Separation of Church and State a Red Herring.

[Ziggy]

Freedom of Religion is a First Amendment Right in the US Constitution.
There are no laws concerning which religion or religions must be observed.
That would be unconstitutional.

The Idea of Separation of Church and State is not written in the Constitution.
The concept of keeping religion and government separate has deep roots in American history, but the exact phrase “separation of church and state” comes from a specific 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson.

Jefferson saw an opportunity to make a major public statement. On January 1, 1802, he sent his reply. He affirmed their core belief: “religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions.”

He then connected this principle directly to the Constitution, expressing his “sovereign reverence” for the act of the American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

It is against the law and unconstitutional for the US Government to impose on anyone any establishment of religion.

Separation of Church and State: How Jefferson's Wall Became Constitutional Law

The phrase “separation of church and state” drives some of America’s most heated political debates. School prayer, religious displays in public spaces, and faith-based hiring practices all spark fierce arguments about where to draw the line between religious freedom and government...

govfacts.org

This does not prohibit the assembly of people, young or old, exercising their religion.
The question is, does the State have the right to allow or prohibit religious observances in Government establishments such as Public Schools or Libraries, etc.

This can go in another direction as well,
Does a Teacher's Union have the right to pull kids out of classrooms so they can go out and protest?

What are the limitations between States Rights and Individual Rights?

Hugs

 

[Brakelite]

but the reformation won.

No, the reformation to "come out of her My people" isn't finished, and the vast majority have abandoned protestant principles and are going back to Mother through ecumenism and acceptance of Catholic defined doctrine and morality. If anything, I think the counter Reformation, on the surface at least , is winning.

 

[Ziggy]

Back in the old days a School House and a Church Assembly were both held in the same building.
I was thinking about the Series Little House on the Prairie.
One bell rang for both.

You think if there was an issue between holding church in school or school in church, they would have sorted it out a LONG time ago,

Just thinking
Hugs

 

[Brakelite]

Hey man,

I know for myself that no one can define the terms of worship except to the notion of Jesus himself "to worship God and to worship him in spirit and truth" is something that God desires for people to do so that they can be helped by the Spirit of Christ with in them.

I also do not believe in a so-called "one world government." I just don't think that is possible with so many people in the world. It's hard enough for some of the governments to keep it together as others fall apart.

The world is constantly breaking down and building itself back up, so for myself. God sustains the world... but I wonder why so many people claim the Devil is the one at fault (While darkness remains within our ownselves - I dont understand why so many point to the devil and not themselves), when it's just human beings with their beliefs, and ideas, and whatever it is they believe is right.

We have to be responsible for ourselves, and how we go about life, and we are telling people how they should worship or whatever it should be done with caution and a remembrance that Jesus desires for people to be free, as God allows the world to continue on forward as we all slowly vanish away like vapor.

May sound pointless but at the end of the day it is up to oneself what they make of this world all together (concerning the systems in place) God allowed the governing bodies so that to me is a great thing when it comes down to it.

I agree with you that no man ought to be able to govern worship. But they have tried. Ever heard of blue laws??
As for world governance. Prophecy declares it. It's going to happen. By the time of Jesus's return , there will be only two people groups on the planet. While there will be still many races and cultures, the world will be divided between the sheep and the goats. Between spiritual Israel... the church, and spiritual Babylon the Great, the global Christian counterfeit led from Rome and supported by the US. Two sides. And everyone, invisible you, need to choose which side you are on. Either you will receive the seal of God, or you will receive the mark of the Beast. You will either keep the commandments of God, or you will be among those who keep the commandments of men. There's no in between, no fence sitting, no lukewarm compromising to please others. Sheep and goats. No cows, pigs, or snakes.
“31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. ”
Matthew 25:31-33 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

 

[MatthewG]

I agree with you that no man ought to be able to govern worship.

okay - I don’t need all the extra

 

[Ziggy]

I agree with you that no man ought to be able to govern worship. But they have tried. Ever heard of blue laws??
As for world governance. Prophecy declares it. It's going to happen. By the time of Jesus's return , there will be only two people groups on the planet. While there will be still many races and cultures, the world will be divided between the sheep and the goats. Between spiritual Israel... the church, and spiritual Babylon the Great, the global Christian counterfeit led from Rome and supported by the US. Two sides. And everyone, invisible you, need to choose which side you are on. Either you will receive the seal of God, or you will receive the mark of the Beast. You will either keep the commandments of God, or you will be among those who keep the commandments of men. There's no in between, no fence sitting, no lukewarm compromising to please others. Sheep and goats. No cows, pigs, or snakes.
“31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. ”
Matthew 25:31-33 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

I was just thinking about every word being held accountable. So I started looking up unclean lips.
All I can say is, I wouldn't want to be the accountant.

Hugs

 

[Brakelite]

okay - I don’t need all the extra

Oh right. You believe even the goats are saved, is that right?

 

[Ziggy]

Oh right. You believe even the goats are saved, is that right?

I don't know. God can be pretty persuasive at times.

If there were no hope for them then why are we told to love them, forgive them, and pray for them?
That's why they are called lost souls.
If God wills it that even the goats will kneel before the Lord, then who are we to say otherwise?

I believe there will be punishment and justice, but by what degree and how applied, I do not know.

Even in baseball there are 3 strikes before you are out.
How many chances does God give us?
One lifetime? more?

 

[Ziggy]

but I wonder why so many people claim the Devil is the one at fault

Pass the buck. Scapegoating.

The devil made me do it. Eve started that and Adam went along with it because they was both guilty and didn't want to admit it.
Jhn 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So if doing good is Truth, then doing evil is Lying.

God already knows everything, so they aren't lying to God, they are lying to themselves.
And whoever they can find to believe them

Governments will come and go, ours it to ride out the storm on Noah's Ark and get to the other side.

But the ticket to that ride has a name. It's called Truth.

Hugs

 

[MatthewG]

Oh right. You believe even the goats are saved, is that right?

I just said I didn't need all the extra sir... From what is shared in the bible people live outside the kingdom of heaven, or inside of it...

I do like to put boundaries on people too sometimes when it comes to communicating with me. I dont always have to answer a question, and the bible doesnt need to be quoted in order for me to answer a question just cause im suppose to be ready whether its summer or winter.

I gave an answer, and not needing all your extra stuff was just unneeded truly.

 

[MatthewG]

Pass the buck. Scapegoating.

Hi, I don't know you. Or what you are really saying or where you coming from when it came down to commenting on my comment. Idk if you wanna redo it or not... cause I just dont know you or whats going on with what you are writing or why you are writing.

That something i hate sometimes about communicating on these websites people tend to do more extra stuff rather than just being direct.

Thank you have a great day.

 

[Ziggy]

Hi, I don't know you. Or what you are really saying or where you coming from when it came down to commenting on my comment. Idk if you wanna redo it or not... cause I just dont know you or whats going on with what you are writing or why you are writing.

That something i hate sometimes about communicating on these websites people tend to do more extra stuff rather than just being direct.

Thank you have a great day.

It's ok if you don't remember me. We've had plenty of discussions in this forum though, and well, I guess I just wanted to stick my nose where it wasn't wanted.
Ok Bye

Hugs

 

[MatthewG]

It's ok if you don't remember me. We've had plenty of discussions in this forum though, and well, I guess I just wanted to stick my nose where it wasn't wanted.
Ok Bye

Hugs

Bye

 

[The Learner]

read

 

[Brakelite]

I don't know. God can be pretty persuasive at times.

If there were no hope for them then why are we told to love them, forgive them, and pray for them?
That's why they are called lost souls.
If God wills it that even the goats will kneel before the Lord, then who are we to say otherwise?

I believe there will be punishment and justice, but by what degree and how applied, I do not know.

Even in baseball there are 3 strikes before you are out.
How many chances does God give us?
One lifetime? more?

“6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. ”
Isaiah 55:6-7 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

It seems we have a certain time limit or time of probation in which to find God, or rather perhaps let Him find us. That time would be limited to this life, because in death we sleep and have no understanding or awareness outside of the grave until Jesus returns to take His people home.

 

[doctrox]

The current controversy over the separation of church and state is a distraction, and not the real issue.

That's correct, but not for the reasons claimed in the Facebook link. "The Constitution" and denominationalism are merely two movings part of that distraction. A third moving part would be the incorrect but common misread of Romans chapter 13...

Romans 13:1-8
Obey Your Government Rulers...

...which we can chat up later.

Separation of Church and State a Red Herring.

In truth, there is to be no such separation. So let's expose the real red herring.

The "United States" is a corporation (28 USC § 3002(15)(A)), from which we get the word "corpse" i.e. a body, a dead thing.

Compromising with temporal powers can never lead to redemption. Most "Christians" have accepted the unrighteous code of the corporation, instead of insisting that the corporation follow the Laws of Almighty God. The majority do not discern the difference between the two, between Law and force, thus they are destroyed for lack of knowledge. The kingdoms of this world use force, for there is no love in what they do. Whereas the kingdom of God uses Law, for love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8).

There is only one lawgiver (James 4:12). This one lawgiver is the Lord (Isaiah 33:22). Man does not have authority to make laws, but only the authority to make ‘ordinances’ which enforce Laws already in existence, which are the Laws of God. To obey the so-called ‘laws’ conjured up by the worldly governing authorities is to set aside the gospel of our Lord, and place oneself under a separate government, other than his.

The Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment).

Do you realize that the Constitution allows everybody to freely worship any god they choose to? This is one of the greatest abominations to God.

Old Testament Israel had this same exact law also, and God would punish them whenever they enacted this law. Whenever people would worship other gods in his country, he would command them to tear down their temples and idols. If they refused, God would always punish his people. Even if there was a mixture of people worshipping the True God and people worshipping false gods, this was an abomination also, as his people are not to mix the two. God even commanded his people to go to neighboring countries of the heathen and tear down their temples and idols.

The truth is, the freedom of religion is an abomination to God. Man only has the "right" to worship Almighty God. To be free to worship any other god or partake of any other religion is an abomination to him, and violates the first Two Commandments:

Exodus 20:3-5, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:"

Scripture tells us to test people, to see if they are of God or not.

1 John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

This only makes sense, when one is sincerely interested in associating with godly people, while avoiding the contamination and influence of ungodly men.

The key, however, to the rejection of the rule of God was Article VI, Clause 3, "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several state Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Most are unaware the "Constitution" forbids God. The Constitution was a rebellion against Christ and his authority over the nation, replacing it with the rule of man. The Bible warns us, "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?" (Isaiah 2:22).

An objection is that the Constitution contains Christian principles and therefore is a sort of halfway covenant. As evidence of this, they may offer that the Constitution presents us with a system of divided authority and diffused powers. Even covenant-breaking historians would admit that Christian principles exist within the Constitution while denying that it is a Christian covenant (the word “God” does not appear in the “Constitution”). The problem with this is that every government that exists contains Christian principles. In fact, any truth or correct morality is a Christian principle. All true and good principles are Christian principles because this universe is created and governed by the true and living God who has revealed himself in the Bible. Islamic governments contain many Biblical principles, such as capital punishment. That does not, however, save them from condemnation as apostate covenants. We must return to the question, what sort of Christian principles constitute a Christian government and what make an apostate government? The Biblical covenant model is the Biblical model and therefore the only proper judge of whether or not a state is a covenant-keeping one.

In Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961), the United States Supreme Court holds that the state of Maryland cannot require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause. This verifies that the U.S. Constitution allows Atheists to rule and make laws for bondservants of Christ!

“We the people...” = the religion of humanism. This is why citizens have Satanists ruling over them today -- and they signed on to that program voluntarily!

 

[Lambano]

Separation of Mosque and State a Red Herring.​

Will you feel the same way when the Muslims have a voting majority and try to impose sharia on the community and impose the jizyah tax on Christians?

 

[Brakelite]

That's correct, but not for the reasons claimed in the Facebook link. "The Constitution" and denominationalism are merely two movings part of that distraction. A third moving part would be the incorrect but common misread of Romans chapter 13...

...which we can chat up later.


In truth, there is to be no such separation. So let's expose the real red herring.

The "United States" is a corporation (28 USC § 3002(15)(A)), from which we get the word "corpse" i.e. a body, a dead thing.

Compromising with temporal powers can never lead to redemption. Most "Christians" have accepted the unrighteous code of the corporation, instead of insisting that the corporation follow the Laws of Almighty God. The majority do not discern the difference between the two, between Law and force, thus they are destroyed for lack of knowledge. The kingdoms of this world use force, for there is no love in what they do. Whereas the kingdom of God uses Law, for love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8).

There is only one lawgiver (James 4:12). This one lawgiver is the Lord (Isaiah 33:22). Man does not have authority to make laws, but only the authority to make ‘ordinances’ which enforce Laws already in existence, which are the Laws of God. To obey the so-called ‘laws’ conjured up by the worldly governing authorities is to set aside the gospel of our Lord, and place oneself under a separate government, other than his.

The Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment).

Do you realize that the Constitution allows everybody to freely worship any god they choose to? This is one of the greatest abominations to God.

Old Testament Israel had this same exact law also, and God would punish them whenever they enacted this law. Whenever people would worship other gods in his country, he would command them to tear down their temples and idols. If they refused, God would always punish his people. Even if there was a mixture of people worshipping the True God and people worshipping false gods, this was an abomination also, as his people are not to mix the two. God even commanded his people to go to neighboring countries of the heathen and tear down their temples and idols.

The truth is, the freedom of religion is an abomination to God. Man only has the "right" to worship Almighty God. To be free to worship any other god or partake of any other religion is an abomination to him, and violates the first Two Commandments:

Exodus 20:3-5, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:"

Scripture tells us to test people, to see if they are of God or not.

1 John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

This only makes sense, when one is sincerely interested in associating with godly people, while avoiding the contamination and influence of ungodly men.

The key, however, to the rejection of the rule of God was Article VI, Clause 3, "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several state Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Most are unaware the "Constitution" forbids God. The Constitution was a rebellion against Christ and his authority over the nation, replacing it with the rule of man. The Bible warns us, "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?" (Isaiah 2:22).

An objection is that the Constitution contains Christian principles and therefore is a sort of halfway covenant. As evidence of this, they may offer that the Constitution presents us with a system of divided authority and diffused powers. Even covenant-breaking historians would admit that Christian principles exist within the Constitution while denying that it is a Christian covenant (the word “God” does not appear in the “Constitution”). The problem with this is that every government that exists contains Christian principles. In fact, any truth or correct morality is a Christian principle. All true and good principles are Christian principles because this universe is created and governed by the true and living God who has revealed himself in the Bible. Islamic governments contain many Biblical principles, such as capital punishment. That does not, however, save them from condemnation as apostate covenants. We must return to the question, what sort of Christian principles constitute a Christian government and what make an apostate government? The Biblical covenant model is the Biblical model and therefore the only proper judge of whether or not a state is a covenant-keeping one.

In Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961), the United States Supreme Court holds that the state of Maryland cannot require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause. This verifies that the U.S. Constitution allows Atheists to rule and make laws for bondservants of Christ!

“We the people...” = the religion of humanism. This is why citizens have Satanists ruling over them today -- and they signed on to that program voluntarily!

Well, well, well. That's all very interesting. A very well elucidated defense of dominionism and the reasoning to justify the concept. Most unfortunate.
Dominionism is akin to the descendants of Noah creating a common language in order to continue with the construction of the tower of Babel. What God has divided man is attempting to unite through ecumenism, globalism, and dominionism.
In Daniel 2:41-43 we read that in the feet of the statue, there is present both iron, which represents Rome, and clay, which represents God's people. (See Jeremiah 18:1-6). God has made it impossible for iron and clay to mix, and the metaphor applies directly to God's people forbidden to mix with the state. In fact, in contradiction to what you stated above, God punished Israel for mixing the two. Kings were not permitted to offer sacrifice, Saul being a classic example of disobedience. To do so was spiritual adultery... the church fornicating with the kings of the earth, as spoken of several times in Revelation.
In order to sustain your arguments, you must ignore Jesus, Who clearly stated that God's kingdom was not of this world but within each and every one of us who have received Him, and that we are not to invade Babylon and take over her dominion, but to come out of her and call others out. Not to enter and take over. The gospel of the kingdom is not political. That the civil government power, authority, and laws are being used to establish God's kingdom on earth cries aloud and testifies to the scarcity of the holy Spirit working in the churches of America today. They have abandoned Christ and are looking to man to institute Godliness and righteousness. That isn't the gospel.
Your conscience does not belong to you that you should decide what is truth. Nor should the state, or the church. It is not your own. Hebrews 9:14. It is not up to the state to guide anyone's conscience. It is up to God. His word is the final arbiter and final authority as to what is truth. The state does not hold authority over anyone to decide their eternal future and destiny by interpreting scripture and then legislating it in order to establish a self motivated fake theocracy. What you would be attempting to implement is a carbon copy of medieval Europe and the papal control over people's minds and hearts. You know how that turned out. And need I mention the Revelation 13 protestant image to the Papal beast now being erected in America which you are advocating on this thread?

 

[Brakelite]

Well, well, well. That's all very interesting. A very well elucidated defense of dominionism and the reasoning to justify the concept. Most unfortunate.
Dominionism is akin to the descendants of Noah creating a common language in order to continue with the construction of the tower of Babel. What God has divided man is attempting to unite through ecumenism, globalism, and dominionism.
In Daniel 2:41-43 we read that in the feet of the statue, there is present both iron, which represents Rome, and clay, which represents God's people. (See Jeremiah 18:1-6). God has made it impossible for iron and clay to mix, and the metaphor applies directly to God's people forbidden to mix with the state. In fact, in contradiction to what you stated above, God punished Israel for mixing the two. Kings were not permitted to offer sacrifice, Saul being a classic example of disobedience. To do so was spiritual adultery... the church fornicating with the kings of the earth, as spoken of several times in Revelation.
In order to sustain your arguments, you must ignore Jesus, Who clearly stated that God's kingdom was not of this world but within each and every one of us who have received Him, and that we are not to invade Babylon and take over her dominion, but to come out of her and call others out. Not to enter and take over. The gospel of the kingdom is not political. That the civil government power, authority, and laws are being used to establish God's kingdom on earth cries aloud the scarcity of the holy Spirit working in the churches of America today. They have abandoned Christ and are looking to man to institute Godliness and righteousness. That isn't the gospel.
Your conscience does not belong to you that you should decide what is truth. Not should the state, or the church. It is not your own. Hebrews 9:14. It is not up to the state to guide anyone's conscience. It is up to God. His word is thy final arbiter and final authority as to what is truth. The state does not hold authority over anyone to decide their eternal future and destiny. What you would be attempting to implement is a carbon copy of medieval Europe and the papal control over people's minds and hearts. You know how that turned out.

You may be able to coerce or force people through threat of punishment to obey religious laws. But you will never change hearts, and that is what God is interested in.

 

[Brakelite]

@doctrox did you read this, and do you understand the concept as presented in the Declaration of Independence and how the principles behind it cannot support any union of church and state?
Post in thread 'Separation of Church and State a Red Herring.' Separation of Church and State a Red Herring.