Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

I can say thanks for further confirmation of what I already said. It's quite obvious that Paul is not saying God simply chooses some and passes by others, but that obedience brings about salvation. They obeyed from the heart. The heart that you claim can not choose God. Your whole argument is built on false assumptions not borne out by the very passage you are claiming to get them from.

You are evading my point there. Paul thanked God, in effect praising Him, and gave the credit to God, for their obedience. Refute that if you will, or agree.

You said "They obeyed from the heart. The heart that you claim can not choose God." And that strengthens my argument. It only means that God had touched those hearts unto obedience. For which Paul rightfully thanked God.

Tong
R0389

 

[Renniks]

I never said anything to that effect sir.

Regarding the matter of being born again, since you just repeat saying what you say here, I think we just leave it at that, and agree to disagree on that. That you believe that it is man's choice and so is man's will to be born again or not. That I, on the other hand believe that it is God's choice and so is His will.

Tong
R0387

It's actually both. And to pick only one, you have to pick and choose which verses to believe.

 

[Renniks]

We are talking about the ground not anything else sir. Read Genesis 8:21-22. I quoted it there in my post.

Tong
R0388

What does the ground have to do with this conversation? Spell it out.

 

[Renniks]

You are evading my point there. Paul thanked God, in effect praising Him, and gave the credit to God, for their obedience. Refute that if you will, or agree.

You said "They obeyed from the heart. The heart that you claim can not choose God." And that strengthens my argument. It only means that God had touched those hearts unto obedience. For which Paul rightfully thanked God.

Tong
R0389

Thanking God for something doesn't mean God did everything. We should thank God that we have the ability to work. Does that mean he does all our work for us? We should thank him we have the ability to believe, but that doesn't mean he chooses belief for us.

 

[Tong2020]

He is the sacrificial lamb, slain for our sins. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but Jesus said he was raised up to draw all men to himself. He was not just the sacrifice for some sins but everyones.

Scriptures said of Jesus that He is the "Lamb of God". So I am not trying to say that to you, rather it is scriptures. Don't you know what the scriptures is trying to say to you by that?

Tong
R0390

 

[Tong2020]

What does the ground have to do with this conversation? Spell it out.

I already did that in post #1078. Follow the links down this thread and you will see where this is coming from. But for now, let me just cut and paste it for you.

You argued saying and I quote:

"We are condemned to physical death because of the world now being under the curse."

And in the next post, you supported that by quoting Genesis 3:17-19, speaking of the ground as cursed so that it became the cause of man's physical death.

So, I just pointed out, that even that concerning the ground as cursed, God said in His heart, after the flood, concerning this, "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake". Don't you understand what God meant by that?

Tong
R0391

 

[Tong2020]

Thanking God for something doesn't mean God did everything. We should thank God that we have the ability to work. Does that mean he does all our work for us? We should thank him we have the ability to believe, but that doesn't mean he chooses belief for us.

I did not say that God did everything, did I?

You are still evading. Paul thanked God, in effect praising Him, and gave the credit to God, for their obedience.

Here's the scriptures:

17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Tell me, what did Paul thanked God for according to that passage?

You said "We should thank God that we have the ability to work." I agree. But tell me, why should we thank God for that?

Tong
R0392

 

[Renniks]

Scriptures said of Jesus that He is the "Lamb of God". So I am not trying to say that to you, rather it is scriptures. Don't you know what the scriptures is trying to say to you by that?

Tong
R0390

As I said, Christ is the sacrificial lamb who died once for all. He's the lamb of God because he is the third member of the Trinity.

 

[Renniks]

So, I just pointed out, that even that concerning the ground as cursed, God said in His heart, after the flood, concerning this, "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake". Don't you understand what God meant by that?

That he'll never destroy the Earth by water again, or destroy all life on the Earth.

 

[Renniks]

You said "We should thank God that we have the ability to work." I agree. But tell me, why should we thank God for that?

You're just talking in circles... I already answered.

 

[Tong2020]

As I said, Christ is the sacrificial lamb who died once for all. He's the lamb of God because he is the third member of the Trinity.

How could you not seem to be reading this "Lamb of God"? Haven't you even given thought why scriptures says lamb of God and not something like "lamb of the world" or "lamb of man"?

And where is this coming from, "He's the lamb of God because he is the third member of the Trinity." ? It's the first time I heard this one, as the reason why Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God.

Tong
R0393

 

[Tong2020]

That he'll never destroy the Earth by water again, or destroy all life on the Earth.

Nice try, but no sir.

Genesis 8: 21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
22 “While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
Cold and heat,
Winter and summer,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”

The passage speaks of two things the Lord will not anymore do again. One is, curse the ground, and the other is destroying every living thing. They are not one and the same.

Tong
R0394

 

[Tong2020]

You're just talking in circles... I already answered.

No sir. You have not answered that. How could you when that was the first time I asked the question in the context of your statement there?

You said "We should thank God that we have the ability to work." I asked, why should we thank God for that? It could only be because it is God who gave you the ability. And that goes as well for whatever ability God had given you, even the spiritual ability to see and discern the spiritual things of God. So we see why Paul thanked God that though they were slaves of sin, they obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which they were delivered. God had given them the ability to see and discern the spiritual things of God and believe and obey.

Tong
R0395

 

[Renniks]

How could you not seem to be reading this "Lamb of God"? Haven't you even given thought why scriptures says lamb of God and not something like "lamb of the world" or "lamb of man"?

And where is this coming from, "He's the lamb of God because he is the third member of the Trinity." ? It's the first time I heard this one, as the reason why Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God.

Tong
R0393

Whose lamb would he be but God's? He is God. But he is also our sacrifice for our sins. If you have another opinion please state it instead of beating around the bush.

 

[Renniks]

The passage speaks of two things the Lord will not anymore do again. One is, curse the ground, and the other is destroying every living thing. They are not one and the same.

That's what I just said.

 

[Renniks]

No sir. You have not answered that. How could you when that was the first time I asked the question in the context of your statement there?

You said "We should thank God that we have the ability to work." I asked, why should we thank God for that? It could only be because it is God who gave you the ability. And that goes as well for whatever ability God had given you, even the spiritual ability to see and discern the spiritual things of God. So we see why Paul thanked God that though they were slaves of sin, they obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which they were delivered. God had given them the ability to see and discern the spiritual things of God and believe and obey.

Tong
R0395

Which I already said. God gives abilities and we decide to use them or not.

 

[Tong2020]

That's what I just said.

What you said is different sir. To destroy the earth is very much different from cursing the ground.

Tong
R0396

 

[Tong2020]

Which I already said. God gives abilities and we decide to use them or not.

And it's not like that all men have the ability to see and discern the things of the Spirit of God.

Tong
R0397

 

[Renniks]

And it's not like that all men have the ability to see and discern the things of the Spirit of God.

Tong
R0397

It's exactly like that. We are have Spirits capable of response to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tong2020]

Whose lamb would he be but God's? He is God. But he is also our sacrifice for our sins. If you have another opinion please state it instead of beating around the bush.

Finally. That's right, He is God's lamb, not man's. It is not as if we offered Him as our sacrifice for our sins.

You said "But he is also our sacrifice for our sins." Please show in scriptures, how is that.

Tong
R0398