Saved By Fear?

[GodsGrace]

"God foreknew who would be saved."

"All men can choose to be saved or not"

Ok, I see the difference as to the means by which a soul is saved, but not the end. God determined the method of salvation for those who he knew would choose him to start with. He draws all men to him, they can choose him, but all will not and can't possibly choose God because for that to happen they would actually have to hear the message of salvation to start with. So therefore, you still get to the same exact point, that some are destined to judgement no matter what. If it really was as simple as God just "drawing all men to him", then the new testament because a message of universalism and not a message of salvation by personal faith, by hearing the word. And once again, there is a difference between the fate of a soul being judgement and their fate being the Lake of Fire.

Hi D,
We get to the same point, some are destined to be apart from God forever and some will spend eternity with Him in heaven.

There is a big difference in how we get to that point. A big difference in saying that those who go to hell go there of their own free will, and it's not God who is forcing them to go there because He didn't choose them for heaven. Big difference. In one way God is a loving God and in the other way He is not a loving God at all. So I think we agree, I just don't understand your last sentence too well. I don't know if you care to explain it...

 

[APAK]

I wasn't scolding you!
You don't need to explain yourself. Of course the Holy Spirit helps us in understanding...I'm just saying that we might need some help along the way. I'm not a fan of staying at home, reading the bible, and coming up with my own theories. Those with a sharper brain than I have already have done this. Be it in the early times or now. I think of Thomas Aquinas - scary thinker.

So you don't believe Jesus is God??

GodsGrace:
Just got back from witnessing to a Reformist Jewish lady of about 77 years. Man, she would wanted to know everything and more about the movie I went to..Paul apostle of Jesus. I even gave her my testimony...and yesterday, I did the same witnessing to an older Catholic. He thinks he is not good enough for God...

No I don't believe Jesus was or is God yesterday or today. Two separate spirits....executed God's plan of salvation (logos) for you and me while on earth....

APAK

 

[Jun2u]

It is a fact that I cannot read?

Why jest? Scripture teaches it must be "spiritually discerned!" Isn't this what I've been trying to convey?

 

[aspen]

Why jest? Scripture teaches it must be "spiritually discerned!" Isn't this what I've been trying to convey?

Ah...

Well, we should all be grateful you are here to make sure all exegesis passes muster

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I wasn't scolding you!
You don't need to explain yourself. Of course the Holy Spirit helps us in understanding...I'm just saying that we might need some help along the way. I'm not a fan of staying at home, reading the bible, and coming up with my own theories. Those with a sharper brain than I have already have done this. Be it in the early times or now. I think of Thomas Aquinas - scary thinker.

So you don't believe Jesus is God??

Are you scolding people again?

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you scolding people again?

No sir.
I'm controlling myself!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No sir.
I'm controlling myself!

Is that a cigarette in your left hand?

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace:
Just got back from witnessing to a Reformist Jewish lady of about 77 years. Man, she would wanted to know everything and more about the movie I went to..Paul apostle of Jesus. I even gave her my testimony...and yesterday, I did the same witnessing to an older Catholic. He thinks he is not good enough for God...

No I don't believe Jesus was or is God yesterday or today. Two separate spirits....executed God's plan of salvation (logos) for you and me while on earth....

APAK

That's how Catholics think. The ones that haven't studied their faith.
They think they have to become perfect first and THEN go to God.
I tell them one goes to God first and THEN he becomes perfect.
(perfect the way Jesus meant it)

What do you mean two different spirits?
If Jesus wasn't God, are we worshipping a man?

 

[Jun2u]

Ah...

Well, we should all be grateful you are here to make sure all exegesis passes muster

You are welcome!

 

[GodsGrace]

Is that a cigarette in your left hand?

NO!
I don't smoke.
Should I change my avatar?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

NO!
I don't smoke.
Should I change my avatar?

No
I got nothing against smokers

 

[APAK]

That's how Catholics think. The ones that haven't studied their faith.
They think they have to become perfect first and THEN go to God.
I tell them one goes to God first and THEN he becomes perfect.
(perfect the way Jesus meant it)

What do you mean two different spirits?
If Jesus wasn't God, are we worshipping a man?

No, we are worshipping God only, through the spirit or image of Jesus, inside us. We never worship Jesus, we give him deep respect and honor because he is the son of God and now our Lord and savior. We now have the son of God and now as our Father he wanted this honor given to him, his only son.

So true of what you said about MANY Catholics.

APAK

 

[GodsGrace]

No, we are worshipping God only, through the spirit or image of Jesus, inside us. We never worship Jesus, we give him deep respect and honor because he is the son of God and now our Lord and savior. We now have the son of God and now as our Father he wanted this honor given to him, his only son.

So true of what you said about MANY Catholics.

APAK

I'm sure you're aware that there's another poster here that believes as you do.
I believe in the trinity, otherwise we end up with three gods.
It's impossible for me to think in any other way. I have thought about it.

 

[aspen]

You are welcome!

I accept your apology

 

[Jun2u]

I accept your apology

What apology? I was assenting to your being grateful or is there an inside joke?

 

[APAK]

I'm sure you're aware that there's another poster here that believes as you do.
I believe in the trinity, otherwise we end up with three gods.
It's impossible for me to think in any other way. I have thought about it.

Yes we have one God Almighty and one executor of God's plan of salvation (logos) for the permanent covering of sin, the last Adam, the one and only human born believer of God created by his and our Father of heaven. He never required to be reborn as he was born with the spirit of God already. We became born with the spirit of the Christ through the spirit of God. As the Father is in Jesus we are now in Christ as a true believer.

How do you reconcile that the trinity model of belief does not connote at least two gods....one being Jesus?

You know I've had many, many conversations regarding this model you hold dear. I can recall one candid supporter saying to me these words "I have to believe in the trinity because I cannot believe that even a human born of God could NOT sin, he had to be god" That is a sober and telling statement by an honest person.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Jun2u]

It was by design not to address my response to you only, rather to you and to all those who believe as you. I have a confession to make that is I am not here in these forums to debate philosophically (I’m not that smart) but to witness, (believe it or not), the true Gospel of Salvation as am taught by the Holy Spirit.

So if you refuse to speak to me further yes I will respect that decision, it is your prerogative. Be forewarned, however, that if you are teaching a false gospel, I may correct you with Scripture references to which you are not required to answer of course.

To calvanists, no word means what it means. Speak of not knowing how to read or understanding what is read. Calvinists are the absolute champions of this defect.
ALL does not mean ALL
THE WORLD does not mean THE WORLD
ALL MEN does not mean ALL MEN
EVERYONE does not mean EVERYONE
WHOSOEVER does not mean WHOSOEVER

All the terms above can point only to the true believers. Scripture teaches that Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel.

For example, the word “all” in 1Co 15:22 have two meanings. The first “all” means “each and everyone” but the second “all” cannot mean the same because hell will heavily be populated, therefore the second “all” pertains only to all believers whom Jesus came to save (Matt 1:21).

Another example is Luke 2:1-5. Note the term, “all the world should be taxed” does this mean the countries of the known world then ( like China), or only those countries that Rome conquered at that time period to be taxed only? Can you see the dilemma this would create with the word “all” if not properly understood?

The explanations above is what we call the method of connecting the dots as you will.

I don’t really understand why you keep bringing up Calvin. He is not the authority the Bible is. Besides, and to tell the truth, I have no knowledge of any work he has done. If he and I happen to teach the same Gospel message it is because we read the same Bible and have the same Teacher.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Dcopymope]

Hi D,
We get to the same point, some are destined to be apart from God forever and some will spend eternity with Him in heaven.

There is a big difference in how we get to that point. A big difference in saying that those who go to hell go there of their own free will, and it's not God who is forcing them to go there because He didn't choose them for heaven. Big difference. In one way God is a loving God and in the other way He is not a loving God at all. So I think we agree, I just don't understand your last sentence too well. I don't know if you care to explain it...

The last sentence? Well there are many Christians that do not believe that God will simply toss every single soul in hell just because their sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus, especially knowing that there will be plenty on that day who never heard of Jesus to start with, as it makes God seem the exact opposite of, well, 'fair and balanced'. I know from scripture that the citizens that inhabited Nineveh, Sodom, Gomorrah and the queen of Sheba will be given more leniency than those who rejected Jesus Christ on judgement day.

(Matthew 10:5-15) "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: {6} But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. {7} And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. {8} Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. {9} Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, {10} Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. {11} And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. {12} And when ye come into an house, salute it. {13} And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. {14} And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. {15} Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

(Matthew 12:36-42) "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. {37} For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. {38} ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. {39} But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: {40} For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. {41} The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. {42} The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here."

For us, the record of our sins, or the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" have been blotted out, but this is not so for the world. This record will apparently even include every word ever uttered. But at no point does it state that all those who are to be judged according to their entire life experience are tossed in the fire, but only those whose names are not in the book of life when its all said and done. Those names written in the book get access to the tree of life, and it is this tree that is the key to it all.

(Revelation 20:12-15) "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened (handwriting of ordinances): and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

(Revelation 22:11-15) "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. {12} And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. {13} I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. {14} Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. {15} For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

And to be clear, I haven't seen a shred of evidence in scripture stating the tree of life applies to the "saints", or those of the first Resurrection, the Resurrection that occurs long before a tree of life is even mentioned.


By his stripes we are healed:

(1 Peter 2:24-25) "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. {25} For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

By leaves on a tree we are healed?????:

(Revelation 22:2) "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

 

[mjrhealth]

See, there you go again. You continue your hypocrisy. You have no new revelation from God as you claim. You have to use the Bible to learn about God, Christ, the Church, Israel, last days. etc. etc. Yet your oxmoronic view is that the Bible is not the Word of God.

Why are you worshiping the Bible when you don't believe it is the Word of God? Which version of the Bible do you worship...I mean use?

Still waiting for some of that revelation from God that you get that is outside the Bible.

Stranger

may want to read this couldnt have put it any better

Bible post

Thanks to @"ByGrace"

 

[mjrhealth]

You have no new revelation from God as you claim

Actually you made that claim, not I, but it is there in your bible.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

why ,

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

still today ignored by man, but since you insist.

Eph_1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

I was once taken to Hie crucifixion, and there i found myself, kneeling at His right hand, Him nailed to the cross, Thorns upon His head, He lookes at me with a smile on His face, and said to me" I did this for you David", YEs HE knows my name. So here I have the "revelation" of who Christ is and what HE has done, that stranger is revelation,
again

I was taken up to heaven, Lay before God, I was given an object which I looked at, and I understood what it meant, and So I said to God, I do not want the world all I want is to know you, and HE got up and gave one of the men there an item to give to me, and He said, give Him his testimony.

And so i looked it up in teh"bible" and guess what it was in there , never saw it before,

Joh 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

So there you go now I have a revelation of who God is,

You cant get that from studying, and you must be careful what you do, that you do not do this,

Luk_11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

God never stopped speaking, man stopped listening.