Scriptural proof that Jesus was NOT "fully God"
- Thread starter John Zain
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
In Jeremiah it is God who speaks. In Revelation it is Jesus who speaks as the shaliach of God. Read again what the shaliach means. They fully identify with their sender (higher authority) to the point of figuratively becoming one with Him.
Too late. You already admitted it is God. They are identical in the descriptions. Jesus is God.
Neither. Someone who is free to search for and discover the real meaning of the biblical text.
This is childish.
You need to decide whether you want to cling to an incorrect idea or you want to discover the real meaning. You don't need to be afraid. Search and learn. There is a lot of treasure you can find.
You are not free to re-write the Bible to please you.
Talk about childish, accusing me of being afraid. That is childish.
There is a world of difference between interpreting the text and re-writing it.
Even producing the Greek and Hebrew texts is a very complex task, a fact that most Christians are not aware of.
You are not really interested to understand the text. You only parrot back what you were taught. I speak from my own studies.
So you're basically saying most Christians are ignorant, but you're smart.
I've known hundreds who think they are more qualified to translate Hebrew and Greek than those who gave us our English translations. They are quite consistent, and they don't agree with you. Parrot? You are the childish one here.
I get it. You're smart and brave and we are stupid and cowards.
Let me take a guess here. You also deny the eternal Hell of the NT?
Consistent? Maybe. Can you count how many editions of the Greek text they produced?
... and since they produce *Greek* text they must just about ignore other language translations.
So then, we should throw away our English translations? Don't you think God can speak in English?
Oh, sure. I am simply someone who dared to make that step. There are many others, so it cannot be so hard.
Eternal hell? Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by eternal fire. Does it still burn? Or maybe its memory is eternal.
But one better: the Greek term translated as "eternal" is "aionios" derived from "aiona" meaning "age". Ancient people didn't have a concept of "eternal". So "eternal life" ("soe aionios") literally means "life belonging to the age", which reflects the Jewish belief in the "olam haba" ("the age to come"), that is, the Messianic Kingdom.
The idea of sould going to heaven or hell upon death was adopted from Platonism by the Greek church fathers, just as they adopted other ideas from Zoroastrianism (Satan as anti-God) and from their philosophies.
But I have to finish now because it is very late in Australia... Nite.
Throwing away? No. But you need to be mindful about the textual variants.
Why am I not surprised that you deny eternal punishment? You and I have a different savior.
Matthew 25:41 (ESV)
[sup]41 [/sup]“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
There will be MANY in Hell who don't believe in Hell.
Matthew 25:41 (ESV)
[sup]41 [/sup]“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
There will be MANY in Hell who don't believe in Hell.
You conveniently quote the verse out of context. You should never do that. You imply that disbelief in hell is the ground of one going to hell. Why don't we read it in context? Here it is for you:
Matthew 25:
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'
40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Do you want to belong to the sheep? Do the above. Do charity. Do you? Stop pretending that your belief in hell you will save you.
The above passage is about helping the one in need, not about any kind of belief. It is repeated here:
Revelation 22
11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."
12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.
It looks like belief is not counted, only deeds. You will not even get a pat on your back for believing in hell
Now why not check how you qualify?
Matthew 5:
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
I am neither evil, nor your enemy, yet, you are attacking me and telling me that I will go to hell. It is not for you to decide, and indeed, you should worry about your own fate rather than mine. Tell me honestly, do you fulfil the requirements of v48?
Now that is an outright lie.
Testimony by Apostle Paul...
1Thes 2:14-15
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
(KJV)
Gal 1:13-14
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
(KJV)
The "Jews' religion", i.e., Judaism, is about "traditions", a lot of it devised during the Babylon captivity and espoused through works like the Babylonian Talmud from which the Pharisee traditions of Judaism are mostly based, i.e., mere philosophical Jewish sage writings loosely based on God's Word. Lot of those on that were driven out of early centuries in Europe because of practicing occultism and magic from Cabalistic mysticism and trying to overthrow Christianity. The pagan Kenites of the nations of Canaan even became their scribes (1 Chronicles 2:55). Bondservants of the nations of Canaan were the later Nethinim temple servants which eventually worked their way up as priests by the time of Ezra and Nehemiah. And the Jewish historian Josephus even showed how the office of high priest became corrupted at times after the Babylon captivity of Judah, with some Idumeans of Esau serving as high priest in Jerusalem.
Acts 26:4-7
4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
(KJV)
Huge difference between "the Jews' religion" and God's Holy Writ, which is why the Jews especially sought to kill Apostle Paul after Christ Jesus had converted him on the road to Damascus.
The real statement should be, 'Very few orthodox JEWS are brave enough to leave the sand castle of Judaism's FALSE THEOLOGY of the TRADITIONS OF THE JEWS RELIGION, in order to know The Truth.'
Regarding 1Thes 2:14-15, who are the Jews Paul is talking about? Not the sinful murderous Jews whose hearts were far from God? Does he talk about the covenant people of God in general? Not at all. He talks about those Jews who had the same murderous attitude as those who delivered Jesus to the Romans, not all Jews. Yet, what Paul points out is their deeds were evil, not their understanding of Judaism. In the same way there are many Christians who understand Christian theology well and fight for the faith, but have the very same murderous attitude as those religious leaders in the first century.
Gal 1:13-14 says nothing about Judaism being wrong. Paul simply talks about his pre-conversion life. Jews like Paul remained practising Jews even after accepting Jesus. Gentile converts were not required to convert to the covenant people of God, on them the laws put forward by the Council of Jerusalem applied, plus any other laws as determined by their local synagogues.
Nothing is said about Judaism being wrong in Acts 26:4-7 either. Jesus was teaching nothing, but pure unadulterated Judaism. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were teaching a legalisticly distorted version.
Religious Jews conduct themselves within the bounds of their own everlasting covenant with God. The Jesus presented to them by Christians is incompatible with their covenant. Though their religion went through many changes over the last 2000 years, studying ancient Judaism greatly helps us to understand the Renewed Covenant scriptures.
Oh, and Paul didn't convert to anything. He simply recognised that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. He converted to another sect within Judaism, not to a foreign religion altogether.
The concept of Messiah has absolutely no meaning outside of the context of Judaism. He had to belong to the tribe of Judah, he had to be the son of David, born in Bethlehem and teach righteousness of God, etc. He had to fulfil (ie fully observe) the Torah of God. Make this Messianic belief into another religion and it looses its essence.
Do you ever quote a single verse?
Now ya got it!
But it could actually be 'TRUTH'.
A Denier of Christ's Divinity. Which boils down to being an anti-christ.
JUDE 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
JUDE 1:12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
JUDE 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
Good luck with your denial of Christ's divinity and authority. You have the scriptures that clearly teach WHO is Jesus Christ. Denying His divinity you seal your fate with God.
1JN 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
There can be no salvation for the one who denies Jesus as Christ. The Saviour could only be God come in Flesh for no one else could have lived the perfectly sinless life on this Earth and died for mankinds sins.
JUDE 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
JUDE 1:12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
JUDE 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
Good luck with your denial of Christ's divinity and authority. You have the scriptures that clearly teach WHO is Jesus Christ. Denying His divinity you seal your fate with God.
1JN 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
There can be no salvation for the one who denies Jesus as Christ. The Saviour could only be God come in Flesh for no one else could have lived the perfectly sinless life on this Earth and died for mankinds sins.
Amen!!!
Isaiah 48:16-17 (ESV)
[sup]16 [/sup]And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit. [sup]17 [/sup]Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
Similar threads
