Seventh-day Adventist

[Pavel Mosko]

Of course people will receive the mark of the beast of their own free will. I would certainly not limit that to those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.

1A) The whole business of Sunday being the mark of the Beast is such weak sauce that Adventists should be ashamed of that claim, if "being Biblical" is actually a real thing they actually care about. I say this because of all the 8th Day Typologies, Rituals etc. in OT Judaism and their prophetic significance.

1B) Not to mention the entire history of worship in Judaism leading up to the New Testament. e.g.- Purim and Hannukah were established as official holidays without an official divine decree. The same goes for synagogue worship and it taking place on the sabbath, that came from tradition and not from scripture. The entire synagogue system was invented off camera, to speak, during the Babylonian exile as a stop gap to give the Jews a way to worship since they could not go to the temple.



2) Besides this there is the trail of Doctrinal Development of the Millerite and post Millerite believers, which will bring you to the "Shut Door" and all the problems it caused with basically invalidating the prophetic status of Ellen White and the other Adventist "Pioneers" who were having the various early visions that were the source of these doctrines.



3A )Besides, this there is the whole unwieldy nature of "Present Truth". You basically are changing the rules of the game after maybe 3/4 of it has already been played under a different set of rules etc. There are really big, big problems of this when it comes to a number of scriptures and doctrinal topics on a number of different fronts of epistemology, God's nature, the nature of the Gospel, or even how the Church is supposed to function as one body.


3B) Common sense should warn people this is untenable. It is like thinking you can change directions of a enormous vehicle like an aircraft carrier on a dime, or expecting the tail to wag the dog. The Christian Church is a world wide body that stretches not just the entire world, but across 2000 years of history, and into higher dimensions and the future.... (But maybe that is the problem, because I can think of other unique SDA doctrines like Soul Death that make matters worse. Because Adventists do not believe believers have a spirit so to speak).



4) Finally, Adventist are not the only believers that have "The Spirit of Prophecy" as a modern thing. In the 1990s, I was very active in the charismatic movement and the "Prophetic Movement" that was going on with that. I saw and experienced some good things, but actually saw many problems too. I actually think, if Adventists had more of my experience, they would be much less willing to give Ellen White the rubber stamp. I have read various statements of Adventists especially concerning the "Spirit of Prophecy" talk about "judging prophecy", but it does not look to me that they have ever really done that, only paid lip service to the notion, because they know that skeptics and critics will bring up this topic at some point.

 

[BarneyFife]

There's 5 or 6 SDA members here. They are obsessed with Catholic bashing. They often give long impressive looking references to a document that either cannot be found on line or the quote is a total fabrication, with the appearance of being official. Their false histories are often errors of omission. Everything is interpreted to fulfil so called prophecies acquired through occult channeling. The SDA is currently in a state of schism, with their own scholars pleading for amendments to "The Great Controversy" against a dictatorial leadership that refuses to grow up.

Speaking of total fabrications, this is amazing.

Obscure documents and occult channeling. Pick your conspiracy theory, I guess.

The church has had numerous schisms, most of which prove to be minor. An ongoing one is the controversy over women's ordination to the Gospel ministry. If what you say were true, this schism would not even exist. Various union conferences are ordaining women, anyway, against the ruling of the General Conference in session.

Contrary to your malinformation, the church is democratic. A General Conference session is held every 5 years in which delegates from the worldwide membership vote on major issues. The ballot result is binding and resolute in forming policy, but the President doesn't even have the executive powers similar to the U.S. President. Administration is conducted at the lower division, union, and local conference levels. The government of the world church is practically ingenious, and you simply don't know what you're talking about.

There is also an excellent search utility on this forum that, with little effort, reveals that your charge of obsession with Catholic-bashing is utterly baseless. Some Adventist members may tend to be more critical of Catholic hierarchy and doctrine than others but your generalization/demonization is just that.

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[Illuminator]

Speaking of total fabrications, this is amazing.

Obscure documents and occult channeling. Pick your conspiracy theory, I guess.

The church has had numerous schisms, most of which prove to be minor. An ongoing one is the controversy over women's ordination to the Gospel ministry. If what you say were true, this schism would not even exist. Various union conferences are ordaining women, anyway, against the ruling of the General Conference in session.

That's not the only schism the SDA is grappling with. Your own scholars are pleading for minor amendments to The Great Controversy because the prophecies are downright silly. I retract the occult channeling charge.

Contrary to your malinformation, the church is democratic. A General Conference session is held every 5 years in which delegates from the worldwide membership vote on major issues. The ballot result is binding and resolute in forming policy, but the President doesn't even have the executive powers similar to the U.S. President. Administration is conducted at the lower division, union, and local conference levels. The government of the world church is practically ingenious, and you simply don't know what you're talking about.

There is also an excellent search utility on this forum that, with little effort, reveals that your charge of obsession with Catholic-bashing is utterly baseless. Some Adventist members may tend to be more critical of Catholic hierarchy and doctrine than others but your generalization/demonization is just that.

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But you guys can't stop calling Our Mother (the Church) a whore. There is no worse insult. It's built in your doctrines and sick videos.

 

[BarneyFife]

But you guys can't stop calling Our Mother a whore.

I assume you're appealing to mysticism. If you're referring to Mary, she was blessed above all women to deliver the Messiah to a dark and dying world, and virtuous, which positively procludes whoredom. But she had no co-redemptive authority or power. She lies in the grave, awaiting the glorious morning that her Son will jubilantly awaken her to life immortal and everlasting.

There is no "you guys."

I'm terribly sorry about the deception with which she's been so unjustly involved, but I won't affirm it or humor it. :)

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[Illuminator]

I assume you're appealing to mysticism. If you're referring to Mary,

No, I am not. "Mary" is the standard derailer for any losing argument.

 

[BarneyFife]

No, I am not. "Mary" is the standard derailer for any losing argument.

I have no idea what you mean. I pledge not to be evasive. However I realize that, to some degree, evasion is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

I greatly admire the mother of Jesus.

Perhaps you were referring to what is called the Mother Church.

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[BarneyFife]

That's not the only schism the SDA is grappling with. Your own scholars are pleading for minor amendments to The Great Controversy because the prophecies are downright silly.

This is why I said that the church has had numerous schisms. And believe me when I tell you that "The Great Controversy" appeal is a long-standing minor one that will not amount to anything. The White Estate is, by its very design, not subject to the same tampering that the world church government is.

I retract the occult channeling charge.

That's very commendable and very kind of you.

But you guys can't stop calling Our Mother (the Church) a whore. There is no worse insult. It's built in your doctrines and sick videos.

Would you give up transubstantiation, venerance of the saints, purgatory, immaculate conception, unconditional immortality, Sunday sacredness, absolution, infant baptism, penance, etc.? These things constitute the symbolic wine of Babylon in the book of Revelation.

The rhetoric of which you speak has been much toned down by Adventists over the years as a due gesture to the Catholic laity and, in fact, the person on this very forum who refers to the catholic church as you say does so more than all of the Adventist forum members combined.

At the risk of appearing to make use of tokening and virtue signaling, the finest employer I ever had was a good, Catholic, family business. It warms my heart just to think of those dear people and the close ties I have with them. They never once suggested that I work on Sabbath, which they did every week.

It might also surprise you to find that I believe it is quite likely that the vast majority of Christians who will make up the eternal kingdom of God will have gone down to Roman Catholic graves.

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[BarneyFife]

I guess this is about as good a place as any to address this malinformation:

We do know that Ellen G. White (founder) was a false prophet that made numerous false predictions...

False prediction number 1
Jerusalem’s future. In her book The Early Writings, she says “Then I was pointed to some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes. I saw that satan had greatly deceived some in this thing. I also saw that old Jerusalem never would be built up and that satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time.” This prophecy did not come true. Since the nation of Israel’s rebirth in 1948, old Jerusalem has been greatly built up.

Ellen G. White conveyed in 1851 that "old Jerusalem never would be built up." On its own, this statement might seem untenable. However, when considering the context, Mrs. White was advising the expanding Adventist community against engaging in both time-setting and the concept of the "age-to-come", deeming them incompatible with Biblical truth. She underscored that Old Testament prophecies predicting the establishment of a Jewish kingdom in Palestine were contingent on obedience and forfeited through disobedience. Unfulfilled prophecies were destined for fulfillment among the "true Israel," as revealed in the New Testament.

Consequently, the prevalent movement in the 1840s and 1850s advocating for a Zionist state in Palestine was not a realization of Biblical prophecy and not a cause Adventists should endorse. Her counsel aimed to redirect attention from Palestine towards the work that God had set before them.

In a vision in September 1850, she foresaw a "great error" in believing "it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem, and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes...; for those who think that they are yet to go to Jerusalem will have their minds there, and their means will be withheld from the cause of present truth to get themselves and others there."

Less than a year later, in August 1851, she reiterated more emphatically "that Old Jerusalem never would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord."

How did Ellen White's audience interpret this assertion? They understood that there was no validity in the popular "age-to-come" teaching, no Biblical significance in the Jews' return to Palestine, and that Jerusalem would not be rebuilt in a future millennial period. She was not referring to a potential political reconstruction of Jerusalem but rather to a prophetically meaningful rebuilding of Old Jerusalem. Persisting in such thinking, she emphasized, would lead further into Satan's deceptions and away from present duties.

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[BarneyFife]

We do know that Ellen G. White (founder) was a false prophet that made numerous false predictions...

False prediction number 2
England will attack the United States. In 1862 she predicted that when England does declare war against the north during the Civil War, all nations will have an interest of their own to serve and there will be general war, general confusion. The result will be that this nation, the United States, will be humbled into the dust. This was from Testimonies for the Church volume 1 page 259. American history clearly shows that England did not declare war against the United States during the Civil War and the United States was not humbled into the dust. So she made another false prediction.

Did Ellen G. White predict that England would declare war against the United States? Here is the context of her comment:

"England is studying whether it is best to take advantage of the present weak condition of our nation, and venture to make war upon her. She is weighing the matter, and trying to sound other nations. She fears, if she should commence war abroad, that she would be weak at home, and that other nations would take advantage of her weakness. Other nations are making quiet yet active preparations for war, and are hoping that England will make war with our nation, for then they would improve the opportunity to be revenged on her for the advantage she has taken of them in the past, and the injustice done them. A portion of the Queen's subjects are waiting a favorable opportunity to break their yoke; but if England thinks it will pay, she will not hesitate a moment to improve her opportunities to exercise her power, and humble our nation. When England does declare war, all nations will have an interest of their own to serve, and there will be general war, general confusion" (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p. 259).

Note the conditional character of these statements: "She fears, if she should commence war abroad, that she would be weak at home." "But if England thinks it will pay." Then follows the sentence: "When England does declare war. . . ." It is evident that Mrs. White is here using the word "when" as a synonym for "if," which is good English. In fact, if we do not thus understand the word "when" in this connection, we have an unusual situation--a series of problematical "ifs" is followed by a simple statement that England is going to declare war. Thus Mrs. White's last sentence would make pointless her preceding sentences.

A similar use of the word "when" is found on the preceding page in her work: "When our nation observes the fast which God has chosen, then will He accept their prayers as far as the war is concerned." No one will argue that the word "when" in this connection introduces a simple statement concerning a future fact that will undoubtedly happen.

An inspired parallel to this "if" and "when" construction is found in Jeremiah 42:10-19. The prophet speaks to Israel about abiding in Palestine rather than going down into Egypt:

"If ye will still abide in this land. . . ." Verse 10.
"But if ye say, We will not dwell in this land. . . ." Verse 13.
"If ye wholly set your faces to enter into Egypt. . . ." Verse 15.
"When ye shall enter into Egypt . . . ." Verse 18.

It is evident that the phrase "when ye shall enter into Egypt" is synonymous with "if ye shall enter into Egypt."

With the clause "when England does declare war," understood as synonymous with "if England does declare war," the statement changes from a prediction to a statement of mere possibility, but a possibility, however, whose full potentialities many might not realize.

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[Cassandra]

It might also surprise you to find that I believe it is quite likely that the vast majority of Christians who will make up the eternal kingdom of God will have gone down to Roman Catholic graves.

YEP! I think so too.

 

[BarneyFife]

We do know that Ellen G. White (founder) was a false prophet that made numerous false predictions...

False prediction number 3
the Civil War is a sign that Jesus is about to return. In her writings Testimonies for the Church Volume 1 page 260 she says “I saw greater distress in the land than we have yet witnessed. I heard groans and cries of distress and saw large companies in active battle. I heard the booming of the cannon, the clash of arms, the hand-to-hand fight and the groans and prayers of the dying…” So obviously there she’s talking about the civil war.

Ten she says “God’s people must take warning and discern the signs of the times. The signs of Christ’s coming are too plain to be doubted and in view of these things, everyone who professes the truth should be a living preacher… All heaven is astir. The scenes of Earth’s history are fast closing. We are amid the perils of the last days.” The Civil War ended in 1865 and Jesus has yet to return. Another failed prediction.

A prediction from Mrs. White that Christ would come before the Civil War ended is definitely one with which I'm totally unfamiliar.

Wars and rumors of wars are definitely a sign of His coming, but Mrs. White didn't originate that claim.

Perhaps your objection is against Christ Himself.

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[BarneyFife]

We do know that Ellen G. White (founder) was a false prophet that made numerous false predictions...

False prediction number 4
Jesus was to return in a few months. In her book The Early Writings, she says: In a view given June 27, 1850, my accompanying angel said “Time is almost finished…” said the angel “Get ready, get ready, get ready…” I saw that there was a great work to do for them but little time in which to do it. Then I saw that the last seven plagues were soon to be poured out upon those who have no shelter…Early Writings page 64.

Mrs. White continues to relate her vision and makes a startling prediction that only a few months are left before the Lord will return. She says in her Early Writings page 67 “But now time is almost finished in what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months. They will also have much to unlearn and much to learn again.” She said this in 1850. This is another failed prediction.

This was an account of a vision depicting future events—not a prediction.

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[BarneyFife]

We do know that Ellen G. White (founder) was a false prophet that made numerous false predictions...

False prediction number 5
Adventists living in 1856 will be alive to see Jesus return. Over 135 years ago in May of 1856, Mrs. White made another fascinating prophecy during a meeting in Battle Creek Michigan. She said: I was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel, “Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.” All those seventh-day Adventists that were alive to hear that are now dead, nobody was translated by Jesus. Yet another failed prediction.

Concerning a conference in 1856 Ellen White declared: "I was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel, 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.' " All who were alive then are now dead. Does this prediction mean that Mrs. White is a false prophet?

Numerous statements made by Ellen White in the decades following the 1856 vision demonstrate her clear understanding that there is an implied conditional quality to God's promises and threatenings--as Jeremiah declared--and that the conditional feature in forecasts regarding Christ's Advent involves the state of heart of Christ's followers. The following statement, written in 1883, is especially relevant on this point:

"The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the Word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. . . .

"It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed. God did not design that His people, Israel, should wander forty years in the wilderness. He promised to lead them directly to the land of Canaan, and establish them there a holy, healthy, people. But those to whom it was first preached, went not in 'because of unbelief.' Their hearts were filled with murmuring, rebellion, and hatred, and He could not fulfill His covenant with them.

"For forty years did unbelief, murmuring, and rebellion shut out ancient Israel from the land of Canaan. The same sins have delayed the entrance of modern Israel into the heavenly Canaan. In neither case were the promises of God at fault. It is the unbelief, the worldliness, unconsecration, and strife among the Lord's professed people that have kept us in this world of sin and sorrow so many years" (Ms 4, 1883, quoted in Evangelism, pp. 695, 696).

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[BarneyFife]

We do know that Ellen G. White (founder) was a false prophet that made numerous false predictions...

False prediction number 6
Christ would return before slavery was abolished. She says again in her Early Writings: I saw the pious slave rise in triumph and victory and shake off the chains that bound him, while his wicked master was in confusion and knew not what to do, for the wicked could not understand the words of the voice of God. Soon appeared the great white cloud…On its at the Son of man.” Slavery was not abolished for another six years after these statements, and the Lord hasn’t returned yet. Another failed prediction.

This would be an excellent charge were it not for the fact that the abolition of slavery in the U.S. has nothing to do with the vision of the Second Coming being described and that America is not the only place where people have been in chains and will be until the LORD returns.

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[BarneyFife]

We do know that Ellen G. White (founder) was a false prophet that made numerous false predictions...

False prediction number 7
She saw Enoch on Jupiter or Saturn. She says “The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes, they were noble, majestic and lovely. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. Then I was taken to a world which had seven moons.

There I saw good old Enoch who had been translated. Early Writings page 39 and 40. Don’t believe this? Ellen’s husband James White verified her vision when he wrote: At our conference in Topsham, Maine last November “Ellen had a vision of the handiworks of God. She was guided to the planets Jupiter, Saturn and I think one more. After she came out of the vision, she could give a clear description of their moons. It was well known that she knew nothing of astronomy and could not answer one question in relation to the planets before she had this vision.”

To this day highly detailed satellite pictures of Jupiter and Saturn have not revealed any life-forms of any size so I have no idea what Ellen White was talking about.

Contrary to some reports, Ellen White did not identify by name any of the "worlds" that she was shown in vision. Joseph Bates, a retired sea captain with a special interest in astronomy, was present during at least one of these visions, and he is reported to have identified the planets Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus as being among those described. Some have mistakenly linked Elder Bates' remarks to Ellen White's description of a "place" inhabited by "noble" and "majestic" beings. In Ellen White's own account of her vision, however, she says only that she was taken to "A PLACE" that was bright and glorious" (emphasis supplied). She does not identify "the place" as Jupiter, Saturn, or any other planet in our solar system. Here is her description: "The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place." Early Writings, pp. 39, 40.

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[Jay Ross]

If I may suggest, most people predicting the timing of Biblical Prophecy event, often use the wrong "signposts" on which to base their predictions from as to when those events will occur.

I too look for signposts which I can use to establish certain events. Have all of the signposts that could be used to help us understand when certain end time events will occur occurred yet? For Ellen White, not all of the signposts had been revealed up and until the end of her life. Nor have they for me, but I am a further 150 plus years along the timeline of man's history and so I have a little more evidence on which to base my understandings upon.

One of the key elements is determining the length of and Age or a Day of the Lord. Both an Age and a Day of the Lord, in my opinion have the same duration and a study of the chronology of the Biblical events recorded in the Scripture can be determined and confirmed with a right understanding of the Scriptures. It is possible, in my opinion that we can calculate the duration between when Adam was created and when the future final judgement will occur in years, but in saying this we must take into account the introduced story telling errors that become embedded in the recorded story line.

One such fulfilment of a Genesis Prophecy spoken of by God to Abraham can be found in Genesis 15:16 which spoke of the return of some of Abraham's descendants returning to the Land of Canaan, in their own strength during the fourth Age/Generation of their existence. Because this prophecy was fulfilled 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, many Biblical Scholars could not envisage this time period happening, until it did, and so they wrongly linked Genesis 15:16 with the prophecy contained in Genesis 15:13-14 which spoke of God taking Israel out of the Land of Egypt with great possessions.

Jesus also spoke of this return to the Land of Canaan but expressed it with respect to Israel's spiritual well-being. He also used the budding of the fig tree as a signpost for us, who are alive at this present time, as to when this present age will end, but the timeframe between when the Fig Tree will bud and when the Summer Season will begin during the next age has a built-in uncertainty from an agricultural perspective as to the actual year in which the Seventh Age will start.

Sadly, most understanding today has become confused over the understanding of the duration of a "genea" time period and miss the fact that it is speaking of the Seventh Age and all that will occur in it from the start up to the finish of this time period. In the LXX Genesis 15:16 uses the same Greek Word "genea" to describe when some of Abraham's descendants will return to the Land of Canaan in their own strength and since we have witnessed the return of some of Abraham's descendants in 1948, 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac during the fourth Age of the existence of the nation of Israel, we must accept that the duration of "genea" in Matthew 24:34 must be speaking of an Age also which is a little longer than 1,000 years.

Now the order of the time period between when the Fig tree budded and either the end of this present age or the beginning of the Seventh Age must be of the order of around 96 years within the limitation of any embedded errors in the calculations.

Now there are a number of OT prophecies that tell us that the iniquities of the fathers' continual idolatrous worship during the first and second ages of their existence will be visited upon their children during the third and the fourth ages of their existence for a period of two ages/days of the Lord in Hosea 6 and Lamentations 5:19.

Now the Armageddon judgement of the gentile Kings of the earth will occur around the time of the end of this present age and the start of the Seventh Age for mankind. At this time As God has promised the Israelites, He will also remove the beasts of the fields i.e., the beasts described in Daniel 7:1-12 and Satan, for a time so that they will enjoy peace upon the earth until the Time of the Great tribulation.

Hopefully I have chosen the right Biblical signposts upon which to base my understanding of the end times occurrence of the foretold events during the times.

Sadly, there are many on this forum who have a jumbled chronological timeline upon which they base their understandings upon believing that they have rightly discerned the scriptures. Sadly, many of these people attack many of the people who based their understanding of the end time events upon their studies, not realising that their own understanding as based also on flawed logic and scholarly understandings of the past.

Shalom

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

no Biblical significance in the Jews' return to Palestine, and that Jerusalem would not be rebuilt in a future millennial period.

Well that's false because Jesus is going to reign form Jerusalem for 1000 years!

Sadly, there are many on this forum who have a jumbled chronological timeline upon which they base their understandings upon believing that they have rightly discerned the scriptures

Why don't you give us an outline of the correct way we should be looking at it?

That way you can correct all the errors you are referring to.

Be sure and provide a complete scripture references!

 

[BarneyFife]

Well that's false because Jesus is going to reign form Jerusalem for 1000 years!

No, He isn't, but that's not the point, anyway.

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[Big Boy Johnson]

No, He isn't, but that's not the point, anyway.

Well, it won't matter anyway where you're concerned.

 

[Jay Ross]

Well that's false because Jesus is going to reign form Jerusalem for 1000 years!




Why don't you give us an outline of the correct way we should be looking at it?

That way you can correct all the errors you are referring to.

Be sure and provide a complete scripture references!

Well, your statement above about Jesus' reigning from Jerusalem for 1,000 years is not biblical based on what I know about the End Time Scriptures.

Perhaps you need to present the scriptures to justify your claim.

I know that Rev 19-20 does not back up your claim.