Should we pray to God or Jesus or both?

[Butch5]

Butch, your tripe grows tiresome.

According to you Jesus is God but in your book He is just "a" God, not "the" God.

As you said in another thread, He is but a member of the "royal family" but not the head of that family.

As far as His importance He is relegated to the bench in comparison with 'God the Father.'

Pray to God the Father but not Jesus. Got it now. Thanks.

I do not know what the color of the sky is in your world but I hope never to find out.

Good luck to you.

So, we get the ad Hominem from you also? What gets tiresome is the word games. I've asked you repeatedly for definitions and you didn't give them yet you expect people to be able to answer your questions.

The fact of the matter is that you cannot present an argument against the evidence so you attempt to discredit me, a logical fallacy.

I've made statements, I've shown the early church understanding, and I've explained what I meant. You've yet to do that.

I've used Jesus' own words, it was He who said, "The Father is greater than I". Maybe it's not me that doesn't understand.

You're playing a silly game. Jesus is clearly "equal with God" because He is God.

Philippians 2:5-6 (NKJV)
[sup]5 [/sup]Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, [sup]6 [/sup]who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

I could give you the early church understanding of that passage, but I don't think it would matter, since you don't accept the Scripures, other than those you choose.

It's clear that you are denying that Jesus is God.

Still no reply to the evidence?

 

[Duckybill]

So, we get the ad Hominem from you also? What gets tiresome is the word games. I've asked you repeatedly for definitions and you didn't give them yet you expect people to be able to answer your questions.

The fact of the matter is that you cannot present an argument against the evidence so you attempt to discredit me, a logical fallacy.

I've made statements, I've shown the early church understanding, and I've explained what I meant. You've yet to do that.

I've used Jesus' own words, it was He who said, "The Father is greater than I". Maybe it's not me that doesn't understand.

It is you who are playing "word games".

I could give you the early church understanding of that passage, but I don't think it would matter, since you don't accept the Scripures, other than those you choose.

My faith is not in "the early church". It is in God's Word.

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" [sup]29 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Still no reply to the evidence?

Speaking of Jesus:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

 

[Butch5]

It is you who are playing "word games".

Then give your definition

My faith is not in "the early church". It is in God's Word.

Well, let me ask you a question. How do you know that what you are reading is God's word?

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" [sup]29 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Speaking of Jesus:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

Still no argument against the evidence?

 

[Duckybill]

Then give your definition

How many times do you want me to give it???

Well, let me ask you a question. How do you know that what you are reading is God's word?

By faith.

Still no argument against the evidence?

Since you didn't even comment on the Scriptures I just gave, it must be YOU who has no 'evidence'. I have plenty of evidence that Jesus is God.


Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [sup]7 [/sup]Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

[Butch5]

How many times do you want me to give it???

Just once, I've been waiting since you began. What does "God" mean?

By faith.

By faith? So, you don't know then? I didn't asking you how you believe it. I asked you how do you know that what you have is God's word?

Since you didn't even comment on the Scriptures I just gave, it must be YOU who has no 'evidence'. I have plenty of evidence that Jesus is God.


Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Fatherr, Prince of Peace. [sup]7 [/sup]Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Why wold I respond to proof texting? Random verse of Scripture pulled out of context do not present an argument, especially when there in no commentary. I don't read minds, I don't necessarily automatically understand how you perceive a passage of Scripture, therefor if you give no commentary all I can do is make an assumption.

As I said before, proof texting does not lead to an understanding of Scripture. Anyone can believe something and grab a verse or two to support it. The question is, is that verse or two in context. If you want to have a discussion simply form an argument that addresses the evidence that I have presented. I've given the Scriptures where Jesus Himself said, "The Father is greater than I", I gave the Scripture where Jesus prayed that His followers would be one as he and the Father are one. I presented the Scripture that show that no one knows the day or hour of Christ's return but the Father. I gave the early church evidence that shows that they considered "Oneness" heresy. Please present and argument that addresses this evidence

 

[Foreigner]

Ducky, I appreciate the scripture you provided from John:

"Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God! Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." - John 20:28-29

Many Bible translations can vary but all major translations (KJV, NIV, ESV, NASB, NLT, ISV, AKJV, ASV, etc.) quote Thomas exactly: "My Lord and my God."

Jesus didn't feel the need to correct Thomas because he was right...

 

[Duckybill]

Just once, I've been waiting since you began. What does "God" mean?

Already did, but I will again.

Definition of GOD
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe

http://www.merriam-w.../dictionary/god

By faith? So, you don't know then? I didn't asking you how you believe it. I asked you how do you know that what you have is God's word?

I started out totally by faith. Now I know, but it's still by faith. How about you?

Why wold I respond to proof texting? Random verse of Scripture pulled out of context do not present an argument, especially when there in no commentary. I don't read minds, I don't necessarily automatically understand how you perceive a passage of Scripture, therefor if you give no commentary all I can do is make an assumption.

As I said before, proof texting does not lead to an understanding of Scripture. Anyone can believe something and grab a verse or two to support it. The question is, is that verse or two in context. If you want to have a discussion simply form an argument that addresses the evidence that I have presented. I've given the Scriptures where Jesus Himself said, "The Father is greater than I", I gave the Scripture where Jesus prayed that His followers would be one as he and the Father are one. I presented the Scripture that show that no one knows the day or hour of Christ's return but the Father. I gave the early church evidence that shows that they considered "Oneness" heresy. Please present and argument that addresses this evidence

Jesus is God whether you believe it or not. Jesus speaking:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.