Should we pray to God or Jesus or both?

[Duckybill]

Nothing is "equal with God" but God. God cannot be divided. There is only one God. Jesus is God, as is the Father and Holy Spirit. He is perfect. The Son is no less perfect than the Father.

John 5:18 (NKJV)
[sup]18 [/sup]Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

 

[Butch5]

Nothing is "equal with God" but God. God cannot be divided. There is only one God. Jesus is God, as is the Father and Holy Spirit. He is perfect. The Son is no less perfect than the Father.

John 5:18 (NKJV)
[sup]18 [/sup]Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Duckybill,

We need to keep the Scriptures in context. You've posted passages that (I believe) you think counter those that I have posted. That is not a proper form of exegesis. We don't pick the passages that we think support us and ignore those that present trouble to our doctrines. We must look at "ALL" of the passgaes on a given subject and come to an understanding that reconciled "ALL" of them. Above you presented the words of hte Pharisees, I have presented the words of Christ Himself.

John 14:28 ( KJV )
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1esus Himself said the Father is great than I. Please explain how this could be if they are but one person.

 

[Duckybill]

We must look at "ALL" of the passgaes on a given subject and come to an understanding that reconciled "ALL" of them. Above you presented the words of hte Pharisees, I have presented the words of Christ Himself.

Try reading it again. It doesn't say it's "the words of hte Pharisees".

John 5:18 (NKJV)
[sup]18 [/sup]Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 14:28 ( KJV )
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1esus Himself said the Father is great than I. Please explain how this could be if they are but one person.

Honestly, it sounds like you don't know if Jesus is God or not.

 

[Selene]

Wouldn't "Almighty God" refer to the Father. Almighty means that there is none mightier, correct? Isn't the Father above the Son?

Actually, "Almighty God" and "Mighty God" are referred to the Father according to some of the Scriptures.

Genesis 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty [God] of Jacob; (from thence [is] the shepherd, the stone of Israel

Jeremiah 32:18 Thou shewest loving kindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, [is] his name.

Therefore, Jesus who is also called "Mighty God" is the same as the Father.

 

[Butch5]

Actually, "Almighty God" and "Mighty God" are referred to the Father according to some of the Scriptures.

Genesis 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty [God] of Jacob; (from thence [is] the shepherd, the stone of Israel

Jeremiah 32:18 Thou shewest loving kindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, [is] his name.

Therefore, Jesus who is also called "Mighty God" is the same as the Father.

Yes, Jesus is a mighty God. That does not make Him the Father. It is amazing how Christians will take a verse or two and post them to support what they say and ignore a multitude of other passages. I have posted quote a few passages showing that Jesus and the Father are not the same being. What you are proposing is called "Oness", it is not the Scriptural nor the historical definition of the Trinity.

 

[Duckybill]

Yes, Jesus is a mighty God.

How about THE mighty God?

 

[Selene]

Yes, Jesus is a mighty God. That does not make Him the Father. It is amazing how Christians will take a verse or two and post them to support what they say and ignore a multitude of other passages. I have posted quote a few passages showing that Jesus and the Father are not the same being. What you are proposing is called "Oness", it is not the Scriptural nor the historical definition of the Trinity.

The concept of the Trinity means that God is three persons in one. That means that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same and yet different. In other words, the Father is BOTH equal and yet greater than the Son. The problem here is that you are trying to understand God according to your own limited human logic. You think that God can be understood according to human logic, when He cannot. A finite creature cannot comprehend something that is infinite in nature. We know and accept God to be three persons in one because that has been revealed to all Christians. To believe that the Father is a deity, and that the Son is another deity is only resorting to paganism who believe in two or multiple gods.

 

[Butch5]

The concept of the Trinity means that God is three persons in one. That means that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same and yet different. In other words, the Father is BOTH equal and yet greater than the Son. The problem here is that you are trying to understand God according to your own limited human logic. You think that God can be understood according to human logic, when He cannot. A finite creature cannot comprehend something that is infinite in nature. We know and accept God to be three persons in one because that has been revealed to all Christians. To believe that the Father is a deity, and that the Son is another deity is only resorting to paganism who believe in two or multiple gods.

Again, you are proposing "Oneness" . You are making statements without any supporting evidence. Where does Scripture say that human logic cannot understand the Trinity? You say that the Father, Son and holy Spirit are one and the same yet different. That is a contradiction, doesn't that Bible say that God is not a God of confusion, yet that is exactly what you are proposing.

What I have presented is the historic view of the Trinity. It can be traced all the way beck to Clement and Ignatius. Clement was a fellow traveler of Paul.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us?

Justin Martyr 160 AD

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Chap. VI.—Charge of Atheism Refuted. Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.


Why are you talking about multiple gods? I have not said anything about multiple gods. I said one God, three persons. The same thing that you posted. The difference is that you said three person are one. I explained the three persons.

How about THE mighty God?

if you want an answer define "God"

 

[Duckybill]

Butch, did you forget the eternal Hell? It's quite common for those who deny Jesus/God to also deny the eternal fire, such as JW's, SDA's, etc.

 

[Selene]

Again, you are proposing "Oneness" . You are making statements without any supporting evidence. Where does Scripture say that human logic cannot understand the Trinity? You say that the Father, Son and holy Spirit are one and the same yet different. That is a contradiction, doesn't that Bible say that God is not a God of confusion, yet that is exactly what you are proposing.

What I have presented is the historic view of the Trinity. It can be traced all the way beck to Clement and Ignatius. Clement was a fellow traveler of Paul.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us?

Justin Martyr 160 AD

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Chap. VI.—Charge of Atheism Refuted. Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.


Why are you talking about multiple gods? I have not said anything about multiple gods. I said one God, three persons. The same thing that you posted. The difference is that you said three person are one. I explained the three persons.
if you want an answer define "God"

Regarding Justin Martyr, this is what you left out:

<LI>150 AD Justin Martyr "But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 6) Notice what else Justin say: "Worship God alone." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 16) "Whence to God alone we render worship." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 17).

If you believe that God the Father is the only one we should worship, that is NOT what Justin Martyr says. He stated that we also worship and adore Jesus and the Holy Spirit along with the Father. Why? Because all three are one and the same.


Other Early Church Fathers supporting the Holy Trinity:

<LI>140 AD Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16).
<LI>177 AD Athenagoras "The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by `the Son,' I will tell you briefly: He is the first- begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things" (Plea for the Christians 10:2-4).

<LI>190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father." (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14)

 

[Duckybill]

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" [sup]29 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

 

[Butch5]

Regarding Justin Martyr, this is what you left out:

<LI>150 AD Justin Martyr "But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 6) Notice what else Justin say: "Worship God alone." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 16) "Whence to God alone we render worship." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 17).

If you believe that God the Father is the only one we should worship, that is NOT what Justin Martyr says. He stated that we also worship and adore Jesus and the Holy Spirit along with the Father. Why? Because all three are one and the same.


Other Early Church Fathers supporting the Holy Trinity:

<LI>140 AD Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16).
<LI>177 AD Athenagoras "The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by `the Son,' I will tell you briefly: He is the first- begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things" (Plea for the Christians 10:2-4).

<LI>190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father." (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14)

So, then you see that there are three, the Father, the Son and the holy Spirit. They are one in unity as I have already stated. However, I've also shown that they are three beings.

Regarding Worshiping, I did not say that we shouldn't worship Jesus, what I said was that I didn't see it in the Scriptures. I am aware of what Justin and the others say regarding worshipping Jesus, but if it is not in the Scriptures then it doesn't matter. The Early church writers are a treasured resource for the faith, but they must be confirmed against Scripture.

You've still got many issues with the Scriptures, for instance, the Father is the unbegooten God, Jesus is the only begotten God. One being cannot be both begotten and unbegotten.

 

[Duckybill]

Regarding Worshiping, I did not say that we shouldn't worship Jesus, what I said was that I didn't see it in the Scriptures.

Then you should probably have checked before you come here telling people they are wrong about the Scriptures. Don't you think? How can anyone not know that Jesus was worshiped in the NT???

You've still got many issues with the Scriptures, for instance, the Father is the unbegooten God, Jesus is the only begotten God. One being cannot be both begotten and unbegotten.

We have many issues?

 

[Selene]

So, then you see that there are three, the Father, the Son and the holy Spirit. They are one in unity as I have already stated. However, I've also shown that they are three beings.

Regarding Worshiping, I did not say that we shouldn't worship Jesus, what I said was that I didn't see it in the Scriptures. I am aware of what Justin and the others say regarding worshipping Jesus, but if it is not in the Scriptures then it doesn't matter. The Early church writers are a treasured resource for the faith, but they must be confirmed against Scripture.

You've still got many issues with the Scriptures, for instance, the Father is the unbegooten God, Jesus is the only begotten God. One being cannot be both begotten and unbegotten.

And I have been telling you that God is three persons in One. And yes, as you can see, the Early Church including Justin Martyr says to also worship Jesus because they believed in the Holy Trinity.

My brother, not everything is found in Scripture. St. John pointed out that there are many things that Jesus said that was not written down (See John 21:25). Scripture also said that the Truth is found in the Church that Christ built because the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (See 1 Timothy 3:15). And the Early Church Fathers like Justin Martyr and many others believed in the Holy Trinity.

 

[whitestone]

Jesus is my Lord and my God. I know of no other God.

(Joh 16:25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

(Joh 16:26) At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

(Joh 16:27) For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

(Joh 16:28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

(Joh 16:29) His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

 

[Butch5]

-- Apparently you are among this group, as well.

The definition that Ducky provides is correct.

Jesus is God.

Did you read the question? Not "who" God is. The question was, What does the word God mean? So apparently I'm not it the group.

 

[Foreigner]

Butch, your tripe grows tiresome.

According to you Jesus is God but in your book He is just "a" God, not "the" God.

As you said in another thread, He is but a member of the "royal family" but not the head of that family.

As far as His importance He is relegated to the bench in comparison with 'God the Father.'

Pray to God the Father but not Jesus. Got it now. Thanks.

I do not know what the color of the sky is in your world but I hope never to find out.

Good luck to you.

 

[Duckybill]

According to you Jesus is God but in your book He is just "a" God, not "the" God.

That's how I understood him also.

 

[Butch5]

Try reading it again. It doesn't say it's "the words of hte Pharisees".

Why did the Pharisees want to kill Him? It was because after they heard His words "THEY" said that He was makning HImself equal with God. That's what you quoted, I quoted Jesus Himself.

John 5:18 (NKJV)
[sup]18 [/sup]Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Honestly, it sounds like you don't know if Jesus is God or not.

No, what this is, is a logical fallacy. It's an Ad hominem. Since you cannot refute the evidence that I have provided you, you attempt to question my understanding of the issue.

Then you should probably have checked before you come here telling people they are wrong about the Scriptures. Don't you think? How can anyone not know that Jesus was worshiped in the NT???

It seems from this statement that you did know that I had said this. Don't you think it would be wise to at least know what I said before you began to argue with me? You've been telling me I'm worng yet it appears you didn't even know what I said. How do you know that I'm wrong if you don't know what I said?

We have many issues?

I understand now, why no one listened to your arguments in the thread on the use of violence.

That statement was made to Selene. However, if you hold that same position then, yes, you also have many issues with the Scriptures

And I have been telling you that God is three persons in One. And yes, as you can see, the Early Church including Justin Martyr says to also worship Jesus because they believed in the Holy Trinity.

My brother, not everything is found in Scripture. St. John pointed out that there are many things that Jesus said that was not written down (See John 21:25). Scripture also said that the Truth is found in the Church that Christ built because the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (See 1 Timothy 3:15). And the Early Church Fathers like Justin Martyr and many others believed in the Holy Trinity.

Yes, you said the Jesus was the Father. That is "Not" what the early church believed. I am aware of what Justin said. However, I've said before. Just because someone says something or believes something that doesn't make it so. That is the reason Christians are so mixed up today, they just accept what they are told. The Protestant church has more than 19,000 sects and denominations because Christians do seek to reconcile the Scriptures, they just proof text.

 

[Duckybill]

Why did the Pharisees want to kill Him? It was because after they heard His words "THEY" said that He was makning HImself equal with God. That's what you quoted, I quoted Jesus Himself.

You're playing a silly game. Jesus is clearly "equal with God" because He is God.

Philippians 2:5-6 (NKJV)
[sup]5 [/sup]Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, [sup]6 [/sup]who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

No, what this is, is a logical fallacy. It's an Ad hominem. Since you cannot refute the evidence that I have provided you, you attempt to question my understanding of the issue.

It's clear that you are denying that Jesus is God.