Saved Or Predestined ???

[Renniks]

Anyone can say that. And while that is all true, those things does not say How He is OUR SACRIFICE for our sins. As I have pointed out, He is the Lamb of God, not man's. I can't imagine how you can say what you say and not know what you say if you don't know HOW.

Tong
R0407

Lol, I could probably write a term paper on it, but I still don't know what aspect you are thinking of. Apparently, you expect me to read your mind.
His blood was our atonement. His resurrection is our life

When Jesus died on the cross, shedding His own blood for our sin, He offered the blood sacrifice once and for all.

 

[Renniks]

So, you believe that all men can discern the things of the Spirit of God? That's what you are saying in your statement "We are have Spirits capable of response to the Holy Spirit. And that is not what scriptures say.

Tong
R0408

Of course they can, IF they respond to his call. Like I said, we already covered this. He convicts all and all who seek him will find him.
My favorite verse on this topic is:"Deep calls to deep
in the roar of your waterfalls;
all your waves and breakers
have swept over me."

Worshiping Him in spirit is man’s spirit responding to the Spirit of God’s calling to the deep.

This beautiful image of being washed beneath the waves of his love is a powerful picture of the way God communicates with man. The depths of his soul speaking to the deepest parts in us- this is what God desires. Jesus said he came to bind up the broken hearted and set the captives free. People are responding from every tongue and Nation, to gather before the throne. The call is universal, but sadly, many choose to remain in chains.

 

[Tong2020]

Lol, I could probably write a term paper on it, but I still don't know what aspect you are thinking of. Apparently, you expect me to read your mind.
His blood was our atonement. His resurrection is our life

When Jesus died on the cross, shedding His own blood for our sin, He offered the blood sacrifice once and for all.

Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God. He is not OUR SACRIFICE, but is God's sacrifice.

Tong
R0409

 

[Tong2020]

Of course they can, IF they respond to his call. Like I said, we already covered this. He convicts all and all who seek him will find him.
My favorite verse on this topic is:"Deep calls to deep
in the roar of your waterfalls;
all your waves and breakers
have swept over me."

Worshiping Him in spirit is man’s spirit responding to the Spirit of God’s calling to the deep.

This beautiful image of being washed beneath the waves of his love is a powerful picture of the way God communicates with man. The depths of his soul speaking to the deepest parts in us- this is what God desires. Jesus said he came to bind up the broken hearted and set the captives free. People are responding from every tongue and Nation, to gather before the throne. The call is universal, but sadly, many choose to remain in chains.

You say "We are have Spirits capable of response to the Holy Spirit."

Scriptures says:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul there speaks of man, the natural man. That he cannot know the things of the Spirit of God, much less then, to respond positively to the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R0410

 

[Renniks]

Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God. He is not OUR SACRIFICE, but is God's sacrifice.

Tong
R0409

That's not what the Book says.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

"he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. ..."

 

[Renniks]

Who is this natural man?
Let us give brief consideration to the material that leads up to 2:14, and Paul’s discussion of the “natural man.”
The apostle sets the philosophy of those who are under the spell of worldly wisdom in stark contrast to the disposition of those who yield to Heaven’s redemptive plan, which culminated in the cross.
The Divine Calling (1:26-31)
The Lord’s call to sinful humanity, as made known through the gospel will not appeal to those who haughtily perceived themselves as wise, mighty, noble, etc. In view of man’s arrogance against the Creator, humility is necessary to becoming a Christian. I can find you verses confirming this if you wish. Paul is contrasting the proud with the humble. He's not claiming one cannot become the other.
"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up."
James 4:10
"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time,"
1st Peter 5:6

You say "We are have Spirits capable of response to the Holy Spirit."

Scriptures says:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul there speaks of man, the natural man. That he cannot know the things of the Spirit of God, much less then, to respond positively to the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R0410

 

[Tong2020]

That's not what the Book says.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

"he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. ..."

The Bible sure does say that Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God.

Tong
R0411

 

[Tong2020]

Who is this natural man?
Let us give brief consideration to the material that leads up to 2:14, and Paul’s discussion of the “natural man.”
The apostle sets the philosophy of those who are under the spell of worldly wisdom in stark contrast to the disposition of those who yield to Heaven’s redemptive plan, which culminated in the cross.
The Divine Calling (1:26-31)
The Lord’s call to sinful humanity, as made known through the gospel will not appeal to those who haughtily perceived themselves as wise, mighty, noble, etc. In view of man’s arrogance against the Creator, humility is necessary to becoming a Christian. I can find you verses confirming this if you wish. Paul is contrasting the proud with the humble. He's not claiming one cannot become the other.
"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up."
James 4:10
"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time,"
1st Peter 5:6

Paul in 1 Cor. 2:14 says of the natural man, that he cannot know the things of the Spirit of God. As to why is that, Paul says because the things of the Spirit of God are spiritually discerned. It is not about disposition of the man, that he can't know the things of the Spirit of God. Apparently, it is about the ability to spiritually discern.

Tong
R0412

 

[Renniks]

The Bible sure does say that Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God.

Tong
R0411

Who does what? Complete the sentence!
He is the lamb, which makes him our sacrifice. Does God need a sacrifice or do we need one?

 

[Renniks]

Paul in 1 Cor. 2:14 says of the natural man, that he cannot know the things of the Spirit of God. As to why is that, Paul says because the things of the Spirit of God are spiritually discerned. It is not about disposition of the man, that he can't know the things of the Spirit of God. Apparently, it is about the ability to spiritually discern.

Tong
R0412

Who is this natural man? We were all him, in fact, why is Paul teaching the Corinthians about how to avoid being the natural man? So that they might have the wisdom to be led by the Spirit and not the flesh. Even as believers, we decide if we will be spiritual or carnal. This isn't even about anyone's inability to receive the Spirit. It's admonition to walk with him. Who is this wisdom revealed to? Those who love him. And love is always a choice.

 

[Behold]

I've been in enough discussions of this type to know either or are able to be sustained by scripture by those so inclined. Predestined for salvation, or able to freely choose to follow Christ.
I think it is up to the individual as to what they feel about their relationship with God. I don't think God is religious. I think he left that up to us to go that way if we choose.

The Theology of the "predestined elect" is evil on many levels.
Of note are, that it teaches that you have no free will to receive Christ, because God is not going to allow you to do it.
And worse, is that this hellish doctrine teaches as truth, that God only intentionally saves some and God CHOOSES others to go and burn in the lake of fire.
Imagine a Theology, believe by millions, taught in Pulpits, taught on "Christian Forums" that is accusing God of, intentionally burning some people, by giving them no chance to "call on the name of Jesus and be saved".

Some theologies are harmful, but this one is so so Satanic, and so obsessively taught. Its a Grace rejecting- Cross offending, theology.

 

[farouk]

I've been in enough discussions of this type to know either or are able to be sustained by scripture by those so inclined. Predestined for salvation, or able to freely choose to follow Christ.
I think it is up to the individual as to what they feel about their relationship with God. I don't think God is religious. I think he left that up to us to go that way if we choose.

Hi; in John 6 both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility are mentioned.

 

[RainAndIceCream]

Hi; in John 6 both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility are mentioned.

This is true. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
God is indeed sovereign. Which is why the question formed in the OP is able to be defended by either side supporting their personal perspective, saved by free choice, or predestined, in God's words.
I think ours is a relationship with the highest. As such, what we know to be true in that union is what we will defend as our truth. It is all there in God's delivery of his message to the world. I think it then becomes a matter of what one feels is their place in his bosom as to which side of the information they will cleave to.
We the human race are in the image and likeness of God, having knowledge of both good and evil we are like unto God, (see Genesis), and as such God tells us, he knew us before the womb. When we are his he knows us.

There is no debate, no question. The discussion, or argument, or debate, as we'd like it to proceed if we arrive at this sort of topic, boils down I think to how personally secure we feel in our belief as to God knowing that personal link to the divine as that intimate individuals pondering and introspection concerning their identity; "I am, Christian".

 

[farouk]

This is true. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
God is indeed sovereign.

@RainAndIceCream Indeed, so. We can combine the emphasis on individual responsibility - such as the preaching of the Apostles in Acts - with acknowledging Divine sovereignty in the working of the gracious Spirit of God in the sinner's heart.

Someone asked C H Spurgeon how to reconcile God's sovereignty and human responsibility. In his inimitable way he replied that he would not like to try to reconcile two friends.

 

[RainAndIceCream]

@RainAndIceCream Indeed, so. We can combine the emphasis on individual responsibility - such as the preaching of the Apostles in Acts - with acknowledging Divine sovereignty in the working of the gracious Spirit of God in the sinner's heart.

Someone asked C H Spurgeon how to reconcile God's sovereignty and human responsibility. In his inimitable way he replied that he would not like to try to reconcile two friends.

Wise man.

 

[kcnalp]

Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God. He is not OUR SACRIFICE, but is God's sacrifice.

Tong
R0409

John 1:29
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[Tong2020]

Who does what? Complete the sentence!
He is the lamb, which makes him our sacrifice. Does God need a sacrifice or do we need one?

Yes, He is the lamb. Whose lamb? God's, not man's.

You asked "Does God need a sacrifice or do we need one?" Jesus is the Lamb of God. That could only denote that He is God's sacrifice. Obviously, the answer to your question is yes.

Tong
R0413

 

[Tong2020]

Who is this natural man? We were all him, in fact, why is Paul teaching the Corinthians about how to avoid being the natural man? So that they might have the wisdom to be led by the Spirit and not the flesh. Even as believers, we decide if we will be spiritual or carnal. This isn't even about anyone's inability to receive the Spirit. It's admonition to walk with him. Who is this wisdom revealed to? Those who love him. And love is always a choice.

You asked "why is Paul teaching the Corinthians about how to avoid being the natural man?" How easily you forget that the Christian is yet in the "body of death", so that he still sin in the flesh. Now, concerning the matter as it seems to be that Paul tells the Christian to "avoid being the natural man" or to put off the old man, is not to mean anything else, but is about knowing who they say they are ~ Christians. Listen to what Paul tells the Christians in this passage, among others:

Ephesians 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

But concerning the unconverted, the pagan, the unbeliever, there is no old man and new man. All they are, are the old man, the natural man, who, according to Paul, cannot know the things of the Spirit of God, because such are spiritually discerned, for which the natural man have no such ability.

You said "This isn't even about anyone's inability to receive the Spirit." Oh it is. Listen to what Jesus said in relation to this:

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Tong
R0414

 

[Tong2020]

We the human race are in the image and likeness of God, having knowledge of both good and evil we are like unto God, (see Genesis), and as such God tells us, he knew us before the womb. When we are his he knows us.

Greetings RainAndIceCream!

Yes, man was created by God in His image. But that lasted only until Adam sinned. Also, man was not created by God with the knowledge of good and evil sir. So, having the knowledge of good and evil does not have anything to do with the image that God created man.

Tong
R0415

 

[Tong2020]

John 1:29
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Tong
R0416