, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Prove from the Word of God instead of assuming as you do, that Satan was a created spirit being existing apart from human beings! The only thing created by God that existed before God created man was darkness that was upon the face of the deep. That metaphorically speaks of the existence of evil but nothing about a spirit being.

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 4:24 (KJV) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

 

[rwb]

I do not understand.....you posted the scripture that explains that.

The verse says they presented themselves before the LORD! Nothing about flesh and blood or spirits entering into the court of God. Can you explain how humans and the spirit called Satan together present themselves before the LORD?

 

[Grailhunter]

The verse says they presented themselves before the LORD! Nothing about flesh and blood or spirits entering into the court of God. Can you explain how humans and the spirit called Satan together present themselves before the LORD?

The scripture is very clear.
No one is calling God flesh and blood or Angels flesh and blood or Satan flesh and blood.
All three are beings.

 

[rwb]

I have already pointed out that in the New Testament Satan was understood to be a devil.
Genesis does not define the snake as a devil or Satan.
The Old Testament does not define Satan as a devil.
That is one of the reasons the Jews then and today do not believe in a devil.

Yes, we discover Satan is called by many names including serpent as we compare Scripture from both Old and New.

Revelation 12:9 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Isaiah 27:1 (KJV) In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

The reasons Jews in unbelief always, including today do not believe in a devil is because they have not faith to believe, and deny the Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus.