Should Churches celebrate Veteran's Day?

[Dodo_David]

I detect a few straw-man arguments in this discussion thread.

First, the job of teaching children about Jesus belongs to their adult family members and to the adults in local Christian congregations.

Second, children in the USA can pray on the property of public schools. Have you ever heard of the annual event called "See You At The Pole"?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Yes. Good points DD.

 

[Wormwood]

DD,
I think you missed the point here. This is not about parenting responsibility or if kids can pray privately or before school. It's about whether or not America is a "Christian" or secular nation.

 

[iticus]

I wonder what we would say of the Founding Fathers today?

So you don't like the taxes? So you don't want them to take your guns away? Does that give you a right to rise up and fight?

How many would have supported these right winged extremists today?

 

[tom55]

Wormwood.....You didn't answer my question. Would you want someone from Fred Phelps church teaching in a public school their idea of the Christian religion to your child?

And I will add to that question: Would you want them leading your child in prayer, in a public school, their beliefs of what should happen to gay people and our soldiers?

I wouldn't and I don't think any Christian would. That is why religion should only be taught in our public schools in history classes. If you want your child to have a Christ based education then send them to a Christian school. My position is not that of secularism, like you suggested. My position is what I stated in my post which was teach your child at home your religion...let the school teach them reading, writing and arithmetic. Dodo David said in a few short sentences what I said in several paragraphs in two different posts. Thank you DD for making it so simple and clear.

Your statement that you belong to a Christian church and you don't tell your Sunday school teachers not to teach about Jesus or someone will want us to teach about Mohammed is a weird statement. Why would you teach about Mohammed or any other religion in a CHRISTIAN Sunday school class? Why would a Islamic school teach about Jesus? Unless it is in a historical context!

You said it is sad that we have to take our children out of public school to learn about God! My child learns about God via me and my church. I think it would be sad if our public school DID teach about God because I would be concerned WHO's God they are teaching about; Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism?

 

[Dodo_David]

DD,
I think you missed the point here. This is not about parenting responsibility or if kids can pray privately or before school. It's about whether or not America is a "Christian" or secular nation.

The USA has never been a theocracy.

The nation's laws don't prevent the Christian faith from being practiced. Thus, the Christian faith can thrive out in the open.

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood.....You didn't answer my question. Would you want someone from Fred Phelps church teaching in a public school their idea of the Christian religion to your child?

And I will add to that question: Would you want them leading your child in prayer, in a public school, their beliefs of what should happen to gay people and our soldiers?

I wouldn't and I don't think any Christian would. That is why religion should only be taught in our public schools in history classes. If you want your child to have a Christ based education then send them to a Christian school. My position is not that of secularism, like you suggested. My position is what I stated in my post which was teach your child at home your religion...let the school teach them reading, writing and arithmetic. Dodo David said in a few short sentences what I said in several paragraphs in two different posts. Thank you DD for making it so simple and clear.

Your statement that you belong to a Christian church and you don't tell your Sunday school teachers not to teach about Jesus or someone will want us to teach about Mohammed is a weird statement. Why would you teach about Mohammed or any other religion in a CHRISTIAN Sunday school class? Why would a Islamic school teach about Jesus? Unless it is in a historical context!

You said it is sad that we have to take our children out of public school to learn about God! My child learns about God via me and my church. I think it would be sad if our public school DID teach about God because I would be concerned WHO's God they are teaching about; Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism?

Fred Phelps is not a Christian by my definition of the word. So, in a "Christian" setting he would not be teaching. Again, just because someone calls themselves something, does not mean it is so. Jesus made this very clear to the "children of Abraham" that he debated with during his ministry.

Think about what you are saying. "Religion" should only be taught in history. This is ridiculous. This is what you are teaching a child if you educate them in this way...

Religion is only part of history. It is something that is completely unessential for actual cognitive thinking and is merely a preference based on your background and your parents desires. Religion is merely a stepping stone that took us from ancient times when people were living in caves and trying to understand lightning and fire. Today, we understand that religion is completely unnecessary for your daily life, so we will not bother to actually teach you it unless you go to a private school to learn about such meaningless matters. As for public education, religion is useless. We will allow you to teach such meaningless matters elsewhere. You can do that at home as you learn about other things such as your family tree and hobbies.

The problem with your mentality is that it does teach kids by the absence of teaching. Our culture is teaching children that religion is entirely unnecessary. It has nothing to do with what we value, how we learn or how we define purpose. We can quite conveniently govern our lives and discern direction for our lives through mathematics and microscopes and God, angels and the stuff of legends has nothing to do with those more practical issues. It is no wonder our children are abandoning the faith in droves. They are learning exactly what our culture is teaching them. Religion means nothing for the real world and has no say in issues of real importance.

The fact is, education that excludes religion is religious education. It is a faith that claims we do not need faith to discern our place and purpose in life. I never said I do not appreciate the freedom to educate my children as I see fit. Yes, it is true that America allows for parents to put kids in private school. However, this is part of the pluralism of our nation. If it were a Christian nation, it would base its governance, educational system and laws on Biblical concepts. As it is, our nation does not do that. Again, this is not to say it is horrible, its just to say it isn't "Christian." Thus, I maintain we should not pretend it is by revering our flag in church services or claiming that "America is the hope of the world." America isn't even Christian!

Your statement that you belong to a Christian church and you don't tell your Sunday school teachers not to teach about Jesus or someone will want us to teach about Mohammed is a weird statement. Why would you teach about Mohammed or any other religion in a CHRISTIAN Sunday school class? Why would a Islamic school teach about Jesus? Unless it is in a historical context!

Precisely my point. You claim America is a Christian nation. Why would you worry about excluding Mohammed or any other religion in a CHRISTIAN nation? Yet this is exactly the rationale used for NOT teaching about Jesus in the public schools. Thus, America is not CHRISTIAN. It is secular.

You said it is sad that we have to take our children out of public school to learn about God! My child learns about God via me and my church. I think it would be sad if our public school DID teach about God because I would be concerned WHO's God they are teaching about; Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism?

It seems clear that we are talking past each other. I think the above statement shows that you are not understanding anything I have been trying to say. I must not be communicating clearly. I don't know how I can try to communicate any more clearly so I will just bow out.

 

[tom55]

Fred Phelps is not a Christian by my definition of the word. So, in a "Christian" setting he would not be teaching.

Read again what I said. I said teaching in a public school. A public school is not a Christian setting.



Think about what you are saying. "Religion" should only be taught in history. This is ridiculous.

What is ridiculous is that you did not read what I said. I said religion should be taught as history in a public school. In a religious school it would be normal/acceptable.



If it were a Christian nation, it would base its governance, educational system and laws on Biblical concepts. As it is, our nation does not do that. Again, this is not to say it is horrible, its just to say it isn't "Christian." Thus, I maintain we should not pretend it is by revering our flag in church services or claiming that "America is the hope of the world." America isn't even Christian!

Our laws are based on Judeo/Christian values. Anyone can see that. Read any poll or study done on religion in America and you will see American's overwhelmingly call themselves Christian. Hence, we are a Christian nation. You have a choice of educational systems; you can send your child to a religious school. Has someone told you you couldn't? If America isn't the hope of the world, which country is?



Thus, America is not CHRISTIAN. It is secular.

Just because our government/constitution doesn't officially or legally support a specific religion doesn't make America secular. Most Americans claim Christianity as their primary faith. That is why we are considered a Christian nation. Just like most countries in the middle east are considered Islamic countries; Islam is their primary faith and their laws reflect that.



I don't know how I can try to communicate any more clearly so I will just bow out.


I may not be communicating my thoughts clearly (I thought I was) so I will bow out also. <_<

 

[Dodo_David]

Just because our government/constitution doesn't officially or legally support a specific religion doesn't make America secular. Most Americans claim Christianity as their primary faith. That is why we are considered a Christian nation. Just like most countries in the middle east are considered Islamic countries; Islam is their primary faith and their laws reflect that

.
Uh, there is a difference between a nation having an official religion and a nation tolerating a religion that is popular in the nation's culture.

Islamic nations are Islamic nations because Islam is the official religion of those nations.

The USA has no official religion.

Also, people can call themselves one thing while actually being another thing.

 

[Wormwood]

Yes, David. That is precisely my point.

 

[tom55]

.
Uh, there is a difference between a nation having an official religion and a nation tolerating a religion that is popular in the nation's culture.

Islamic nations are Islamic nations because Islam is the official religion of those nations.

The USA has no official religion.

Also, people can call themselves one thing while actually being another thing.

DD,

I never said the USA has an official religion. I said Christianity is the primary faith of most American's therefor we are considered a Christian nation (POST #15). I agree with you that countries that are considered Islamic nations are considered Islamic because it is the official religion of those nations, but I didn't make that clear in my statement (my apologies). I guess I was implying it when I said "their laws reflect that" because as we know the laws of a nation are made by the government. Just like America's laws reflect Judeo/Christian values. Does that imply we are a Christian or religious nation/government? Our government buildings are adorned with religious sayings, pictures, statues etc. and a majority (if not all) of our presidents have invoked Gods name in their speeches and writings. Does this make us a religious nation? "In God we trust" on our money and our congress opening session's with a prayer from a minister paid for by tax dollars? Chaplains in our military. I ask these questions to discuss it, not as a statement of my belief.

Argentina's government financially supports Catholicism but do we consider it a Catholic nation? One example of many nations that have an official Christian religion.

"People can call themselves one thing while being another". I am not sure what you are suggesting with that statement?

 

[Dodo_David]

"People can call themselves one thing while being another". I am not sure what you are suggesting with that statement?

Here is an example of what I mean.

Matthew 7:15: "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

 

[tom55]

Here is an example of what I mean.

Matthew 7:15: "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

Are you referencing a person or a group of people? Just curious!

 

[Giver]

I am an American, and I am grateful for my freedom to worship and pray without fear of attack or persecution. However, is it right for churches to take time out of worship to God (and maybe even devote an entire Sunday) to honoring veterans? The more I think about this question, the more it troubles me. I watch videos and hear sermons that honor fallen soldiers in a church service and often incorporate verses such as "greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friend." Is this an appropriate use of this verse and is the church service an appropriate time to focus on those who fought or died in wars...no matter how noble?

I think not. Although I am not a pacifist, I have trouble reconciling Jesus' non-violent approach to his enemies with times in a worship service to focus on "honoring" people who fought or died in national conflicts. Is this really a fitting time to turn our attention from the Lord to honor the American military? Here are a list of reasons why I feel this focus is inappropriate and often distasteful.

1. Often fallen American soldiers (not sure how this is viewed in other countries) are given more admiration and reverence than saints who died for the faith. When is the last time we took a service to remember martyrs who gave their lives for their faith in Jesus Christ? Thousands die every day for their faith, yet we hardly even take notice.

2. We may see no problem with OUR country using the verse "greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friend" because we are a "godly" nation. But isn't this just a bit presumptuous? Does a godly nation legalize the murder of over one million unborn children a year? Does a godly nation give approval for acts and behaviors God declares to be abominations? Does a godly nation create laws against prayer in the schools and refuse to teach children about their creator? Imagine if we found inscriptions of Roman centurions using the verse "greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friend" with reference to Roman soldiers who died in a battle against a foreign army. Wouldn't we find that a misuse of the verse? I think anytime we take a verse about Christ's love for us in giving his sinless life on our behalf as a springboard to exalt war victims, it may be a bit too far. That verse is not about the advancement of any nation or empires ideals (no matter how noble they may seem) and to use it as such is disturbing.

3. I think Americans are in incredible danger of blending the national cause of this country with the Kingdom of God. The two are NOT the same. America has some very good ideals and some wonderful principles. However, it also has some pretty bad ideas and bad principles. America is just another nation in the world that could one day be discussed by future nations who are sifting through our archeological ruins. America is not a NT Israel and she is not the hope of the world. Jesus Christ is and we would do well to remember that. Why is it that America wants us to keep our religion out of her secular schools, yet we are so eager to inject her into our religion? Something seems a bit off here.

4. Should we really be singing the "Pledge of Allegiance" in our churches and flying an American flag next to a "Christian" flag? Is our worship to God a suitable time to "pledge allegiance to the flag...and to the republic for which it stands"? Personally, I am not comfortable "pledging allegiance" to Caesar, Bush, Obama, or any human institution. I'd rather be an American than any other nationality (personally). But my allegiance belongs to Jesus, not to any flag, republic, or human institution.

5. What about the other nations that attend your church? We have Japanese international students that sometimes attend where I worship. How do you think they feel when we take 10 minutes or an entire service to pledge our flag, remember our fallen warriors and celebrate our victories over America's enemies (including their grandparents). This is not to say that WWII was not justified...or any war for that matter. But do these issues really belong in our worship? What if you went to worship with Japanese Christians and they took a service to pay homage to their country and their fallen who died in their war against Americans? Would you feel welcome in such a place or that such a focus was warranted?

Again, I am glad I am an American and I love many of the things this country stands for. However, America is a country, not God. Fallen soldiers are not martyrs. America's wars are not spiritual crusades. We can appreciate or argue against political stances, wars, or appreciate those who serve in the military anytime we wish. I just don't think it should include Bible verses or occur when we come to gather to celebrate Jesus. What do you think?

[SIZE=large]I was in the US armed forces for five years, and had been taught by my church that it was one’s responsibility to defend his country. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=large]Then Jesus called me into his ministry, and became my teacher. One day Jesus came into my living room and told me, we were not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=large]Jesus said and was recorded in his written Word the following.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance[/SIZE].”

 

[tom55]

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Paul B]

All this man's reasonings from all of you and hardly a scripture quote from anyone! But even Jesus when refuting the devil said, "It is written..." And so now here are a few words on the subject NOT my own that are irrefutable. Paul said in Romans "This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." (Romans somewhere or other) Those who enter the armed services and die in that service are in fact dying in service of an authority ordained by the Lord- even if its a cruel dictator. (It is written: "He changes times and seasons; he deposes kings and raises up others. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning." Daniel 2) In fact Babylonian soldiers who died coming against Israel died in the service of the Lord wittingly or unwittingly as it says: We live in the most blessed nation in history on earth. I concede that some could dispute that but most won't dispute that our blessed nation is blessed by Him and therefore as it says: Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. (James 1) Finally, it is clear to all that our nation, a gift from the Lord, was ordained by the Lord (and we ordained to live in it at this time as it says: "...that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands." (Acts 17)) and that its military victories and defeats also come from the Lord as anyone who wants to read Deuteronomy 28 can see: The Lord will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. (verse 7 if you obey him) The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies (verse 25 if you disobey Him). Soldiers are in fact ordained authorities of the Lord to punish other nations including our own if we are to cursed for our wickedness. Now on the one hand I could claim that the authority the Lord ordained over us (Uncle Sam) ordained memorial day and even did so in the name of the Lord. Don't believe me? Read this (Underlining is mine):

Proclamation # 1445—Decoration Day, 1918
May 11, 1918

By the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation
Whereas, the Congress of the United States, on the second day of April last, passed the following resolution:

"Resolved by the Senate (the House of Representatives concurring), That, it being a duty peculiarly incumbent in a time of war humbly and devoutly to acknowledge our dependence on Almighty God and to implore His aid and protection, the President of the United States be, and he is hereby, respectfully requested to recommend a day of public humiliation, prayer, and fasting, to be observed by the people of the United States with religious solemnity and the offering of fervent supplications to Almighty God for the safety and welfare of our cause, His blessings on our arms, and a speedy restoration of an honorable and lasting peace to the nations of the earth;"
And Whereas, it has always been the reverent habit of the people of the United States to turn in humble appeal to Almighty God for His guidance in the affairs of their common life;

Now, Therefore, I, Woodrow Wilson, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim Thursday, the thirtieth day of May, a day already freighted with sacred and stimulating memories, a day of public humiliation, prayer and fasting, and do exhort my fellow-citizens of all faiths and creeds to assemble on that day in their several places of worship and there, as well as in their homes, to pray Almighty God that He may forgive our sins and shortcomings as a people and purify our hearts to see and love the truth, to accept and defend all things that are just and right, and to purpose only those righteous acts and judgments which are in conformity with His will; beseeching Him that He will give victory to our armies as they fight for freedom, wisdom to those who take counsel on our behalf in these days of dark struggle and perplexity, and steadfastness to our people to make sacrifice to the utmost in support of what is just and true, bringing us at last the peace in which men's hearts can be at rest because it is founded upon mercy, justice and good will.

In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done in the District of Columbia this eleventh day of May, in the year of our Lord Nineteen hundred and eighteen and of the independence of the United States the one hundred and forty-second.

So, in conclusion my friends, based on what I have shown from the bible that soldiers are His servants and they bless our nation or at least are unwitting servants of righteousness and further, that it was to beseech the Lord for forgiveness as THE PURPOSE FOR THE DAY as proven by Woodrow Wilson's proclamation above, I ask you one and all--- should we observe Memorial day in our churches as it was ordained in the proclamation above? You decide.

 

[Sword]

I would rather take out a day to support the soldiers who are exposing the horrific crimes that our goverments are doing in illegal wars. IE syria, Afgan. Iraq. And many more.

 

[bbyrd009]

If I were to agree with the OP just in the slightest I believe I would hear the rattlings of a thousand graves throughout these mountains to my shame.

when the real shame is likely in having defined "service" as "to one's country, with a gun and violence," hmm.

 

[Sword]

So, in conclusion my friends, based on what I have shown from the bible that soldiers are His servants and they bless our nation or at least are unwitting servants of righteousness

Was slaugtering the native indian righteousness? Just over 100 years ago. No nations attacked your nation. But your nation attacked and is still attacking today. And it is not in the name of God.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all. glancing over a few responses. question, "is not everything under the Lord Jesus feet?", including veteran day and any other day. Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ". because, 1 Corinthians 6:12 "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any".