Saved By Fear?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
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Rollo Tamasi
Well-Known Member
Hello @GodsGrace.
My feelings are fickle, and totally unreliable, but the love of God, expressed through the death and resurrection of His only begotten Son is absolute and sure. He never fails, and His love endures for ever. He takes the unlovely and saves them by His grace, for it was while we were yet sinners that Christ died for us.
Praise His Holy Name!
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
I'm happy to hear that you believe:
1. You have a free will to choose what you may want to choose.
2. You're not a calvinist.
Rollo Tamasi
Well-Known Member
I didn't think we were discussing will. Of course our will is different from God's will --- we agree on this. What we don't agree on is whether or not the will is free.
There are different explanations of free will. One is the philosophical one which means we do not have free will because even though we would like to fly, we can't. THIS IS NOT the free will that is discussed in the bible. Biblical free will means having the ability to choose whether we are for the good or for the bad, which MORAL choice to we want to make...we do have the free will to choose one or the other. This is all it means when discussing biblical principles.
Re your example above, is it correct? I don't believe so. To will IS to want.
I would WANT to save both children, but I must choose. Choice involves free will.
How could this not be understood?? I've listed so much scripture and some links.
This can be studied online What Is Biblical Free Will? Here's another example:
Scripture generally portrays free creatures as the final explanations of their own behavior, and thus as morally responsible for their own behavior. When it describes any given person making this or that decision or performing this or that action, Scripture assumes that the decision or behavior has thereby been wholly accounted for. In contrast to the traditional blueprint view, in other words, it is not generally assumed that there is, above and beyond this, a supreme divine plan that the deciding agent was secretly following.
Source: What is the biblical basis for "free will"? - Greg Boyd - ReKnew
What kind of God would coerce people to turn to Him, force them to repent, and compel them to believe? That would be an example of God, the bully, who is a monster of partiality. He decrees salvation for the elect and damnation for the unbelievers – but the unbelievers cannot choose to believe because of God’s will that they be damned forever. That is not an example of the God of grace and mercy towards the undeserving.
Source: Salvation by grace but not by force: A person chooses to believe
[Just because we can choose doesn't mean our will is free. It means we have a will. Of course we have a will, and God expects us to use that will. (2 Thess. 2:13) But because it is affected by outside forces, then our will is not free.[/QUOTE]
2 Thess. 2:13 says that God chose us from the beginning FOR SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION, by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Calvinists make this mistake often because they come to scripture with preconceived ideas. God DID provide for salvation from the beginning, Genesis 3:15...He CHOSE the method by which we would be saved, NOT WHO would be saved. God is not a respecter of persons, He has no partiality.
Romans 2:11 If God chose WHO would be saved, He would have to be a partial God. He chooses the method, not the person.
2 Timothy 4:7 Paul says he has fought the good fight, he has finished the course, he has KEPT THE FAITH. HE kept the faith. He willed, in his free will, to keep the faith.
Another poster did not accept
Philemon verse 14...Paul clearly speaks of free will. How do YOU understand that verse?
New American Standard Bible
but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
Another problem with calvinism... the meaning of too many words must be changed in order for verses to fit the ideas in tulip.
Of course God is sovereign and has control over everything. The question becomes does He WANT to have total control over everything? Does He WANT to force us to love Him or would He rather it be freely given?
I like the analogy of the football game. The final outcome is definitely in God's hands. We are going toward something, I don't know what and no one does.
But as the game is played, every player is free to do as he wishes during the game. He could run or not run, he could run slower or faster. It's not easy to understand man's free will and God's sovereignty, but the answer is not to make us become puppets and God the puppet master.
As to Romans 9:20-22
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
There's much to be said here. I don't even have the time right now.
I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know that Romans 9 was written about Israel and not about personal salvation...so why post verses from it as if it were?
Paul was speaking to believers in Rome but divided his discourse into two types of believers, Jew and Gentile. He divedes these two and explains the plan of God to them. This takes place from Romans 9:1 to Romans 11:36. The explanation of Romans in any bible version will explain this.
But Paul was writing when the church age in Acts had already begun. So, everyone is born under the wrath of God. We are all vessels of wrath:
John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
This is also true of those born in the O.T. times.
What Paul is speaking about here goes back to
Jeremiah 18:3-6
3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.
5Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6“Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.
Paul is speaking about Israel in Romans 9:20-22
Paul is asking a question here. What if God...?
Man always finds fault with God...
God has used the Jews as He will, to be the bearers of the Good News as He had promised to Abraham,,,but the message can no longer come from the Jews.
He will make new vessels of honor, the Gentiles, so that God's revelation can go forward. But He will wait with longsuffering for the Jews to once again become vessels of honor...as in 2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
God desires both the Jews and the Gentiles to be saved, and He will bring this about. He desires ALL to be saved.
No!Do you like my kitty kat?
I think he must have killed that poor deer hanging on the wall.
Mean cat!
Rollo Tamasi
Well-Known Member
Shaw.I love kitty kats
I love doberman pinschers too
They're cute when they're LITTLE!
How's this one?
Rollo Tamasi
Well-Known Member
Shaw.
They're cute when they're LITTLE!
How's this one?
He's posing for a spot in a movie
Rollo Tamasi
Well-Known Member
Rollo Tamasi
Well-Known Member
I think I'll buy you one and have it delivered
You'll see, they love kitties if you raise them to love kitties
Think you can handle it?
You'll see, they love kitties if you raise them to love kitties
Think you can handle it?
Rollo Tamasi
Well-Known Member
Oz..Gooday
John 10:30…
It was a common expression then and even today “I and the Father are one.” Of course, translations and into English today, we do lose some of the words that would give us a clearer meaning. As with a lot of verses we tend to take them always literally, word for word, and it’s a mistake. And I’m not talking about those intentionally meant to be poetic of symbolic in nature. Just the everyday lingo.
A close translation of the expression under study here would be ‘I’m much like my Father and we work together’ as in internal and external characteristics and goals… my thoughts (as I also listen to my Father and know was he wants, pretty much and I do it), and even the inflections, voice, words and mannerisms and facial expressions.
It never means that that the son is the same person or spirit. If it did it would not be that cryptic. Scripture would say something like ‘My spirit is the same spirit as my Father.’ It does not, so we cannot wish that it does. No, the Father and Jesus worked very closely together in thought and deed. In fact, I would say his Father was actually speaking to Jesus at the most critical times to the cross.
Remember or look up 1 Corinthians 3:8: Paul was saying that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, “he who plants and he who waters are one” This is all about teamwork. See I’ve found one of few scriptures (see also John 11:52; 17:11,21,22) that supports my thinking. Those who read this verse of John 10:30 just see ‘one spirit’ because their religion and their trinity model of belief programs them to see this only. I call it cherry-picking and blind interpretation.
I hope that helps seeing my view.
Also, I would not place a lot of faith on internet quotes or sites for support. Some are sometime reliable at best.
Oh yeah..the immediate context also supports my interpretation of John 10:30
(Joh 10:25) Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
(Joh 10:26) but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
(Joh 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
(Joh 10:28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one.”
(Joh 10:31) The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
(Joh 10:32) Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
(Joh 10:33) The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” (ALL ESV)
Jesus speaks of the works he is doing for the Father. He wants his audience to know his works are for the Father. Believers would know that this was true. Jesus said all his believers have been chosen/given to him by his Father and now he is 'going to plant them.' Then he accents the fact that he and his Father are working together for the mission of generating believers for eternal life.
Jesus was/is the shepherd and would be the spirit within each believer to eternal life. Just like many today, the Pharisees could not come to grips that Jesus was a crucial part of the plan of salvation as the servant shepherd herding his followers to their final destination.
His Father gave him this work. The Father is not doing this work, Jesus is doing it. The Father was/is the planner and the giver of believers to his son and his son in-turn will see they all get to the sheep station in heaven.
Bless you,
APAK
Gooday again,
Well this is not so straight forward of a question..can be tough to lay down in words
The spirit works in my spirit nature, of Christ, my carnal nature is not always wanting to compy
Gooday again...
When I want to understand a new scripture or the context of a passage of scripture, I speak to the spirit of Christ and truth within my heart.
Since I can usually control my carnal will by my spirit (will) I allow the spirit of Christ to work within me. It works with and in my mind. We are commanded as believers to study scripture diligently, with care and patience. We also need to be in the right mind and setting!
The spirit works in my carnal mind and uses good old logic and reasoning, original language meaning etc, to interpret scripture in the way the spirit wants the outcome, not the outcome that originates from my own selfish theories or my own religious convictions.
This spirit work and outcome can take a second, to many years. I cannot control when I get the ‘light bulb’ effect. Meantime, because I sometimes lack patience, I fall back into my carnal mind and spurt out a near correct answer that is basically useless.
Yes, the spirit actually corrects the context and meaning if I’m willing to listen and be patient. I’m still waiting today on answers to many areas of scripture I cannot completely grasp today.
So, any sudden insights by me or another does not necessarily mean that it is spirit of Christ and Truth sanctioned.
So, when you see an issue believing someone who claims that the spirit is guiding them and their conclusion clearly shows contradictions for whatever reason or area- grammar, historical perspective etc, you know to take it with a grain of salt.
If you are a mature believer, you will tell something is or can be genuine or not. At least you will check it out through prayer and due diligence on your part.
Bless you,
APAK
What lie is it I want you and others to believe? And how did you come to this determination that it is a lie?
Yes, that revelation is found in the Bible. You even gave the verse. (Matt. 16:18) How blind are the blind. You use Scripture to supposedly prove the inadequacy of Scripture.
You continue in your oxymoronic hypocrisy. Rejecting the Bible but all the while quoting from it.
What is the benefit in denying the Bible as the Word of God?
Stranger
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