Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No, it's a term "sons of God" as fallen angels consistently read INTO Scripture by those who are still following the doctrine that some theologians believe originated through the teaching of angels from Enoch. His knowledge of angels is believed to be one of the reasons the early church leaders felt his doctrine was not inspired by God and therefore omitted it as belonging to Holy Writ.
The Old Testament NEVER calls humans "sons of God"????
In the Old Testament, God calls people His “sons” in both singular and plural forms, sometimes collectively for Israel (Exodus 4:22, Hosea 11:1, Jeremiah 31:20), sometimes for individuals (Psalm 82:6), and sometimes in poetic prose or metaphorical ways (Job 38:7; Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7).
- Genesis 6:2–4 – “The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose… There were giants… when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men and they bare children to them”...Interpretation as the godly line of Seth intermarrying with the ungodly line of Cain
- Job 1:6 – “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD…”
Interpretation: poetic prose metaphorically refers to righteous human representatives before God. - Job 2:1 – “Then the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD…” Interpretation again, indicating righteous human beings before God.
- Job 38:7 – “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”
Interpretation: Poetic reference to human beings destined to be light-bearers in creation. - Deuteronomy 32:8 (LXX, DSS) – “He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the sons of God”
Interpretation: Refers to Israel, God’s chosen people. - Exodus 4:22 – “You are my son, my firstborn” (collective for Israel)
- Hosea 11:1 – “When Israel was a child, I loved him… I called him my son”
- Jeremiah 31:20 – “I have loved you with an everlasting love… I have called you my son”
Interpretation: These use the singular “son” for the collective people of God. - Psalm 29:1–2 – “Give unto Yahweh, O you sons of the mighty… worship Yahweh in the beauty of holiness”
Interpretation: Refers to righteous worshipers. - Psalm 82:6 – “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High” (children Hebrew 'bane' same as sons)
Interpretation: Refers to Israelite judges and rulers, not spirit beings. - Hosea 1:10 – “You are my sons and my daughters”
- Isaiah 43:6 – “Everyone who is called by my name… I have called you by name… you are my sons and my daughters”
Interpretation: God’s covenant people.
The context for the story before the flood tells us that in the days of Seth men began to call upon the name of the Lord (Gen 4:25-26}. Since calling upon the name of the Lord assumes faithfulness to God this is how we know "sons of God" is a depiction of holiness to God (as the above OT references show us). The daughters of Cain were driven from the faithful line of the people of God "Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden". (Gen 4:9-16)
Apparently, the line of Cain or "daughters of men" wasn't driven so far from the "sons of God" that they were not able to lust for the daughters of men who did not call upon the name of the Lord, and took them as wives which would have corrupted the holy bloodline if God had not intervened and sent the flood to destroy them all.
Saying "sons of God and daughters of men" does not limit salvation only to the line of Seth or unbelief only to the line of Cain as would be if it were written "sons of Seth and daughters of Cain." As the Bible shows whosoever from among the human race may call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. Man is not eternally saved according to our lineage, but according to FAITH, which is how "sons of God and daughters of men" is to be understood.
Genesis 1:2 (KJV) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Jeremiah 13:16 (KJV) Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.
Jeremiah 23:12 (KJV) Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.
Amos 4:13 (KJV) For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of hosts, is his name.
Judges 9:23 (KJV) Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1 Samuel 16:15 (KJV) And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1 Samuel 16:16 (KJV) Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
1 Samuel 16:23 (KJV) And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
1 Samuel 18:10 (KJV) And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.
1 Samuel 19:9 (KJV) And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.
1 Kings 22:23 (KJV) Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2 Chronicles 18:22 (KJV) Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
The darkness that God created existed when God created heaven and earth and all that is in them. Darkness is defined a metaphor for evil, as well as evening or nighttime. Instead of destroying the darkness completely, God divided the darkness from His light. Though God called the light day and the darkness night, this is not natural light that would come to earth on day four when He created the sun, moon and stars "for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years." When God said, "Let there be light", it was Light emanating from Him, a supernatural display of His glory to give light (spiritual) to the heart of whosoever believes on Him.
God did not completely dispel all darkness, because as history from the beginning of mankind shows us evil that is darkness from God, He would use to test/try the hearts of man. Darkness and evil, as we find in the beginning through the 'serpent', God used to try the hearts of man whom He had created to be His light bearers (in His likeness & image) unto the world. In order for man to have knowledge of both good and evil, man had to first experience these emotions (good & evil) that God had not created within man. With this knowledge man of faith would turn to God, asking to be forgiven, and turn in faith to Him in love for everlasting life.
Isaiah 60:19 (KJV) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
2 Corinthians 4:6 (KJV) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 21:23 (KJV) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
@rwb , I have no dog in this fight, really, but Scripture is clear that angels pre-existed the earth/world. They are created beings ~ by God, of course, as all things are ~ but He made them before the earth... even the universe... was created:
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God..." (these are the angels) "...shouted for joy?" (God Himself, Job 38)
So the angels (not human beings, none of whom had been created yet) pre-existed the universe, else they couldn't have shouted for joy...
"He..." (that's Jesus) "...is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible..." (Colossians 1:15-16)
Heaven certainly pre-exists earth, and everything created in it does, too; I don't think anyone would disagree with that. I hope not anyway... <chuckles>
I agree with you about darkness, and also the sea, if you were to include that, that they are used as symbols... earthly symbols... of evil and judgment and separation from God throughout the Bible. Hell is a place of "outer darkness," as in Matthew 9:12, 22:13, and 25:30, and the "beast (rises) out of the sea" in Revelation 13:1 and "the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them" in Revelation 20:13. But to say that God created evil and evil beings as part of His act of creation is... Hmmm. I mean... just not good. <smile>
We do not... cannot... know the origin of evil. Just that it is. For now. <smile> But one great day... "all sorrow and sighing will flee away" (Isaiah 35:10).
Again, though... no dog in this "fight" for me, really. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
For one who says you have no dog in this fight, you're certainly dogmatic in saying of "morning stars" "(these are the angels)"!
"So the angels (not human beings, none of whom had been created yet) pre-existed the universe, else they couldn't have shouted for joy..."
Man was not yet physically created, I agree. However, in the mind of God all who are ordained to eternal life are known of God before creation. We have to remember that Job is written in poetic prose, metaphorically, describing the things that come from the mind of God. God knew us from before creation, and ordained those He did foreknow, He did predestinate, called, justified and glorified them to be made in the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Just as the angels sing for joy in heaven when one becomes saved, so too, through the work of God at creation, metaphorically speaking there was great joy throughout the heavens, knowing all that has been foreordained by God would come to pass through creation all at last would begin to be fulfilled.
Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Psalm 4:3 (KJV) But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.
John 10:16 (KJV) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:27-30 (KJV) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.
Philippians 4:3 (KJV) And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 20:12 (KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is (the book) of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:27 (KJV) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
When trying to define 'angels', it's important to remember angel is defined messenger, and a messenger translated angel in Scripture can be ministering spirits from God, or they can be spirits called devils/demons/serpent/dragon/great dragon who are of Satan, or 'messenger' translated 'angel' can be human beings, but NEVER has a spirit of God called angel been likened to star/stars.
When we read MESSENGER translated angel it's necessary to consider the context in which it is found. For example, in 2 Pe 2 and Jude 6 when we read of 'angels', the context of these chapters shows us angels of God did not fall and become evil, humans did. Those humans that lived in the days before the flood who were called "sons of God" but through lust and pride fell away from God and are since the flood kept in chains of darkness (metaphorically) to await the Judgment Day. They cannot be fallen angels of God because Scripture shows us that angels of God are ministering spirits sent to minister heirs of salvation.
Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
All that was created in heaven, and earth were created during the six days of creation. Even though the Bible doesn't explicitly say when spirits entered into creation, whatever God created in heaven and earth were created in six days of creation.
Exodus 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Colossians 1:16-17 (KJV) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
As I've told you before, and as a vast majority of Christians understand, that is referring to physical darkness and light.
As for verses like Isaiah 45:7, I have shown you what that verse really is saying before. You seem to think that the Bible was written in King James English, but it was not. Here is a better translation of that verse...
Isaiah 45:7 (NKJV) I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’
Light and darkness are opposites of each other. So, opposites are being contrasted here. The opposite of peace is not evil. Evil is the opposite of good. The opposite of peace is calamity (disaster). God did not create evil. Evil is rebellion against God. He did not create rebellion against Himself! That's insane for anyone to think so. He created beings with the capability to rebel against Him, but that is obviously not His desire or else there is no explanation for why He gets angry when His created beings rebel against Him.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This is foolish to make a blanket statement like this. Jesus Himself was a Jew. The disciples were Jews. Paul was a Jew. The 3,000 people saved on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem were Jews. Many other Jews have been saved as well. Are they all the devil's children?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Can you clear something up for all of us who find you hard to follow sometimes (I know I'm not the only one)? You're kind of all over the place sometimes on the topic of Satan, demons and angels. Do you believe that Satan, demons and angels are created spirit beings who are separate from human beings, but can interact with and influence human beings? Yes or no? If yes, when do you believe they were created in relation to when the earth was created?
Edit: I posted this before reading your post #1127. In that post you said this:
So, you believe that everything that God created was during the six days of creation, including the heavens, the earth, everything on the earth and His angels (ministering spirits). So, with that being the case, why can't the following be talking about angels being present while He was creating the earth when you do believe that He created them while He was creating the earth? In your view couldn't He have created them first before starting to create the earth?rwb said:
Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Do you believe that God created His angels before, during or after what is described here? And when do you believe Satan and demons were created in relation to when God's angels were created with the understanding that you don't believe that Satan and demons are fallen angels?
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You fight against the Word of God! Since I've already given ample verses that speak of God using darkness and evil to accomplish whatsoever He desires, how many verses will it take to stop you from spinning them to fit your unbiblical doctrines?
The verse shows us that all things prosperous and adverse are under the providential control and direction of God. Of light, it is true that God formed it, and that He is the source of true knowledge, happiness, and purity that comes from His Light shining through believers. Of darkness, it is true also that darkness as well as night is created by Him, that He withdraws the light and makes darkness envelop the earth at His command, as well as nighttime to differentiate between sun of daylight and moon and stars of nighttime. Then God created man morally good with the ability to obey God and live forever or freely choose death through disobeying God. Though God created darkness and evil, moral/spiritual darkness and evil emanate from the heart of mankind by choice. Man chooses, but God directs our path, and tests the spirit within man.
Proverbs 16:9 (KJV) A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Proverbs 16:1-2 (KJV) The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Proverbs 19:21 (KJV) There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
Isaiah 46:10-11 (KJV) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
That mankind would desire to be their own master, did not take God by surprise. God knowing man with complete autonomy would never choose to submit to another, not even to the Creator for life everlasting, God, from before creation has an answer for the problem of evil/sin and darkness/death. That's why Christ is said to be the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God uses darkness and evil that man would come to understand good that is of love and evil that is of hate, that man might come to know Him as Savior, turning to Him to once again obtain life forevermore. Man could not know evil and death without experiencing them. But neither could man know God of love and goodness without experiencing what is good. That's why God formed the light and created darkness and evil knowing man would become morally bankrupt of their own free will and in need of The Savior.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. No, I fight against your active imagination the contradicts the Word of God.
No amount of verses that you take out of context, resulting in contradicting many other verses, can convince me to agree with your false doctrines. You continue to try to insist that God created evil and created Satan and demons to be evil despite scripture making it explicitly clear that everything God created was very good (Genesis 1:31). It's clearly not me who is fighting against the Word of God.
So, it seems you are talking about the creation of physical light and darkness here since you're relating it to the sun and moon and stars, right? If so, then why do you not understand that Genesis 1:1-5 is also referring to physical light and darkness?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Prove what you allege with the Word of God because your opinions mean nothing!
Again, all air with no substance!
It's not I saying God takes credit for creating evil. I simply quote the words spoken by God's prophet Isaiah as well as other prophets of God. No matter how many verses shown, you refuse to acknowledge what is actually written and instead try to spin what the prophets say to fit your erroneous doctrines.
If the light that came into the darkness when God said, "Let there be light" refers to physical/natural light, where did the light come from? Since you don't believe the Scriptures that show [that] light emanated from God's glory, so where did that light come from?
Genesis 1:3-5 (KJV) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Again, notice the light that God spoke into the darkness could not have come physically/naturally from the two great lights, sun and moon, because the sun, moon and the stars were not created until the fourth day. And they were created not to shine forth the glory of God when dividing the light from the darkness, but the greater light of the sun to rule the day, and the lesser light of the moon to rule over the night. They were created for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years, instruments to measure the passage of time.
Genesis 1:14-19 (KJV) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
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Because Scripture tells us the angels of God are His ministering spirits sent to minister to heirs of salvation. And it also tells us that Satan was never an angel of God who disobeyed God and became Satan. Because we read that at the beginning of creation Satan is a liar and murderer. No indication that he was ever a good angel of God. The serpent, a symbol of Satan, proves by deceiving Eve that he is indeed a liar and murderer from the beginning of creation just as John has written. Lastly, Scripture is clear everything created in heaven and earth were created in six days of creation and make no mention of creating angels before the creation in six days.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I have been doing that, but you're too stubborn, prideful and unteachable to see what I have shown you from the Word of God. Is Genesis 1:31 not in your copy of the Word of God? Why do you deny that everything God created was very good while claiming that He created evil and created Satan and demons to be evil. Evil is not very good! It is rebellion against God! Hello? You need to take the false doctrinal scales off of your eyes. I also show you verses from the Word of God like Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4 that show that some of the angels are fallen and you just deny what you are being shown. You are not interested in learning anything, so no matter what I do to prove what I allege, you will just deny it and you will also lie that I supposedly haven't even tried to do so, as if my opinions just come out of thin air rather than being based on the Word of God. You can disagree with me all you want, but why do you think it's okay to resort to lying as if I don't back up my opinions with the Word of God? Why do you have to be so incredibly dishonest in these discussions?
Don't change the subject on me and start talking about yourself now. Just focus on addressing my arguments instead of describing yourself.
I quote the same verse to back up my view from a better English translation of the verse. You are so afraid to actually address any challenges to your view. You just reply back with your childish whining and complaining without actually addressing my arguments. Why are you afraid to address what I've said about Isaiah 45:7? Do you not think that opposites are being contrasted in the verse? Light and darkness are opposites, right? What is the opposite of peace? Evil? No. Evil is the opposite of good. The opposite of peace is calamity and that's why many translations translate it that way. Can you please address this like an adult?
LOL. You say so many things that actually apply to yourself. You have no self awareness.
From God! Hello? Why do you make things so complicated?
Look at how things will be when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in....
Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
God Himself provided the light, just as will be the case in the eternal new heavens and new earth.
LOL! See above! When did I say that? Never! The light that emanated from His glory was literal, physical light that penetrated into the literal, physical darkness just as is the case with the sun when it shines into the darkness.
How many times do you have to ask the same question?
As Revelation 21:22 shows, God Himself can provide physical light even without the sun or the moon.
I posted verifiable primary and secondary sources. "People like you" continue to post opinion. End of story.
The Manifestation of the Sons of God
The New Testament boldly refers to the great "manner of love the father has given unto us, that we should be called the sons of God." (I John 3:1) While the emphasis is on God's love, the text pointedly tells us that, as a result of the New Covenant, it is the Christians that are now to be considered "the sons of God."
In the Old Testament, we see that the angels were referred to as "the sons of God." In the book of Job, in a very instructive series of passages, we find "there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them." (Job 1:6). The phrase "sons of God" (B'nai Elohim) is also used in conjunction with the notorious Nephilim account wherein the fallen ones (Nephilim) "came in unto the daughters of men" and mated with human women. In the reference in the book of Job, we also learn that these "sons of God" were present when the LORD created the world.
It is self evident that these fallen angels have forfeited the privilege of being referred to as the sons of God. However, there were many of the angels that did not take part in Lucifer's great rebellion and, as such, must still be considered sons of God. Indeed, in Revelation we see an angel tell John that he is of his "brethren" - an apparent reference to a spiritual kinship that speaks of a familial relationship between the redeemed human "sons of God" and the ancient "sons of God" seen in the angelic host. (Revelation 19:10; 22:9)
In the book of Romans, the Apostle Paul refines our understanding of the qualifications for this blessed position when he states that "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14). It should be readily apparent that the Spirit of God leads all who will follow to the person of JESUS CHRIST. Thus, the identity of the sons of God is relational to the identity and response to the activities of the "Spirit of God."
This is a significant understanding, for in it we can see that God did not sever the sonship of the "angels that kept not their first estate" simply because they sinned in the great angelic revolt. The logic found in the reference in Romans is indicating they lost their prior standing when they refused to allow the Spirit of God to continue to "lead" them.
Throughout the New Testament, we find the concept that the actions and deeds of created beings demonstrate which Spirit their lives are manifesting. The classic example is found in the confrontation between YAHSHUA (Jesus' Hebrew name) and the unregenerate establishment priests commonly referred to as the Pharisees.
In that illustrative account, the Jewish leaders were following a 'Spirit of religion,' and it had led them astray. Seeking to repudiate Christ's emerging position in the LORD's wonderful program for the salvation of Israel, they defensively stated "Abraham is our father." (John 8:39).
This statement was clearly intended to affirm their historical standing as the seed, or children of Abraham. It was to Abraham that many key prophetic promises were made and, using the scriptures, the priesthood sought to claim that their legitimacy was derived from their relationship to Abraham. Although Jesus conceded "I know that ye are Abraham's seed," he contrasted that statement by pointing out that "ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you." (John 8:37)
The Lord then speaks about spiritual parentage as he informs the priests that "I speak that which I have seen with my father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father" (John 8:38). After Jesus firmly implies they cannot be the offspring of Abraham because they were not doing the works of Abraham (John 8:39), the confrontation narrows to the subject of spiritual lineage.
This exchange is one of the most divisive moves in Christ's earthly ministry. In this crucial interaction, Jesus cuts to the heart of the conflict, and the direction that he turns his mission leaves no doubt whatsoever that he considers the Jewish religious establishment to be of the most vile character imaginable.
Jesus bluntly informs the Judean religious leadership that their works manifest whose children they are:
"Ye are of your father the devil. And the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him, when he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44).
Before this fiery denunciation is over, JESUS will have called the priestly leaders liars, murderers, and those that have used their position to lust after their own desires. The stinging repudiation was all the more egregious as the elders were categorically told by Jesus that he is, indeed, deity (John 8:58). The predictable result of this spiritual collision was an attempt at murdering Jesus of Nazareth through stoning.
What is truly amazing in this passage is how deep this truth actually runs. So-called "Christian" interpreters of every stripe have taken this passage and sought to bend it to validate their own perspective. Of course, any perspective apart from the pure truth of God is not their own, for this text itself tells that it is but a manifestation of whose child they are.
The Aryan Nations have tried to turn this passage into some bizarre biological doctrine wherein they claim Jesus was telling us the Jews are physical descendants of the devil - the so called 'serpent seed' doctrine. The Catholics have tried to show this means that God abandoned the Jews and their "church" has replaced Israel in the Lord's great plan.
The Rapture Cult has stated that Christ's program of salvation put the Jews into what they call a "parenthesis" - sort of a theological holding pattern - until all the Gentiles that are scheduled to be saved come to salvation. They then say the "church" gets "raptured" and then the Jews are back on the 'front burner' again in the final "dispensation."
The Preterist Apostasy tells us the devastation of Jerusalem in 70 AD concluded the tribulation, and that Christ has already returned. This blasphemy postulates that the "tribulation" was God was bringing about a final end of the Jewish era, and forcing the Christian church to take a path independent of its predecessor role as a Jewish sect with a post-messianic perspective.
All these doctrinal groups (and many others with variations on a theme) are in a fatal error - and as they continue to cling to their error, they are demonstrating that they are spiritually related to the unregenerate Pharisees. Jesus Christ's word are even more breathtakingly relevant right now than they were then - "He that is of God, heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God" (John 8:47).
...continued...
Indeed, in one of the most ironic role reversals of all time, the overwhelming majority of what passes for Christianity is now manifesting the role of the Pharisees - in that they are refusing to hear the truth that is being told them concerning the Lord's plan for the last days and their immediate future.
As literally thousands of denominational corporations vie for commercial survival utilizing every doctrinal weapon they have to sustain their perceived standing, the truth militates against them. The convoluted mess that organized religion has become is evocative of the ominous verse that speaks of "multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision, for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision" (Joel 3:14).
The Remnant of Israel is just that: a remnant of believers that have followed the LORD's program even as he "confirm[ed] the covenant with many" (Daniel 9:27) just as he was prophesied to do. The Apostle Paul provided a second witness of Christ's epic accomplishment that "the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ..." was indeed fulfilled - thus re-affirming the promises that God made to Israel.
Yet "they are not all Israel which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6). Those that have followed God into the truth of salvation in his only begotten son Jesus Christ are no longer Jews or Gentiles - they are now the sons of God. Those sons are not in a separate construct called the "church" or the "bride" or some other term lifted out of the context of scripture. They are the Remnant of Israel - a spiritual body of believers that "doeth truth [and] cometh to the light, that his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:21).
Ephesians tells us "all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light; for whatsoever doth make manifest is light." (Ephesians 5:13) This profound truth is plainly telling the reader that it is the increasing of the light, manifested in a vessel of honour, that is the catalyst for the spiritual clash that is steadily increasing in severity.
The incredible truth here is that "the sons of God" are seen "in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world...." (Philippians 2:15) As that light shines into the darkness, the darkness comprehends it not; and as the world continues to deteriorate into evil, the "sons of God" continue the process of the externalization of the powerful Spirit of God that is growing in us.
Writing early in the first century, the Apostle Paul brings the study full circle in the book of Romans. In a futurist context, we learn that "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth together in pain until now" (Romans 8:22). This verse poignantly speaks of how all aspects of creation are under the same curse of sin.
Paul also articulates the great hope that at some point this physical bondage will be destroyed. He tells us that before that release occurs, "the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God" (Romans 8:19). This statement is pointing to a time when the "sons of God" will lead the entire creation to a state of release from the spiritual decay that presently plagues the world. This "manifestation" will only occur in its fullness when Jesus Christ returns.
The Preterist pretenders would say this has already occurred, yet it is clear the creation is still in an abominable condition. The Rapturists would say this "manifestation" occurs at the so-called "rapture" - but their twisted version still has a world that "groaneth and travaileth" in the tribulation after they've managed their unscriptural evacuation.
The truth is very straightforward, and in the end times it will occur very much like it did in the time of Christ. As Jesus Christ confronted the corrupted priesthood, they became defensive of their position and standing, and progressively increased their opposition to him. The same thing occurred in the lives of the Apostles as the power of God increased exponentially in the face of the opposition they encountered. Remember, "that which maketh manifest is light." The first century Christians ended up ministering outside of the "church" and, as they began to move supernaturally, and they loved not their lives unto the death.
The Tribulation Saints will do the same. As the Spirit of God grows in us, the darkness reacts to it. It is the light which causes the darkness to manifest itself - even when the vessel that hosts it is posing as a minister of righteousness. The wickedness in Christianity Incorporated will be exposed for all to see.
Believing themselves to be in favor with God, the "Christian" leadership is already manifesting which spirit actually empowers them. That spirit will ultimately drive the corporate church to work within the prevailing political order to facilitate the destruction of those that tell the truth.
As the world deteriorates to unheard of levels of spiritual desolation, the power that works in Jesus Christ as the head of the church will be manifested in the lives of the Remnant, and the world will hate us for it. But Jesus Christ sustains us when he says "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33).
-- brother James
As literally thousands of denominational corporations vie for commercial survival utilizing every doctrinal weapon they have to sustain their perceived standing, the truth militates against them. The convoluted mess that organized religion has become is evocative of the ominous verse that speaks of "multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision, for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision" (Joel 3:14).
The Remnant of Israel is just that: a remnant of believers that have followed the LORD's program even as he "confirm[ed] the covenant with many" (Daniel 9:27) just as he was prophesied to do. The Apostle Paul provided a second witness of Christ's epic accomplishment that "the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ..." was indeed fulfilled - thus re-affirming the promises that God made to Israel.
Yet "they are not all Israel which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6). Those that have followed God into the truth of salvation in his only begotten son Jesus Christ are no longer Jews or Gentiles - they are now the sons of God. Those sons are not in a separate construct called the "church" or the "bride" or some other term lifted out of the context of scripture. They are the Remnant of Israel - a spiritual body of believers that "doeth truth [and] cometh to the light, that his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:21).
Ephesians tells us "all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light; for whatsoever doth make manifest is light." (Ephesians 5:13) This profound truth is plainly telling the reader that it is the increasing of the light, manifested in a vessel of honour, that is the catalyst for the spiritual clash that is steadily increasing in severity.
The incredible truth here is that "the sons of God" are seen "in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world...." (Philippians 2:15) As that light shines into the darkness, the darkness comprehends it not; and as the world continues to deteriorate into evil, the "sons of God" continue the process of the externalization of the powerful Spirit of God that is growing in us.
Writing early in the first century, the Apostle Paul brings the study full circle in the book of Romans. In a futurist context, we learn that "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth together in pain until now" (Romans 8:22). This verse poignantly speaks of how all aspects of creation are under the same curse of sin.
Paul also articulates the great hope that at some point this physical bondage will be destroyed. He tells us that before that release occurs, "the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God" (Romans 8:19). This statement is pointing to a time when the "sons of God" will lead the entire creation to a state of release from the spiritual decay that presently plagues the world. This "manifestation" will only occur in its fullness when Jesus Christ returns.
The Preterist pretenders would say this has already occurred, yet it is clear the creation is still in an abominable condition. The Rapturists would say this "manifestation" occurs at the so-called "rapture" - but their twisted version still has a world that "groaneth and travaileth" in the tribulation after they've managed their unscriptural evacuation.
The truth is very straightforward, and in the end times it will occur very much like it did in the time of Christ. As Jesus Christ confronted the corrupted priesthood, they became defensive of their position and standing, and progressively increased their opposition to him. The same thing occurred in the lives of the Apostles as the power of God increased exponentially in the face of the opposition they encountered. Remember, "that which maketh manifest is light." The first century Christians ended up ministering outside of the "church" and, as they began to move supernaturally, and they loved not their lives unto the death.
The Tribulation Saints will do the same. As the Spirit of God grows in us, the darkness reacts to it. It is the light which causes the darkness to manifest itself - even when the vessel that hosts it is posing as a minister of righteousness. The wickedness in Christianity Incorporated will be exposed for all to see.
Believing themselves to be in favor with God, the "Christian" leadership is already manifesting which spirit actually empowers them. That spirit will ultimately drive the corporate church to work within the prevailing political order to facilitate the destruction of those that tell the truth.
As the world deteriorates to unheard of levels of spiritual desolation, the power that works in Jesus Christ as the head of the church will be manifested in the lives of the Remnant, and the world will hate us for it. But Jesus Christ sustains us when he says "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33).
-- brother James
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