Should women be punished for abortion (if Roe v Wade overturned)?

[Josho]

Abortion is no different to murder, even in the most difficult of circumstances, there was an article on some Christian website, about a woman who was raped, she was greatly upset of course, but she then forgave the man who raped her, she decided not to abort the child, but she decided to give birth to it and she raised up her child with love, that is an example that should be followed. If abortion is against the law, then it should be punished, but those who are effected by it should also forgive the person who chose to abort a child. But God has the ultimate decision on judgement day, and if you go unrepentant, it's up to God on whether you enter the pearly gates or not, none of us have a say in that, that's God's decision. But the great thing is forgiveness is always there, all you have to do is admit your wrongs, and ask for God's forgiveness, it's there but it shall not be abused though, it's not a ticket to sin as much as you want, because that's not true repentance.

 

[mjrhealth]

In my opinion abortion should be human right. Bearing an unwanted child is not an easy task and it can ruin woman's life for good.

people seem to have a funny thing, actually its not os funny thing abiut God and Grace, They place God on the same playing field as a human and expect Him to act as such, it is so easy for christians to judge one untill teh shoe is on the other foot. If it was up to christians to judge mankind no one not even themselves would enter into heaven, but God is just, it is a sad state of affairs this thing could "christianity" just any other religion , like all the others. its suposed to be "faith in God". not men.

 

[Lil_Worried]

LW,

Jesus disagrees. He said, "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment" (Matt 5:21 ESV).

I'm supporting Jesus' view and not going with any other compromise.

Oz

I don't find that murder since the life hasn't begun yet. What about all those sperm that dies without ever entering the egg? At what point does the life of a new human being begin?
That way we can say using condom is same as masturbation and should be prohibited?

 

[OzSpen]

I don't find that murder since the life hasn't begun yet. What about all those sperm that dies without ever entering the egg? At what point does the life of a new human being begin?
That way we can say using condom is same as masturbation and should be prohibited?

LW,

You provide not one shred of biological or biblical evidence to support your claim. Now demonstrate your theory to us with biological science and biblical exposition.

The condom-masturbation suggestion falls flat before the evidence I have asked you to provide.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Abortion is no different to murder, even in the most difficult of circumstances, there was an article on some Christian website, about a woman who was raped, she was greatly upset of course, but she then forgave the man who raped her, she decided not to abort the child, but she decided to give birth to it and she raised up her child with love, that is an example that should be followed. If abortion is against the law, then it should be punished, but those who are effected by it should also forgive the person who chose to abort a child. But God has the ultimate decision on judgement day, and if you go unrepentant, it's up to God on whether you enter the pearly gates or not, none of us have a say in that, that's God's decision. But the great thing is forgiveness is always there, all you have to do is admit your wrongs, and ask for God's forgiveness, it's there but it shall not be abused though, it's not a ticket to sin as much as you want, because that's not true repentance.

Josho,

However, you need to demonstrate to us that a foetus is a human life from conception, using biology and biblical data. Can you do that so that we have evidence on which to base our claims?

Oz

 

[Josho]

Josho,

However, you need to demonstrate to us that a foetus is a human life from conception, using biology and biblical data. Can you do that so that we have evidence on which to base our claims?

Oz

Well Oz look at it this way as soon as the sperm hits the egg, we are the clay in our makers hands, the Lord is the potter, if we choose to abort it, we are basically destroying the work in our maker's hands, he even knew from the very beginning before this earth was created every person he was gonna create, or was gonna start to create. Do you think it's alright to destroy the work in our maker's hands? I do not believe playing against nature or God's work is right and abortion is playing against both while also destroying the work in progress in God's hands. Could you imagine the consequences if Jeremiah was aborted? or if David was aborted? You gotta ask yourselves the important question "What is God's will for an unborn child?"

Psalm 139:13-16
For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be

Jeremiah 1:4-5
The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations"

Isaiah 44:24
"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the One who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone . . .'"

Isaiah 64:8
"But now, O LORD, Thou art our Father, we are the clay, and Thou our potter; and all of us are the work of Thy hand"

 

[OzSpen]

Well Oz look at it this way as soon as the sperm hits the egg, we are the clay in our makers hands, the Lord is the potter, if we choose to abort it, we are basically destroying the work in our maker's hands, he even knew from the very beginning before this earth was created every person he was gonna create, or was gonna start to create. Do you think it's alright to destroy the work in our maker's hands? I do not believe playing against nature or God's work is right and abortion is playing against both while also destroying the work in progress in God's hands. Could you imagine the consequences if Jeremiah was aborted? or if David was aborted? You gotta ask yourselves the important question "What is God's will for an unborn child?"

Psalm 139:13-16
For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be

Jeremiah 1:4-5
The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations"

Isaiah 44:24
"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the One who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone . . .'"

Isaiah 64:8
"But now, O LORD, Thou art our Father, we are the clay, and Thou our potter; and all of us are the work of Thy hand"

Josho,

These are excellent verses to confirm that the one in the womb was a human being: David, Jeremiah and Isaiah. However, I don't think Isa 64:8 (ESV) affirms that.

Let's look more closely at Psalm 139 (ESV), Even though it is using poetic and figurative language, it states 4 importan truths about human existence in the womb:

1. Note v. 13: you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb’. Even though the Bible is not a medical textbook, this verse makes it very clear that ‘me’ is in the womb. Thus, the unborn child is a human being who can be referred to as ‘me’ (speaking of David, the writer of the Psalm). We get a similar message in Job 10:8 (ESV), ‘Your hands fashioned and made me…’

2. Observe how David, the Psalmist, refers to himself:

a. ‘Lord, you have … known me’ (v. 1). This is in the past tense.
b. ‘You know when I sit down and when I rise up’ etc (vv. 2-3), present tense.
c. ‘Your right hand will hold me’ (v. 10), future tense, and
d. ‘You formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb’ (v. 13), pre-natal.

In all 4 dimensions of his existence, the Psalmist David refers to himself using the same personal pronouns, ‘I’ and ‘me’. So the human being in the womb is the same human being outside the womb. Remember that David was writing as a mature human being – a grown person – but he has the same personal identity as the foetus in the womb. He’s the same human being from embryo to grown adult. (I was alerted to this distinction by John Stott, Issues Facing Christians Today, Marshalls, 1984:287).

Other biblical passages speak of the prenatal and postnatal continuity of the human being(Job 31:15; Psalm 119:73). God chose Jeremiah before birth and sanctified him in his mother’s womb (Jer.1:5). David recognised his identity began with conception (Psalm 51:5).

In the New Testament, when Mary and Elizabeth met, both being pregnant, Elizabeth’s baby (John the Baptist) ‘leaped in her womb’ in salutation of Mary’s baby, Jesus. Of special significance in Luke’s account is that he used the same word brephos (NT Greek) for an unborn child (Lk 1:41, 44), the new-born baby (Lk 2:12, 16) and the little ones brought to Jesus to bless (Lk 18:15).

The most startling confirmation of the sanctity of prenatal life is the incarnation of Jesus Christ. His personal history on earth began, not when he was ‘born of the Virgin Mary, but when he was ‘conceived by the Holy Spirit’ (see Matt.1:18, 20).

Therefore, since Jesus the God-man (true man) was present as a human being in his mother’s womb, it follows that other human beings must be alive and in existence from the first moment of conception. See also Heb 2:17 (ESV), ‘Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people’.

There is more biblical evidence in support of the child being a child in the womb, but that’s for another post.

Oz

 

[Born_Again]

Put it into perspective... How does that woman know if she just aborted the person that would have found a cure for cancer?

The same people who would advocate abortion say this about a cow slaughtered for meat "They just want to live. Meat is murder!!". How backwards is that?

 

[OzSpen]

Put it into perspective... How does that woman know if she just aborted the person that would have found a cure for cancer?

The same people who would advocate abortion say this about a cow slaughtered for meat "They just want to live. Meat is murder!!". How backwards is that?

BA,

I don't find this pragmatic perspective helpful in taking a stand against abortion because we could just as easily say, 'How does that woman know if she just aborted the person who would be the instigator of another September 11 or someone like Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin or Pol Pot?'
Therefore, I find it important to demonstrate that human beings are not animals.

Let's look at some medical evidence for when life begins:
When does human life begin?
This is the fiery issue that will cause a storm in conversations if you dare to raise it.

Leading obstetrician gynaecologist and medical researcher, Dr Landrum B. Shettles, says the real core of the debate over when life begins is “the clash between an ethic that makes the sanctity of human life an absolute and a new ethic that renders that life relative and sometimes expendable” (Shettles with Rorvik 1983:107).

Medical Aspects

In 1970, in the midst of the United States’ abortion debate (it was legalised in 1973), the editors of the journal California Medicine (the official journal of the California Medical Association), noticed “the curious avoidance of the scientific fact, which everyone really knows, that human life begins at conception and is continuous whether intra- or extra-uterine until death” (in Davis 1985:137).

The U.S. Senate Judiciary Subcommittee, in 1981, held hearings on when life begins. The following are samples of evidence submitted by the medical profession (in Shettles with Rorvik (1983:113-114):

Dr Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris:

When does life begin? . . . Life has a very long history, but each individual has a very neat beginning, the moment of its conception . . . To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. The human nature of the human being, conception to old age, is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.

Dr Watson A. Bowes, Jr, of the University of Colorado Medical School: “The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter — the beginning is conception.”

Dr Alfred Bongiovanni of the University of Pennsylvania Medical School, after noting that standard medical texts have long taught that human life begins at conception, added: 'I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty ... is not a human being'.

Dr Micheline Matthews-Roth, research associate of Harvard University Medical School: “It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception.”

Professor Hymie Gordon, chairman of the Department of Medical Genetics at the Mayo Clinic (Rochester, Minnesota): “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

Dr McCarthy De Mere, a practising physician and a law professor at the University of Tennessee: “The exact moment of the beginning [of] personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception.”

The medical breakthrough came in the 1960s when Francis Crick and James Watson discovered the genetic code (DNA).

The genotype — the inherited characteristics of a unique human being — is established in the conception process and will remain in force for the entire life of that individual. No other event in biological life is so decisive as this one . . . The genotype that is conferred at conception does not merely start life, it defines life (in Shettles with Rorvik 1983:36-37).

Biologically, human life begins when the sperm merges with the ovum to form the zygote, containing the full set of 46 chromosomes necessary to create new human life. “The haploid sex cells (ova or spermatozoa) are parts of potential human life. The zygote is human life” (Shettles with Rorvik 1983:40, emphasis in original). The First International Conference on Abortion in Washington D.C., 1967, declared: “We can find no point in time between the union of sperm and egg and the birth of an infant at which point we can say that this in not a human life” (in Stott 1984:286). [taken from my article, Abortion and Life: A Christian Perspective]

Oz

Works consulted

Davis, J. J. 1985, Evangelical Ethics: Issues Facing the Church Today, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Phillipsburg, New Jersey.

Shettles, L. B. with D. Rorvik 1983 , Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI.

Stott, J. 1984, Issues Facing Christians Today, Marshalls, Basingstoke, Hants.

 

[epostle1]

We know what the word “sacrifice” means. It means the surrender of something precious to the god in whom a person believes. Sacrifices have been part of world religions since the dawn of recorded history. Without exception, the deities of all the religions of the ancient world demanded sacrifices in their honor. The Egyptians and Babylonians, the Greeks and Romans, the deities of pre-Christian India and of the continent of Africa required that their adherents offer what we call sacrifices in their name.

What is less well known, however, is that these religions also required the sacrifice of children as an oblation and even as a condition, for obtaining blessings from the gods. ...the Lord spoke through the prophet Jeremiah, charging the Jews of imitating the pagans in their practice of child homicide. Said the Lord, “They have built high places for Baal to immolate their sons in fire as holocausts to Baal: such a thing as I neither commanded nor spoke of, nor did it ever enter my mind.”

As we read statements like foregoing, we ask ourselves: how could human beings be so deluded as to seriously believe that their gods required human sacrifice as a condition for receiving divine favors? The key word is “deluded.” Thirty years of teaching comparative religion has taught me that there is no limit to the irrational, indeed insane, practices that religious mythology will not put into practice as a mandate from the deities in whom they believed. Thus we read in the history of the Aztecs in South America before Columbus that they would kill up to ten thousand children on a major feast day in honor of one of their gods. Although seldom mentioned, infanticide as a religious ritual was practiced in India before its colonization by Great Britain.

Abortion as the widespread practice that it has become today is incredibly a religious practice. It is inspired by the evil spirits who, in Christian terms, were and are the malignant deities of paganism. These deities, often goddesses, demanded the sacrifice of children to be propitiated. Unless children were killed and offered to these gods, they would avenge their anger against the people in the most devastating ways.

...we know that behind the murder of unborn children is the superhuman mind and malevolent will of Satan and his minions. To know this is to also know that only divine power is a match for the demonic power behind abortion. This divine power is the power of the God who became man in order, as He told us, to conquer the devil as master of the world...

Abortion as a Pagan Sacrifice

 

[shnarkle]

Row v. Wade won't be enough to warrant punishment for women who acquire abortions as it doesn't establish the State as having an interest in the unborn. Doe v. Bolton is what would have to be overturned. Were that to happen it would be no different than if someone walked up and murdered someone else who is a member of society. The law would then show that the State has a vested interest in the life of the unborn citizen.