the most awesome utterance goes unnoticed as if of little or no significance viz "fear not little flock for it is your good fortune to be given the kingdom" and how about this for consideration as to what love really is and why "if I love Thee through fear of hell cast me into hell or if I love Thee through a desire for heaven deny me heaven but if I love Thee for thine own sake turn not away from me Thy everlasting love[Sabrina] - twinc
Saved By Fear?
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the most awesome utterance goes unnoticed as if of little or no significance viz "fear not little flock for it is your good fortune to be given the kingdom" and how about this for consideration as to what love really is and why "if I love Thee through fear of hell cast me into hell or if I love Thee through a desire for heaven deny me heaven but if I love Thee for thine own sake turn not away from me Thy everlasting love[Sabrina] - twinc
You use the word 'force' alot when talking about God and Calvinism. I don't believe that is the correct word to use, though it paints a picture in the minds of people that you want painted.
How much say did you have in being born into this life period? Did anyone ask your opinion? Were you able somewhere and somehow to make a voice against you being born? So, were you 'forced' to be born the first time in this life?
Stranger
Why is it, when ever someone glorifies God and Jesus with teh things they are doing in there lives, that teh devil comes in, you know this bit
Joh_10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:
this only deserves one response
Mar_8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
I'm not asking what love really is.
I'm wondering if a person could be saved if they only fear God but still do what He commands, for instance in the book of Mathew.
IOW, it's not a perfect relationship, but it does seem to still be a relationship.
Of course "force" is the right word when it comes to unconditional election.
UE means that we had nothing to do with our salvation. God chose us, we didn't choose Him. So if He chose us, it means we have no free will and it means He forced us to become saved and He forced the unsaved to go to hell with no hope of ever being saved.
A mean God indeed, and an unjust God when the bible teaches me that He's just.
Acts 17:31
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
As to my being born...this is a natural occurrence.
Although God knew me before I was born, I did not have any choice in being born.
My free will to choose God for my salvation came after I was old enough to know God existed and to know whether or not I wanted to serve Him.
We have free will to choose God, He does not force us to love Him.
John 3:16
If they 'only' fear God then no they are not saved.
Salvation involves belief/trust in Jesus and if all they are doing is fearing then there can be no trust.
That said, if that fear causes them to encounter Jesus and to trust/have faith in him then yes they can be saved.
Your querry implies that the person is trying to work/earn there salvation because of there fear.
There is nothing wrong with being fearfull of God, in fact the person who isn't a little bit afraid of God doesn't understand just how terrifying the holiness of God is. We can call him Daddy but that intimate hides the awesomeness of God.
You are mistaken. 'Force' is not the correct word to use. That God chooses us in no way means He forces us. That God has His way...yes. That doesn't mean He forces us. We come to Christ because of our sins and recognition of the truth that Christ is our Saviour. It is in accordance with our will. Not against our will. Your use of the the word 'force' indicates an action against our will. Which is false.
Your being born is a natural occurrence because God set the natural laws in motion. Your being born is known and directed by God as God knows everyone who is born, and knows them before they are born. (Jer. 1:5) (Rom. 9:11) Indeed you didn't have any choice in being born, but God had a decision in you being born. Did God force you to be born? Yes He did. You had no say in the matter. It was His will. Or, are you saying it was not His will that you were born the first time? That something happened outside of God that was out of His control? Like your birth?
He Who knows the very hairs of our head wasn't aware of your birth?
You have no 'free will'. You have a will. Only God has 'free will'.
Stranger
forrestcupp
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I'm going to ignore the Calvinism/Election debate for now, and focus on the OP.
First, it's necessary to understand that there are two different types of fear. One type of fear is terror. It's never from God. God's perfect love always casts it out. The second type of fear is a deep, holy reverence, and respect. It's the respect that comes from the understanding that the Almighty God has the ability to utterly destroy you, but in His perfect self-control, He chooses not to because of His love for you. This kind of fear is healthy and necessary. God is our friend and lover, but at the same time, He demands our utmost respect.
With that in mind, I'd like to direct you to this scripture that I'm surprised no one brought up:
Jude 1:22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
Jude 1:23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
Basically what that says is that people aren't cookie cutter. There isn't one standard, pre-fab way that works to reach every single person. People are different, and it takes different methods to reach different people. Some people need to be loved into the kingdom, and others need to have the hell scared out of them. But even those who need a dose of the fear of God need to be taken to the mercy/compassion part of God. You don't leave people with the fear. You use the fear to help them stop being comfortable where they are, then lead them into the mercy and compassion of God. But it's important to note that some people will be driven away by the fear, and they just need to be loved into the Kingdom. That's why we need to be discerning with how to handle people, and not just jerk them around because we saw something work once before.
First, it's necessary to understand that there are two different types of fear. One type of fear is terror. It's never from God. God's perfect love always casts it out. The second type of fear is a deep, holy reverence, and respect. It's the respect that comes from the understanding that the Almighty God has the ability to utterly destroy you, but in His perfect self-control, He chooses not to because of His love for you. This kind of fear is healthy and necessary. God is our friend and lover, but at the same time, He demands our utmost respect.
With that in mind, I'd like to direct you to this scripture that I'm surprised no one brought up:
Jude 1:22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
Jude 1:23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
Basically what that says is that people aren't cookie cutter. There isn't one standard, pre-fab way that works to reach every single person. People are different, and it takes different methods to reach different people. Some people need to be loved into the kingdom, and others need to have the hell scared out of them. But even those who need a dose of the fear of God need to be taken to the mercy/compassion part of God. You don't leave people with the fear. You use the fear to help them stop being comfortable where they are, then lead them into the mercy and compassion of God. But it's important to note that some people will be driven away by the fear, and they just need to be loved into the Kingdom. That's why we need to be discerning with how to handle people, and not just jerk them around because we saw something work once before.
Good point about salvation and our relationship with God involving trust.
I agree with all you've said.
Even if it starts out with fear, it has to progress to something more.
If God has His way without our free will choice, He is forcing us.
What is difficult to understand about this?
But then you say that we come to Christ in our sin in accordance with OUR will. Which is it? Does God choose us or do we choose God?
You're speaking about God's sovereignty in the second paragraph.
Nothing can happen without God's knowledge and approval. This does not mean that He CAUSES everything to happen.
It's like you said, He created and put certain laws in motion. The world operates on those laws. Every time something about it changes or God changes it, it means a miracle has occurred. God does not cause miracles to happen every moment of the day...the world just operates the way He willed it to back at the beginning. The sperm meets the egg and GG was formed. He knew me before I was born, but He did not cause ME to be born. It's the world's natural law that caused me to be born.
I am confused about free will. I don't understand if you believe we have free will or not because you seem to change depending on what you say.
Adam and Eve had free will.
We have free will. We were made in the image of God and God has free will, and, it was never taken away from man after A and E.
Agreed on everything.
I believe no one brought up Jude because it sounds like maybe you might think we're talking about witnessing and using fear as a tactic.
This is not what this thread is about. It's about the possibility of being saved if we have ONLY fear. I've never considered this.
Jude is talking about being nice to sinners, but admonish those who take a wrong path, and be strong on sin. It sounds like he's talking about witnessing or admonishing sinners.
forrestcupp
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I think Jude applies to both situations. It applies to the person witnessing, and to the person being saved. You can look at that scripture from both perspectives. If you look at it from the perspective of the person being saved, some people need to start with fear, but it shouldn't end there. It should always progress to an understanding of God's love and mercy.
A person's spiritual walk is progressive. You start off as a spiritual baby, but the Lord means for you to grow from that point into a more mature relationship with Him. I'm ok with "seeker sensitive" churches as long they have behind the scenes things, like small groups, to help people mature. If they don't have that, then you just have a megachurch full of people who will always be spiritual babies, and nothing more. Some babies start off only knowing fear, and others start off only knowing God as the good, good Papa, who is full of grace and never disappointed with us. No matter which start someone gets, they eventually need to grow to learn more about the fullness of God.
we have been warned about a false gospel but most arrogantly assume they have the right one, we have also been warned about false prophets and teachers of Christianity itself, the worst ones being ourselves - so it seems to me what we are being or should have taught is that God is showing us what would have resulted if we had freewill - have you really checked it out for yourself - God in His infinite wisdom knew we could not be trusted to breathe without killing ourselves and yet most Christians believe beyond doubt that they breathe - this is intelligent design par excellence by an intelligent designer imho - twinc
Consider this. Will God have His way or will, or not? There is more I want to say but don't want to say it until this is answered. If God does not have His way, whose way or will is more powerful than God's?
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forrestcupp
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Well, consider these scriptures:
1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matthew 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
So we see two things in these scriptures. 1) God wants everyone to come to the knowledge of truth and come to repentance. 2) Many people will not come to the knowledge of truth and come to repentance.
So if you reason that out, there are three possibilities. 1) The Bible isn't true. 2) God wants everyone to be saved, but He's not powerful enough to do it. 3) God wants everyone to be saved, but He has given us a free will to choose for ourselves whether we line up with the will of God or not.
The problem with election and individual predestination is that it says God chooses who will be saved, which implies that there are those whom He didn't choose. But that contradicts the many times when the Bible says that God wants all men (people) to be saved. So what is the solution? Does the Bible contradict itself? Of course not. Any time you see predestination in the Bible, it is never talking about it being on an individual level. It's always speaking in plurality. The answer is in Galatians 3.
Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
The only one predestined is Jesus. And if you look down at verse 29, you'll see the results.
Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Jesus is the only one who has His destination set, and anyone who is in Christ has their destination set, too. It's like a cruise ship that is destined to go to the Bahamas. The ship is the one going to the Bahamas, and anyone who chooses to get on that ship will end up there, too. Predestination isn't an individual, cherry picking thing. It's a "whoever is in Christ" thing. God wants everyone to be saved, and we have a choice of whether to get on board or not.
Whether or not God foreknew who would be saved is a completely different situation. You can know something, but not be involved in making it happen. When my kid was little, he used to put a blanket on his head and walk around the room blindly. I could see him heading straight for the wall, and even yell at him that he was about to bust his head, but it's his choice whether to heed my call or not. If he were to bust his head on the wall when I knew that was going to happen, that is a much different situation than if I were to pick him up and intentionally bust his head against the wall. Just because God knows who will be saved doesn't mean He makes it happen. He wants everyone to be saved, but He gave us a free will to choose for ourselves, rather than programming it into us.
When Jesus talked about the parable of the sower, the sower cast seed everywhere, even in places that he knew it wouldn't grow a hundred-fold. Why is that? It's because He wants everyone to be saved, so He gives everyone a chance. When judgment day comes, no one will be able to say that God didn't invest His seed in them, and they didn't have a chance.
I'm not sure I know what a seeker sensitive church is. A church that caters to any belief system? Here where I live there's only the Catholic church, and yes, you're right, there's no teaching and it's full of immature Christians who don't know their faith at all. This does not mean some of them are not saved. (I'm Protestant now).
I also agree that some look upon God as the good papa, but forget that He is also the God who created all things. A God who loves us and wants us to obey Him as good children should, who helps us along the way by giving us the Holy Spirit, and when we do disappoint, we ask forgiveness and continue on our road.
I find that some believe that they feel behavior is of no consequence since Jesus covers all our sins.
forrestcupp
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A seeker sensitive church is one who is more concerned with getting new people to come than making disciples and helping people to mature. They generally don't teach anything that would make waves, and they're going to have a presentation that draws people in. Personally, I don't identify with that, but I don't have a problem with that, as long as they have things outside of the main service to help people grow.
God made it so that we breathe. This is how He planned our body. God holds everything up, the universe functions because He made it so.
So our body works...what does this have to do with free will?
Free will is our ability to make a moral choice. We can choose to sin or we can choose not to sin. We can choose to follow God or we can choose to follow satan.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
If we're all going to appear before the judgement seat of Christ, it must surely mean that we are all responsible for our actions.
How are we responsible for our actions if we do NOT have free will?
Does God choose sin for me?
Absolutely not.
We are free to choose the good or the bad, and one day we will be held responsible for our choices.
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