Scriptural proof that Jesus was NOT "fully God"

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belantos

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A Denier of Christ's Divinity. Which boils down to being an anti-christ.




JUDE 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

JUDE 1:12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

JUDE 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.



Good luck with your denial of Christ's divinity and authority. You have the scriptures that clearly teach WHO is Jesus Christ. Denying His divinity you seal your fate with God.


1JN 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


There can be no salvation for the one who denies Jesus as Christ. The Saviour could only be God come in Flesh for no one else could have lived the perfectly sinless life on this Earth and died for mankinds sins.

OK, so I need to address all these one by one.

1. Using external definition. Where do you get the idea that the antichrist is someone who denies the deity of Jesus? Can you quote the scriptures to prove this?


2. Jude 1:3 - the writer mentions "the faith that was once handed down to the saints". This is not the decision handed down by the Council of Nicaea. Also notice that he is talking about "ungodly persons", which means they lived a life of sin.
They
- "turn the grace of our God into licentiousness"
- "deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ" (I am quoting from the NASB).

Ops! Did you notice the mention of two entirely different entities? The first one is not "God the Father" and the second "God the Son", but God and Jesus Christ. This simply means Jesus and God are entirely different entities. Ergo, Jesus is the son of God, not God the Son.

Thank you for the verse, it clearly shows what the faith handed down to the saints was.

What you quoted has no relevance to our discussion. Don't forget, you need to show responsibility when you quote passages that you don't take them out of context and misapply them for the sake of winning an argument.
 

belantos

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Amen!!!
Isaiah 48:16-17 (ESV)
[sup]16 [/sup]And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit. [sup]17 [/sup]Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:

Does anyone check the context before quoting scripture? You should.

The Isaiah passage is like a play-write. There are more than one speakers. In v16 the sent one of God speaks. In v17 God Himself. You are doing injustice to the text when you quote it out of context.


Do you ever quote a single verse?



Now ya got it!




But it could actually be 'TRUTH'.


If I quote a single verse I always check the context so that I don't misrepresent its meaning. Something that you don't seem to do.

Hmmm... Check you attitude.


 

belantos

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Good luck with your denial of Christ's divinity and authority. You have the scriptures that clearly teach WHO is Jesus Christ. Denying His divinity you seal your fate with God.


1JN 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


There can be no salvation for the one who denies Jesus as Christ. The Saviour could only be God come in Flesh for no one else could have lived the perfectly sinless life on this Earth and died for mankinds sins.

Oh, you actually showed me a passage that said it otherwise. Would you care to give me an exposition of John 17:3, please? Who is Jesus addressing and what he says about Him?

Now on to 1John 2:20-22. Where does it say that the antichrist is the one who denies Jesus' divinity? Why are you lying about the meaning of the passage? The person who denies that Jesus is the anointed of God is referred to here as the antichrist (opposer of Christ), not the one who denies his deity. Stop misquoting passages to suit your argument.
 

aspen

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hello belantos,

I have been reading some of your posts, and I am still not sure what you believe about Jesus, but it seems that you have concluded that He is not God. You appear well read in church history, I am wondering when did theologians start falling into heresy by declaring Jesus to be God?
 

belantos

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hello belantos,

I have been reading some of your posts, and I am still not sure what you believe about Jesus, but it seems that you have concluded that He is not God. You appear well read in church history, I am wondering when did theologians start falling into heresy by declaring Jesus to be God?

The apostasy happened in the second century after the Bar Kochba revolt was crushed by the Romans and in the ensuing antisemitism the Gentile churches excommunicated the Jews because of their participation. These Jews most often provided the leadership in those churches (I only call them churches because if I call them synagogues people think I talk about the Jewish synagogues that did not accept Jesus, but these were synagogues, not churches) and interpreted the scriptures for the Gentile membership. However, they were in a very difficult position. If they refused to participate in the revolt they would have been excommunicated from the Jewish community, so they had little choice. Even though they refused to acknowledge Bar Kochba as the Messiah, whom Rabbi Akiba declared as such, they joined the revolt.

After they were kicked out of the churches, the Gentile believers lost the understanding of the Jewish scriptures and in the ensuing antisemitism they reinterpreted them in the light of their own culture and religious background. Hence, they employed Zoroastrianism (Satan as anti-God) and Platonism (dying being a liberation from evil matter, a soul being a separate entity from the body, sould going to heaven or hell upon death, etc). Google for 'Plato virgin mother' (without the single quotes) and read the top article to see if you notice any similarity to the Gentile interpretation of Jesus' birth narrative.

The falling away was so fast that Justin Martyr around the middle of the second century already wrote:

"When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter." [Justin Martyr, First Apology, 21]

But he thought it was the devil's work who came ahead of time to deceive people with a similar belief.


Interestingly, he also protested against the doctrine of going to heaven upon death, as he saw it as the denial of the resurrection:

"I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you. For I choose to follow not men or men s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistae, Meristae,Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him." [Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew, Ch. 80]

Providing it is not fake, we find the very first trinitarian statement from one of the church fathers in the late second century. By that time Christianity was repackaged and was easily marketable to the Greeks due to the all the similarities, whose religions were loaded with virgin-born god-man saviours who saved the world by dying and raising. You can find many books about the subject on Amazon. Sure, they are different from the Jesus idea they developed, just as a Honda car is different from a Ford.

What is striking is the strong protest from the Ebionites when the virginal conception idea was popularised in the second century. And don't forget that according to the church fathers they were those who left Jerusalem before the destruction and went up to Pella, and were led by Jesus' brothers. Then there is the testimony of another, completely independent group on the Gentile side, the very influential sect of the Adoptionists whose doctrine was very similar to that of the Ebionites. The testimony of two independent witnesses against one large witness (the church that went down the Greek path). The Ebionites rejected Paul for the apparent reason that he taught Gentiles utilising ideas they were familiar with, which ended up contributing to the apostasy in the absence of the Jewish interpreters, but both believed that Jesus became the Christ when the Christ Spirit came upon him at baptism and it left him on the cross. "Christ" means "anointed", so Jesus was not "anointed" (ie "christ") until the "anointing" ("christ") Spirit came upon him. And the Spirit left him when he cried out: "Father, Father, why have you forsaken me".

Add to this one of the most widely read document in the early churches, "The Shepherd of Hermas", which is like a novel, but Unitarian in theology. Surprise, surprise...

The Adoptionists existed for a few centuries. The Ebionites were waiting for the return of Christ for a long time, and later on the develop the doctrine of two Messiahs(Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David - meaning after the manner of Joseph - or David) and went back to their own Jewish communities. For this reason it is unclear whether it was really them who came up with the two Messiahs or it originated in Judaism. It teaches that if the Jewish people were worthy, Messiah ben David would come. If they were unworthy, Messiah ben Joseph would come.

Now I don't want to go into who was right and who was wrong, I simply gave you an insight into the struggle of the second century.

So first the falling away took place - the rejection of the Torah of God, the reinterpretation of the Jewish scriptures with foreign ideas, then the virgin birth idea was adopted that gave way to the doctrine of the deity of the Messiah eventually leading to the doctrine of the trinity. While in ancient Judaism there is no sin nature, only lust that can be and shall be overcome (google for Judaism 101 and read the article 'human nature' under Ideas), Christianity developed the idea of the sin nature that could not be overcome, which necessitated the virgin birth leading to the deification of Christ.

Jesus said, he came in his Father's name and they didn't receive him, but another would come in his own name and him they will receive. After the apostasy of the church this contender soon emerged - the idea of the deified Christ who came in his own co-equal and co-eternal name and claimed to be God in the Temple of God. No need to look for another.

Now expect hell fire coming down from Christians. They do that rather than doing their own research.
 

Amazing Grace

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MT 9:4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up and walk'? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . ." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7 And the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.


MT 21:24 Jesus replied, "I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 25 John's baptism--where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?"
They discussed it among themselves and said, "If we say, `From heaven,' he will ask, `Then why didn't you believe him?' 26 But if we say, `From men'--we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet."

MT 21:27 So they answered Jesus, "We don't know."
Then he said, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.


JN 3:31 "The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."


With WHOM does God share His Worship? If you understood this question you would understand why we see the Answer you ask for what scriptures show us that Jesus is God, but you do not know the Father and therefore you do not recognize the Son either. If you understood the significance of many of the things Jesus did you would understand Christs equality with God.


MT 22:44 " `The Lord said to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." `

MT 22:45 If then David calls him `Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.


REV 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."



REV 5:11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they sang:

"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"

REV 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"

REV 5:14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.


 

belantos

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MT 9:4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up and walk'? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . ." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7 And the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.


MT 21:24 Jesus replied, "I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 25 John's baptism--where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?"
They discussed it among themselves and said, "If we say, `From heaven,' he will ask, `Then why didn't you believe him?' 26 But if we say, `From men'--we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet."

MT 21:27 So they answered Jesus, "We don't know."
Then he said, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.


JN 3:31 "The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."


With WHOM does God share His Worship? If you understood this question you would understand why we see the Answer you ask for what scriptures show us that Jesus is God, but you do not know the Father and therefore you do not recognize the Son either. If you understood the significance of many of the things Jesus did you would understand Christs equality with God.


MT 22:44 " `The Lord said to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." `

MT 22:45 If then David calls him `Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.


REV 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."



REV 5:11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they sang:

"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"

REV 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"

REV 5:14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.





Is that all you have found? There is another few hundred verses that you can throw in that seem to teach the deity of the Messiah, but they actually don't.

Did you actually read Matt. 9:8? The audience correctly concluded that God "had given such authority to men".

John 3:31 - have you actually noticed the clear difference the author makes between God and Jesus: "whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him"?

The Greek term translated as "worship" means "paying homage" and can refer to bowing down before a higher authority, either human superiors of God. The term is not exclusively used to describe the worship of God.

The term "elohim" meaning "power" is also used of people, such as Moses, the judges of Israel and of Jewish kings.

On teh other hand, God is referred to as "adonai", while human lords as "adoni" as is quoted in Matt. 22:44. That is, "Adonai said to my adoni..." - the LORD said to my human master. David simply recognised that the Messiah will be his human superior in the Kingdom.

No deity of Jesus in these verses.
 

Duckybill

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Does anyone check the context before quoting scripture? You should.
Of course. The OT clearly confirms that Jesus is God as you already admitted about Jer 17:10:

belantos wrote:
"The Father God"
The Isaiah passage is like a play-write. There are more than one speakers. In v16 the sent one of God speaks. In v17 God Himself. You are doing injustice to the text when you quote it out of context.
You obviously understood the meaning that's why you are denying the meaning. Isaiah is consistent about Jesus/God:

Isaiah 9:6-7 (ESV)
[sup]6 [/sup]For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [sup]7 [/sup]Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

All of which is referring to Jesus/God, Mighty God, Everlasting Father!
If I quote a single verse I always check the context so that I don't misrepresent its meaning. Something that you don't seem to do.

Hmmm... Check you attitude.
So you do the same as you accuse me of doing.

 

belantos

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Of course. The OT clearly confirms that Jesus is God as you already admitted about Jer 17:10:

belantos wrote:
"The Father God"

You obviously understood the meaning that's why you are denying the meaning. Isaiah is consistent about Jesus/God:

Isaiah 9:6-7 (ESV)
[sup]6 [/sup]For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [sup]7 [/sup]Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

All of which is referring to Jesus/God, Mighty God, Everlasting Father!

So you do the same as you accuse me of doing.


Oh, don't you want to quote the whole bible to prove your trinitarian ideas? Because you are right, the trinty is true. But it is only true if you derive your definitions from historical Christianity and read them back into the bible.

But those definitions are not the definitions of the Tanakh. If you define these terms from the Tanakh you arrive to a completely different result. This is why one needs to study ancient Judaism, for the early Christians only had the Tanakh as scriptures for many decades, and were happy to work from them.

Now go back and reread that passage in the light of the Tanakh rather than in the light of your religious tradition. As I noted elsewhere "elohim" is also applied to people. The term "mighty" refers to military might, that is, "mighty god" is a militarily successful Jewish king. "Everlasting"? The ancient people did not have a concept of infinity. They thought of "ages". One age ended and gave way to another. The Jewish hope, "olam haba" (the age to come) is the Kingdom. And the term "father" is also applied in the spiritual sense, just as Abraham was told he would be the "father of many nations". This clearly did not mean only his physical descendants.

Hence the Messiah, teh Second Man, has the above titles that names describe his various characters, but these do not make him out to be God.

Anything else I can help you with? Trust me, the trinity is totally absent from the scriptures. It is a late invention.
 

Duckybill

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Oh, don't you want to quote the whole bible to prove your trinitarian ideas? Because you are right, the trinty is true. But it is only true if you derive your definitions from historical Christianity and read them back into the bible.
By "historical Christianity" you must be referring to our English Bibles.

John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
But those definitions are not the definitions of the Tanakh. If you define these terms from the Tanakh you arrive to a completely different result. This is why one needs to study ancient Judaism, for the early Christians only had the Tanakh as scriptures for many decades, and were happy to work from them.
Your basic arguments are nearly always, "I know more than those who wrote our English Bibles". That's pretty much all you offer.
Now go back and reread that passage in the light of the Tanakh rather than in the light of your religious tradition. As I noted elsewhere "elohim" is also applied to people. The term "mighty" refers to military might, that is, "mighty god" is a militarily successful Jewish king. "Everlasting"? The ancient people did not have a concept of infinity. They thought of "ages". One age ended and gave way to another. The Jewish hope, "olam haba" (the age to come) is the Kingdom. And the term "father" is also applied in the spiritual sense, just as Abraham was told he would be the "father of many nations". This clearly did not mean only his physical descendants.

Hence the Messiah, teh Second Man, has the above titles that names describe his various characters, but these do not make him out to be God.

Anything else I can help you with? Trust me, the trinity is totally absent from the scriptures. It is a late invention.
See above. Satan has deceived you and has now sent you to try to deceive others. You struggle severely to understand simple English Bible statements. You continuously change the clear English texts we have and offer YOUR version. Satan has stolen the one true Savior, Jesus/God from you.

Matthew 28:19 (ESV)
[sup]19 [/sup]Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

belantos

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By "historical Christianity" you must be referring to our English Bibles.

John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Your basic arguments are nearly always, "I know more than those who wrote our English Bibles". That's pretty much all you offer.

See above. Satan has deceived you and has now sent you to try to deceive others. You struggle severely to understand simple English Bible statements. You continuously change the clear English texts we have and offer YOUR version. Satan has stolen the one true Savior, Jesus/God from you.

Matthew 28:19 (ESV)
[sup]19 [/sup]Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


I thought you know the difference between bible translations and historical Christianity.

Do you actually understand what John talks about? The Greek "logos" means "saying". The reference is to the Torah of God. Since in ancient Judaism terms like "light", "way", "truth", "life" and "word" are all related to the Torah of God, John is simply communicating the ancient Jewish belief that God first created the Torah, and after that He created the world by consulting the Torah. Hence the wording

"the word was facing/towards the God and the word was god"

No personal pronoun is present in front of the second "god", therefore it is used in an adjectival sense. The word was "power", for that is what the work means. Here is a re a few notes and a more literal translation. Notice the clear distinction between "god" and "*the* God"::



John 1:
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was *toward* [ie facing] *the* God, and the word was god [ie "power"].
2 This was in the beginning with *the* God.
3 All [neuter plural (ie "things")] became through *it*, and apart from *it* nothing became that has become. - [See v10.]
4 In *it* was life, and the life was the light of humans.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 Became a human sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This one came as a witness, to testify about the light, so that all might believe through *it*. - [faith comes by hearing the word ("logos") of God = Torah]
8 He was not the light, but he came to testify about the light.
9 It was the true light, that coming into the world enlightens every human [ie conversion].
10 It was in the world, and the world became through it, and the world did not know it. [see v3]

11 It came to His own [neuter plural], and His own [masculine plural (ie "people")] did not receive it. - [The giving of the Torah in Exodus - the worship of the golden calf]
12 But as many as received it, to those who believe in ["into"] His name, to them He gave the right [ie authority] to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the word became flesh [the Torah became embodied in the man Yeshua], and tabernacled among us, and we gazed at his glory, glory as of the one and only beside the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for he has become before me.’”
16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
17 For the Torah was given through Moses; grace and truth became through Yeshua Messiah. - [the Torah being the reference to the written form (letter), "truth" to its correct application/teaching (spirit)].
18 No one has ever seen God; the one and only son [some manuscripts have "god"] who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed Him.
Notice that the "word" is not what Jesus was before he was born. Jesus is what the word became. Jesus only appears in v14. Up to that point John talks about the personified Torah (in Jewish writings things are often personified, such as the Sabbath, wisdom, trees, the Spirit, and Torah - it is an error to see these as persons].

[font="arial][size="2"]OK, now go and do your own research rather than keep parroting back the official doctrine.[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="2"]Or at least learn the original languages so that you don't get so hung up on English translations.[/size][/font]
 

aspen

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Well B,

I have studied church history quite a bit and what you are proposing not only guts Christianity as we know it, but forces us to revise history in such a way that leaves us putting our faith in a whim, rather than Christ. Based on your premise, the Bible is untrustworthy - it will have to be re-interpreted where possible and edited to reflect the idea that Jesus is not God and all ideas that happen to be shared by other religions scraped. All Church fathers must be edited because of their incessant need to pander to the Greeks; embracing Neoplatonism, the Virgin Birth, the Immaculate conception, etc.

Of course once we start this process, we will also have to start revising the OT - Job, the Creation account, and the Flood story are all similar to ancient stories found throughout early Mesopotamia; references to Sophie - the Greek God of Wisdom; the name of God - Yahweh is supposedly the name of a sky god.

Paul must be censored - he was the guy that got everyone interested in the Gentiles in the first place - and how dare him associate a Greek god - the Unknown God with the Christian God?

Nice knowing you Augustine, cya Denis, Jerome - you were always a crabby out hermit, but I will miss you too. Aristotle? Oh sorry Aquinas - yeah, don't miss your bus to Paganville.

Fact is, like it or not, Christianity is intertwined with human culture. You cannot separate it - you just have to Christianize it. C.S. Lewis did a great job of reclaiming pagan characters in his children's books. To do otherwise in search of the illusion of purity is [font="arial][size="2"]equivalent[/size][/font] to chasing rainbows and ends up leaving a carcass of Christianity in the place of a living religion.

At the end of the day, I have to agree with all orthodox Christians - if Jesus was not God, we would be lost - regardless of your idea that Original Sin was invented by Augustine and not rooted in the Bible, because we still sin and fall short of being Holy.
 

belantos

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Nov 12, 2010
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Well B,

I have studied church history quite a bit and what you are proposing not only guts Christianity as we know it, but forces us to revise history in such a way that leaves us putting our faith in a whim, rather than Christ. Based on your premise, the Bible is untrustworthy - it will have to be re-interpreted where possible and edited to reflect the idea that Jesus is not God and all ideas that happen to be shared by other religions scraped. All Church fathers must be edited because of their incessant need to pander to the Greeks; embracing Neoplatonism, the Virgin Birth, the Immaculate conception, etc.

Of course once we start this process, we will also have to start revising the OT - Job, the Creation account, and the Flood story are all similar to ancient stories found throughout early Mesopotamia; references to Sophie - the Greek God of Wisdom; the name of God - Yahweh is supposedly the name of a sky god.

Paul must be censored - he was the guy that got everyone interested in the Gentiles in the first place - and how dare him associate a Greek god - the Unknown God with the Christian God?

Nice knowing you Augustine, cya Denis, Jerome - you were always a crabby out hermit, but I will miss you too. Aristotle? Oh sorry Aquinas - yeah, don't miss your bus to Paganville.

Fact is, like it or not, Christianity is intertwined with human culture. You cannot separate it - you just have to Christianize it. C.S. Lewis did a great job of reclaiming pagan characters in his children's books. To do otherwise in search of the illusion of purity is [font="arial][size="2"]equivalent[/size][/font] to chasing rainbows and ends up leaving a carcass of Christianity in the place of a living religion.

At the end of the day, I have to agree with all orthodox Christians - if Jesus was not God, we would be lost - regardless of your idea that Original Sin was invented by Augustine and not rooted in the Bible, because we still sin and fall short of being Holy.


It is a choice I cannot make for you. If you are happy with what you have, stay where you are. I am not proselytising. I chose to reinterpret the Renewed Covenant scriptures in the light of the Tanakh and it works. No need for major revisions and editing. Only a few spurious passages, but textual scholars are aware of them.

About Mesopotamian and other creation and flood stories, these can be easily explained that they all originated from a single source, but were adopted into their polytheistic system. It is much harder to see how monotheism was born in the midst of a polytheistic system without divine revelation, for as the bible states Abraham and his father were idol worshippers. God had to teach Abraham that He was a God unlike all the other idols.


I have no interest in following a religious tradition that was born from the chaos of the second century. My quest is to rediscover the faith of Jesus and the apostles.

But others may not want to walk this path...
 

Duckybill

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[font="arial][size="3"]Or at least learn the original languages so that you don't get so hung up on English translations.[/size][/font]

I've dealt with JW's before. I know where you're coming from. Every English translation I know of disagrees with you, EXCEPT, the JW's own translation.

John 1:1 (GW)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (AMP)
[sup]1 [/sup]IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

John 1:1 (NASB)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (NIV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (MaceNT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.

John 1:1 (NLT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (WesleyNT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning existed the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (Darby)
[sup]1 [/sup]In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (WEY)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (ASV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

belantos

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
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I've dealt with JW's before. I know where you're coming from. Every English translation I know of disagrees with you, EXCEPT, the JW's own translation.

John 1:1 (GW)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (AMP)
[sup]1 [/sup]IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

John 1:1 (NASB)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (NIV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (MaceNT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.

John 1:1 (NLT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (WesleyNT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning existed the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (Darby)
[sup]1 [/sup]In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (WEY)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (ASV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.




LOL, you are truly funny
smile.gif


I am not a JW. Can you see the lack of the definite article in the following? I underlined it for you. It is absent before the second "theos".

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν (the God), καὶ θεὸς (god) ἦν ὁ λόγος.


Now go and argue with the Greek.
[font="'SBL Greek"][/font]
 

Duckybill

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LOL, you are truly funny
smile.gif


I am not a JW. Can you see the lack of the definite article in the following? I underlined it for you. It is absent before the second "theos".
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν (the God), καὶ θεὸς (god) ἦν ὁ λόγος. Now go and argue with the Greek.

You are preaching JW doctrine. So you're in the same sinking boat.

 

Angelina

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Hi benlantos!


understanding ancient Judaism is the key to understanding the Renewed Covenant scriptures

The Judaic Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and are still awaiting him. This is a Christian Board...Why would anyone here, especially born-again believers, want to look into Judaism when they deny Christs virgin birth, his death and resurrection and his blood that cleanses us from sin? :huh:

If you are a Judaic Jew...you are welcome, but please be aware of the forum rules.

Christianity Board Rules:

Any derogatory remarks about God (including the Son and Holy Spirit) will be removed. The same goes for remarks about Christianity


Shalom!
 

belantos

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Nov 12, 2010
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You are preaching JW doctrine. So you're in the same sinking boat.


It would be handy if you could distinguish between my theology and theirs. They translate it as "and the word was a god", I translate it as "the word was power" or "the word was divine".
They believe in the virgin birth, when Michael archangel came down and was born as Jesus. [edited by the moderator] They believe Jesus already rules from heaven, I don't. Their theology about salvation is same as Christians', mine is similar to that of Judaism.

Very little similarity. The only area we agree is that God is ONE not three.
 

belantos

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Nov 12, 2010
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Hi benlantos!


The Judaic Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and are still awaiting him. This is a Christian Board...Why would anyone here, especially born-again believers, want to look into Judaism when they deny Christs virgin birth, his death and resurrection and his blood that cleanses us from sin? :huh:

If you are a Judaic Jew...you are welcome, but please be aware of the forum rules.

Christianity Board Rules:


Shalom!

Angelina, Jesus and the first disciples were practising Jews. So were the Ebionites who believed in Jesus, yet rejected the Greek-developed doctrines. Almost all writings of the bible were written by Jewish authors. Outside of the context of ancient Judaism Messianism looses its original meaning.

If you read my posts you can see I gave my reasons for not going with the mainstream.