Saved By Fear?

[GodsGrace]

A seeker sensitive church is one who is more concerned with getting new people to come than making disciples and helping people to mature. They generally don't teach anything that would make waves, and they're going to have a presentation that draws people in. Personally, I don't identify with that, but I don't have a problem with that, as long as they have things outside of the main service to help people grow.

I understand.
I also don't care for easy believism, or cheap grace, churches.
They teach that we need do nothing after salvation but believe.
This is not what Jesus taught nor is it what Paul taught although some would like to separate the two...Jesus is the Law giver, and Paul is the grace giver. Paul agreed with Jesus in all ways and if he's read correctly, this comes through very easily.

 

[GodsGrace]

Consider this. Will God have His way or will, or not? There is more I want to say but don't want to say it until this is answered. If God does not have His way, whose way or will is more powerful than God's?

Stranger

You're speaking about God's omnipotence.
If God is so powerful, as you say, then please explain why He could not form humans in the manner that He desired?

Did He want free beings that could choose whether or not to love Him, or did He want a world full of robotic creatures that are forced to love Him? Is true love forced, or is it given from a free will?

@forrestcupp mentioned two of my favorite scriptures for the free will of man and the love God has for us:
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
The bible teaches me that God desires that ALL MEN be saved. If it were up to HIM, everyone would be saved --- but He leaves it up to us to decide whether or not we want to love Him. There is no other way to understand those two verses.
Those that believe in Unconditional Election must twist much scripture to make it mean what they want it to mean. This shows me you do not trust the bible and what it says, which is very plain.

Mathew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Jesus desired to gather those in Jerusalem to Himself as a hen gathers her chicks, but they were NOT WILLING. They were not, of their own free WILL desirous of going to Jesus.
If God desires all to be saved, why did Jesus not gather Jerusalem to Himself?
Is Jesus a mean God?
Does He not care for His creation?
Does He not love man?

There is no scripture that states that God chose persons on an individual basis.
When the bible speaks of election, it is speaking about Israel. God elected Israel to be the revelation for the salvation of the world.

 

[twinc]

God made it so that we breathe. This is how He planned our body. God holds everything up, the universe functions because He made it so.

So our body works...what does this have to do with free will?
Free will is our ability to make a moral choice. We can choose to sin or we can choose not to sin. We can choose to follow God or we can choose to follow satan.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

If we're all going to appear before the judgement seat of Christ, it must surely mean that we are all responsible for our actions.
How are we responsible for our actions if we do NOT have free will?
Does God choose sin for me?
Absolutely not.

We are free to choose the good or the bad, and one day we will be held responsible for our choices.

so how did we get here from the awesome utterance not to accept what God says - it is the ego that must have a say or play a part for we refuse to accept even another awesome utterance "in Him we move and live and have our being"- this includes breathing - to breathe for ourselves we have to go to Yoga classes where we are supposed to realise we do not breath for ourselves and if we did we would have been extinct long ago - Yoga like Christianity has also been distorted and mauled by mauled and distorted humans for how could it be otherwise - I am at least heartened to know that you relate free will with choice - so just go ahead and tell me just one of the major choice you made in your life - this is a bit like those who claim inspiration by the Holy Spirit and that the kingdom of heaven is within without really checking - twinc

 

[bbyrd009]

Consider this. Will God have His way or will, or not? There is more I want to say but don't want to say it until this is answered. If God does not have His way, whose way or will is more powerful than God's?

Stranger

interesting to reflect upon God's "sorrows" in this context, i guess. Of course God's will is surely accomplished in the end, too

 

[GodsGrace]

so how did we get here from the awesome utterance not to accept what God says - it is the ego that must have a say or play a part for we refuse to accept even another awesome utterance "in Him we move and live and have our being"- this includes breathing - to breathe for ourselves we have to go to Yoga classes where we are supposed to realise we do not breath for ourselves and if we did we would have been extinct long ago - Yoga like Christianity has also been distorted and mauled by mauled and distorted humans for how could it be otherwise - I am at least heartened to know that you relate free will with choice - so just go ahead and tell me just one of the major choice you made in your life - this is a bit like those who claim inspiration by the Holy Spirit and that the kingdom of heaven is within without really checking - twinc

I'm having a problem following your train of thought.
Please post some scripture to which I could reply.
The above is not clear to me.
P.S. I made a free will choice to follow God.

 

[twinc]

I'm having a problem following your train of thought.
Please post some scripture to which I could reply.
The above is not clear to me.
P.S. I made a free will choice to follow God.

you did no such thing - you only think you did and since you only think you think whereas in fact thoughts occur - why do we think differently - your thoughts are not my thoughts also applies to and by the Holy Spirit - twinc

 

[Stranger]

You're speaking about God's omnipotence.
If God is so powerful, as you say, then please explain why He could not form humans in the manner that He desired?

Did He want free beings that could choose whether or not to love Him, or did He want a world full of robotic creatures that are forced to love Him? Is true love forced, or is it given from a free will?

@forrestcupp mentioned two of my favorite scriptures for the free will of man and the love God has for us:
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
The bible teaches me that God desires that ALL MEN be saved. If it were up to HIM, everyone would be saved --- but He leaves it up to us to decide whether or not we want to love Him. There is no other way to understand those two verses.
Those that believe in Unconditional Election must twist much scripture to make it mean what they want it to mean. This shows me you do not trust the bible and what it says, which is very plain.

Mathew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Jesus desired to gather those in Jerusalem to Himself as a hen gathers her chicks, but they were NOT WILLING. They were not, of their own free WILL desirous of going to Jesus.
If God desires all to be saved, why did Jesus not gather Jerusalem to Himself?
Is Jesus a mean God?
Does He not care for His creation?
Does He not love man?

There is no scripture that states that God chose persons on an individual basis.
When the bible speaks of election, it is speaking about Israel. God elected Israel to be the revelation for the salvation of the world.

God did form humans in the manner that He desired. This is why man is given a will. Not a 'free' will but a will. Though man is created by God in His image, man is still a 'creation' of God, and not God. Neither man or angel can cease to be a creation of God and not God. Though man or angel is created perfect and sinless, he still is not God and thus has the propensity to fall. Which both man and angel did. What was it that Lucifer desired? (Is. 14:14) "...I will be like the most High." Though created perfect, he was not 'like' the most High.

Therefore, the creation of God is always the creation and less than the Creator God. No matter how God made them. No matter how perfect God made them. The Potter is greater than the pottery he creates.

Yes, (1 Tim. 2:4) says, God "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." And yes, (2 Peter 3:9) says, "The Lord...is longsuffering to-us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence."

You mistakenly say that God "leaves it up to us to decide whether or not we want to love Him." Because left to all to make this decision for or against God, all have chosen against God. Some do not choose for and some against. All choose against. So, yes, God would have all men to be saved. But, all men say no. (Pro. 1:24) "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;" (Is. 64:7) "And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee:...."

So...here we are. God leaves it up to mans will to come to Him. Yet all say no. Now what? It is important that you first acknowledge that man 'will' not of his own will come to God. Do you agree?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

you did no such thing - you only think you did and since you only think you think whereas in fact thoughts occur - why do we think differently - your thoughts are not my thoughts also applies to and by the Holy Spirit - twinc

The Holy Spirit only has one thought.

 

[GodsGrace]

God did form humans in the manner that He desired. This is why man is given a will. Not a 'free' will but a will. Though man is created by God in His image, man is still a 'creation' of God, and not God. Neither man or angel can cease to be a creation of God and not God. Though man or angel is created perfect and sinless, he still is not God and thus has the propensity to fall. Which both man and angel did. What was it that Lucifer desired? (Is. 14:14) "...I will be like the most High." Though created perfect, he was not 'like' the most High.

Therefore, the creation of God is always the creation and less than the Creator God. No matter how God made them. No matter how perfect God made them. The Potter is greater than the pottery he creates.

Yes, (1 Tim. 2:4) says, God "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." And yes, (2 Peter 3:9) says, "The Lord...is longsuffering to-us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence."

You mistakenly say that God "leaves it up to us to decide whether or not we want to love Him." Because left to all to make this decision for or against God, all have chosen against God. Some do not choose for and some against. All choose against. So, yes, God would have all men to be saved. But, all men say no. (Pro. 1:24) "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;" (Is. 64:7) "And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee:...."

So...here we are. God leaves it up to mans will to come to Him. Yet all say no. Now what? It is important that you first acknowledge that man 'will' not of his own will come to God. Do you agree?

Stranger

No Stranger, I don't agree.
But I'm on a tablet right now and this will have to wait till my morning.
I just don't understand what you mean by our having a will, but not a free will.
If we have a will it must be free, otherwise we Don't have a will at all.
??

 

[forrestcupp]

God did form humans in the manner that He desired. This is why man is given a will. Not a 'free' will but a will. Though man is created by God in His image, man is still a 'creation' of God, and not God. Neither man or angel can cease to be a creation of God and not God. Though man or angel is created perfect and sinless, he still is not God and thus has the propensity to fall. Which both man and angel did. What was it that Lucifer desired? (Is. 14:14) "...I will be like the most High." Though created perfect, he was not 'like' the most High.

Therefore, the creation of God is always the creation and less than the Creator God. No matter how God made them. No matter how perfect God made them. The Potter is greater than the pottery he creates.

Yes, (1 Tim. 2:4) says, God "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." And yes, (2 Peter 3:9) says, "The Lord...is longsuffering to-us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence."

You mistakenly say that God "leaves it up to us to decide whether or not we want to love Him." Because left to all to make this decision for or against God, all have chosen against God. Some do not choose for and some against. All choose against. So, yes, God would have all men to be saved. But, all men say no. (Pro. 1:24) "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;" (Is. 64:7) "And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee:...."

So...here we are. God leaves it up to mans will to come to Him. Yet all say no. Now what? It is important that you first acknowledge that man 'will' not of his own will come to God. Do you agree?

Stranger

You never answered why it's God's will for all men to be saved, but not all men are going to be saved. The answer to your question is that it's possible for people to change their minds when convinced by being influenced. So while we all start off in sin, we can change our minds and choose to accept Jesus' sacrifice and grace.

 

[mjrhealth]

If God is so powerful, as you say, then please explain why He could not form humans in the manner that He desired?

He did, but He gave us free will, knowing full well what we would do, and so planned the salvation of man before it all started. If that doesnt declare His power than I dont know what does, Of course you could just ask Him to retract His word than we an all this will no longer exist for its His word that holds it all together.

 

[Stranger]

No Stranger, I don't agree.
But I'm on a tablet right now and this will have to wait till my morning.
I just don't understand what you mean by our having a will, but not a free will.
If we have a will it must be free, otherwise we Don't have a will at all.
??

Only God has free will. Man has a will.

God wills with nothing from any outside source pressuring or affecting His will. He wills as He desires. His will is free from any outside influence. Man, however, has many outside influences weighing upon his will, both in the physical and spiritual realm. Man is oft times placed in a position where there is no right answer but he must decide one way or another. He doesn't want to make the decision, but he must. His will is not free. His will is that he was never in this position. But he is and can do nothing about it. He must decide. His will is not free.

A man says I have free will and I will show you. I will jump out of a window in the 20th floor of a 20 story building. OK, jump. But when he jumps, what is his will? He wills that he could get back to that window. But he can't. He doesn't get his will. His will is affected by gravity. And so you don't have a multitude of people jumping out of buildings because gravity will affect that decision. But gravity doesn't affect God's will. He can come and go out that window all day long. His will is free to choose to go out that window if He wants to. Yours is not.

Unless you can control all things that act upon your will, you do not have 'free will'. And only God can do that.

OK, you don't agree that fallen man cannot of his own will, come to God. Understand that your 'will' comes into play but it will only choose to follow God if God works upon your will to do so. If left to yourself, to your own choosing, you will not choose God. Thus God's Spirit must first work upon your will. (John 1:12-13) "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 3:8) "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit."

So even though you will exercise your will, it is only because God has influenced your will to the degree that you will come to Him. And He does that to you, because He has chosen you. (2 Thess. 2:13) "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

God not only chooses you, but He chooses the way by which you will come to Him. You will come to God through the exercise of your will. But later you will see that you chose Him because He first chose you.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

You never answered why it's God's will for all men to be saved, but not all men are going to be saved. The answer to your question is that it's possible for people to change their minds when convinced by being influenced. So while we all start off in sin, we can change our minds and choose to accept Jesus' sacrifice and grace.

(1 Tim. 2:4) speaks to all classes of men, not of every individual man. Prayers are to be made for all classes of men, even the kings in authority. See (1 Tim. 2:1-2). Even though not many of these are saved, (1 Cor. 1:26).

Concerning (2 Peter 3:9), The 'all' here is defined by the 'us-ward'. "...but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence." And who is 'us-ward'? ( 1 Peter 1:1-2) "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers...elect according to the foreknowledge of God...." (2 Peter 1:1) "...to them that have obtained like precious faith with us...."

God is longsuffering in putting up with rebellious man so as to obtain the salvation for all those He so chooses.

Stranger

 

[forrestcupp]

(1 Tim. 2:4) speaks to all classes of men, not of every individual man. Prayers are to be made for all classes of men, even the kings in authority. See (1 Tim. 2:1-2). Even though not many of these are saved, (1 Cor. 1:26).

Concerning (2 Peter 3:9), The 'all' here is defined by the 'us-ward'. "...but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence." And who is 'us-ward'? ( 1 Peter 1:1-2) "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers...elect according to the foreknowledge of God...." (2 Peter 1:1) "...to them that have obtained like precious faith with us...."

God is longsuffering in putting up with rebellious man so as to obtain the salvation for all those He so chooses.

Stranger

Kind of like how I said earlier that every time predestination is mentioned, it's speaking in plurality, and not as individuals?

You're parsing verses to mean what you want them to mean. God wants everyone to be saved. I can't believe that there are individuals out there that God does not want to be saved. If God micromanages everyone's lives and destinies, then why doesn't He just make everyone elect?

 

[Stranger]

Kind of like how I said earlier that every time predestination is mentioned, it's speaking in plurality, and not as individuals?

You're parsing verses to mean what you want them to mean. God wants everyone to be saved. I can't believe that there are individuals out there that God does not want to be saved. If God micromanages everyone's lives and destinies, then why doesn't He just make everyone elect?

Predestination and election are not the same thing. And everyone who is elect of God is done so individually. God knows each person individually and knew them individually before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4-5) (Rom. 8:29-30) Because God knows those who are His, they are elect. He then predestines them to be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ.

Is knowing and keeping track of every hair on your head 'micromanaging'? (Matt. 10:30) I believe so.

You ask why doesn't God make everyone elect? If everyone were elect, there would be no elect. To have an elect, you must have those who are not elect.

You say, you cannot believe it. I suppose it gives a picture of God that you are unwilling to believe. Well, consider this. Both man and angels contain the elect. (1 Tim. 5:21) The elect angels kept their position and did not fall. The elect of man went down in the fall and are brought out or redeemed. Why did God not provide a salvation for the fallen angels? Why did He provide a salvation for fallen man? Because no elect angel fell. But the elect men of God went down in the fall. And God wants them back, and will get them back.

So, when God created each individual angel, as they did not pro-create as man does, God made some elect and some not. Didn't He?

Stranger

 

[forrestcupp]

...
Is knowing and keeping track of every hair on your head 'micromanaging'? (Matt. 10:30) I believe so.

No. You're not listening. Knowing that I have a lot fewer hairs than my son is a lot different than making me have fewer hairs. Micromanaging is causing everything to happen. I know what all of my high school son's classes are, but I didn't choose his schedule for him. I helped by giving him some wisdom, but the choice of what classes he is taking was ultimately up to him.

It's like the example I gave earlier of the difference between knowing my little boy was going to bust his head on the wall, and me picking him up and intentionally busting his head on the wall. There is a huge difference.

You say, you cannot believe it. I suppose it gives a picture of God that you are unwilling to believe. Well, consider this. Both man and angels contain the elect. (1 Tim. 5:21) The elect angels kept their position and did not fall. The elect of man went down in the fall and are brought out or redeemed. Why did God not provide a salvation for the fallen angels? Why did He provide a salvation for fallen man? Because no elect angel fell. But the elect men of God went down in the fall. And God wants them back, and will get them back.

No, I can't believe it because there are too many logic holes, and you're having to skew plain-as-day scriptures to work with it how you want. God wants everyone to be saved. When He sent His only begotten Son, He did it because He loves the whole world. You can't seriously tell me that God can look at individuals and want them to not be saved. It goes against every description of God's character and personality in the Bible.

A few biblical descriptions of God. God is merciful. If He looks at a person and doesn't allow them to have a chance to be saved, that is the opposite of merciful. God is a God of justice. If God judges a person as a sinner, but never gave them any opportunity to get out of that life of sin, yet He chooses other people to have that opportunity, and doesn't judge them by the same standards, how in the world is that just? And where do the scriptures come into play that say that God shows no favoritism, or God is not a respecter of persons? With your version of election and predestination, God absolutely shows favoritism. By what criteria does He pick and choose people? Saul despised followers of Christ and was involved in their persecution and murder. But God transformed him into Paul, one of the greatest apostles. Talk about someone who didn't deserve it. Why do other people deserve it so much less that God doesn't even give them a chance? And if it's about that at all, where does grace come into play?

Your version of election and predestination is so convoluted with contradictions and logic issues that it just doesn't make any sense to me. The way I described it in Post #36 makes a whole lot more sense and it doesn't contradict anything the scriptures say.

 

[Helen]

I'm not sure I know what a seeker sensitive church is.

In our city, it's another name for "Street Friendly", Emergent Church type.

 

[GodsGrace]

In our city, it's another name for "Street Friendly", Emergent Church type.

What I thought. An emergent church is a church that believes anything and is very soft on those walking in so as to not scare them away. Anything goes in the emergent church. VERY street friendly.

I don't have too much of a problem with those that say it's not necessary to obey God but they understand that they do live a life of obedience, but we're getting persons coming out of churches today who say that God accepts them as they are and there's no need to change. This is not the gospel or why Jesus taught that we're to belong to the Kingdom of God. I've heard one poster say that he could sin HABITUALLY and still be saved. It's scary.

 

[Helen]

What I thought. An emergent church is a church that believes anything and is very soft on those walking in so as to not scare them away. Anything goes in the emergent church. VERY street friendly.

I don't have too much of a problem with those that say it's not necessary to obey God but they understand that they do live a life of obedience, but we're getting persons coming out of churches today who say that God accepts them as they are and there's no need to change. This is not the gospel or why Jesus taught that we're to belong to the Kingdom of God. I've heard one poster say that he could sin HABITUALLY and still be saved. It's scary.

Yes, totally agree there...it's what I call 'Grace to the extreme ' it is grace with no accountability. It has given the depth of grace a bad name as it were.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only God has free will. Man has a will.

God wills with nothing from any outside source pressuring or affecting His will. He wills as He desires. His will is free from any outside influence. Man, however, has many outside influences weighing upon his will, both in the physical and spiritual realm. Man is oft times placed in a position where there is no right answer but he must decide one way or another. He doesn't want to make the decision, but he must. His will is not free. His will is that he was never in this position. But he is and can do nothing about it. He must decide. His will is not free.

A man says I have free will and I will show you. I will jump out of a window in the 20th floor of a 20 story building. OK, jump. But when he jumps, what is his will? He wills that he could get back to that window. But he can't. He doesn't get his will. His will is affected by gravity. And so you don't have a multitude of people jumping out of buildings because gravity will affect that decision. But gravity doesn't affect God's will. He can come and go out that window all day long. His will is free to choose to go out that window if He wants to. Yours is not.

Unless you can control all things that act upon your will, you do not have 'free will'. And only God can do that.

OK, you don't agree that fallen man cannot of his own will, come to God. Understand that your 'will' comes into play but it will only choose to follow God if God works upon your will to do so. If left to yourself, to your own choosing, you will not choose God. Thus God's Spirit must first work upon your will. (John 1:12-13) "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 3:8) "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit."

So even though you will exercise your will, it is only because God has influenced your will to the degree that you will come to Him. And He does that to you, because He has chosen you. (2 Thess. 2:13) "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

God not only chooses you, but He chooses the way by which you will come to Him. You will come to God through the exercise of your will. But later you will see that you chose Him because He first chose you.

Stranger

And herein is the problem.
You do not explain free will in the parameters of Christianity.
Free will DOES NOT mean you can jump out of a window if you will it and fly.
If you don't have the meaning of free will, of course you won't agree with it.

Free will merely means the ability to make a moral choice. It's the ability to choose sinning over not sinning, God over satan. Of course this will require outside influences...it requires putting our mind and our soul to work to understand which side of the great spiritual divide we wish to be on. This is ALL free will means.
John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Natural man, flesh, will tend toward sin because his master is satan, once a person is born again, he will tend toward good because his master is God.
Romans 6:6

From the beginning of time God has given us the ability to choose:
Deuteronomy 30:19 admonishes us to choose life when given the choice of life and death.
Joshua 24:15 Joshua tells the people to choose whom they will serve.
their answer? "Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods." It is their CHOICE to serve God or other gods.

In Mark 1:15 Jesus says to "repent and believe in the gospel".
Why is repentance necessary if it will be God who does the choosing?
Why is it necessary to send missionaries to foreign lands if God is going to choose who will be saved?

If Jesus tells us to repent and BELIEVE in the gospel, it means we have the free will choice to do this or He would not have said it.

Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat the fruit. God said He made everything good. Then they CHOSE to eat the forbidden fruit. Please show me WHEN this free will was taken away from them. Scripture please. No stories about angels, fallen angels, fallen man, we all know this and it has nothing to do with free will. The angels also fell due to free will.

The absolutely worst part of Unconditional Election is that it makes God out to be a monster; choosing who will be saved and who will be lost. Thus making Him out to be a God without love for His creation and a God with no justice who does not give persons the opportunity to be saved, but arbitrarily sends them to hell.

This is NOT the God of the bible I read.