Sin & Death

[Clarity]

True, but 'truth's' other comments would make Jesus a sinner.

I listed a few of his comments in the Romans 6:9-11 thread. They should nauseate a Christian.

I appreciate your passion. I get it. However, rest easy... 'Truth will always out in the end'
As you say, you've been studying this subject for many years and maybe you see conclusions as a result that nauseate you.
Maybe you need to sit back and allow others to become nauseated by going through a process you have already undergone.

I've probably said enough for now. Thanks for listening.

 

[Duckybill]

I appreciate your passion. I get it. However, rest easy... 'Truth will always out in the end'
As you say, you've been studying this subject for many years and maybe you see conclusions as a result that nauseate you.
Maybe you need to sit back and allow others to become nauseated by going through a process you have already undergone.

I've probably said enough for now. Thanks for listening.

True indeed, but do we sit back and watch Satan work?

2 Timothy 4:2-4 (ESV)
[sup]2 [/sup]preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. [sup]3 [/sup]For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, [sup]4 [/sup]and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

 

[Alethos]

Where is Forgiveness found?

We find it was "for the remission of sins that are past", that is where men and women have believed. Abraham looked afar off and could see the day of Jesus Christ and was glad. John 8:56

This "Remission" of sin is not a legal right which one can claim but a gift of grace, "through the forbearance of God".

It is worthwhile dwelling on this phrase "through the “forbearance” of God". Rom 3:25,26,27,28,29-31

Of course if our remission of sins is likened to a “cold” settlement of debt there would be no "forbearance", if the payment had been made like that of a transaction, what is the cost?

God "forgives for Christ's sake" Eph. 4:32.

This statement requires us to understand with knowledge and great affection.

This is the sole issue in question. God's supremacy has been vindicated in Christ, a righteous foundation has been laid on which He can offer total forgiveness without the compromise of His wisdom and righteousness. The only way He can extend salvation is in our submission to the declaration of His righteousness in Christ’s death. Our humble identification with that work is most important, if not a matter of life and death. All our affections and interlect ought to be directed into this vital work.

I will leave you with a question:

Who do we identify ourselves today with the "death" of Christ?

 

[Alethos]

Baptism has been provided as the means of identification. We are "baptised into his (Jesus) death" (Rom. 6:3), and buried with him in baptism Col. 2:12, where we receive forgiveness of sins "through the forbearance (the kindness and graciousness) of God", who is pleased with our decision to conform to the image of his Son, one which was found in humiliation and exalted in Glory.

The humble act of baptism (full submersion) speaks wonderfully to the abasement of man and the open recognition of Gods supremacy. It is here the law and mercy is fully reconciled in one action.

The Holy Scriptures provide us with a clear description as the how this act of baptism becomes effective in the believers life.

It occurs twice in Paul's letter to the Romans; in two different cases both expressions have been already provided in these studies.

1. Baptism is to "declare His (God's) righteousness for (and in order to) the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Rom 3:25)

2. Paul tells us baptism "condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom 8:3)

It has been stated many times that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was a "declaration of the righteousness of God" and a "condemnation of sin in the flesh", where God declared to the whole world "how" He dealt with sin. It was as though in this death He proclaimed this declaration to all inhabitants when the body was nailed to the cross:

We not being present at the Lords crucifixion we may not "fully" appreciate how expressive this condemnation of human nature was revealed by God, however, God according to His righteousness made it very clear that "sins" flesh is fit only for destruction.

 

[Alethos]

The shedding of blood was the taking away of life and it was in this event that such a beautiful declaration of righteousness was hidden.

I say “hidden” because the declaration is only for those who dare search, look and seek out as one searching for hidden treasure. One must gaze into the blood to find the exact substance of His declaration.

For instance; many will not allow themselves to believe Jesus’ body was under the dominion of death because of sin, not his personal sin but that of the original pair. Now to make atonement, could God have sacrificed an angel? Or a new creature from the ground?

No, we would have confusion.

It was for this “very” reason that Jesus was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3), that he might partake of the very flesh and blood of man (Heb. 2:14).

Imagine God as the great Surgeon and Jesus as His patient. God determined from the beginning that a sinful man from two earthly parents would never be able to receive His remedy. So sending His son in the flesh directly suffering from it its terrible affects would condemn sin in the flesh.

God in sending His son with this nature of “flesh and blood” spent 33 years operating (spiritually) on his character, perfecting a pure sound mind through suffering. This produced a morally sinless son by allowing His Father to operate even second of every day; together they put to death the “law in his members”, God was able to hold captive every single rebellious thought and remove its power “sin”.

However this operation came at a great cost to both Father and son. The pain and suffering over these 33 years, which ended in shed blood. We will never fully appreciated nor understand the depth of their love to bring about such profound salvation. 2 Cor 9:15

Our victory over the illness of death was cured because Jesus “came in the flesh” and overcame its propensity to sin. While his flesh was tainted with hereditary death, this was something totally outside his control in every way, for it was his Fathers will that he be born of a woman Gal 4:4.

Imagine if we turned our eyes away from this truth to believe in lies?

If so, with what sacrifice will we gain redemption.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Considering the divinity of Jesus Christ

I appreciate for some time we have been considering the human side of Christ and this has proven difficult for some. The finer details of the Atonement are an essential part of our understanding; its expressions are those which cannot be ignored, likewise as we now consider the divine side of Christ we too must prepare our thinking so as to provide us a complete view.

We find in Isaiah 55 “that God's ways and thoughts are as high above ours as the heaven is high above the earth.” With this in mind we need to also appreciate the work of God in Christ is very lofty, that embodied within His message are principles which are too subtle for the mind of natural man to apprehend or appreciate.

When approaching His Word we acknowledge He is high above the Heavens and we are here on Earth. Here is an essential place to start. With humility we allow the words to speak to us softly, with stillness they come down into our ears.

Nowhere does this more strikingly affect us than Paul's epistle to the Corinthians. Here, we have these beautiful verses:

"Not with the wisdom of word, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross, is to them that perish, foolishness, but unto us who are saved, it is the power of God .... We preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block and unto the Greeks foolishness, but unto them who are called, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God ... God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty, and base things of the world and things which are despised hath God chosen, yea and things which are not to bring to nought things that are, that no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ who of God is made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, that according as it is written "He that glorieth let him glory in the Lord" (1 Cor. 1:17, 23-31).

Here we see another great declaration that Jesus is the work of God in which we are not. The glory in victory over the flesh would be to God and Him alone! Jesus during his ministry not once accepted this Glory. We all at some time or another stolen Glory from the Father; man is all too quick to receive to himself the credit which he believes is his due.

For us to understand the Divine side of Jesus we would need to consider all his words and actions, weighing them we always find the Father is brought forward as the great originator and author in the case. This is his manner in which Jesus spoke:

"I came down from Heaven not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me" (John 7:38).

"I am not come of myself" (John 6:28).

"The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works" (John 14:10).

"I am come in my Father's name" (John 5:43).

"I can of mine own self do nothing" (John 5:30).

"He that sent me is with me" (John 8:29).

"He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father?" (John 14:9).

Also as the Apostles (Eph. 1:5) speaking of the Father, "having predestinated us, unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ TO HIMSELF according to the good pleasure of His will." Again Paul says (Rom. 3:23), "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus". And again, in Rom 11:32 "God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy, upon all." Again, in 2 Corinthians 5:18,19 he tells us that God hath reconciled us unto HIMSELF by Jesus Christ; and that God was in Christ, reconciling the world UNTO HIMSELF. And again, in his letter to Titus 3:4: "The kindness and love of GOD our SAVIOUR toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to HIS MERCY, He saved us". And in Titus 2:11: "For the GRACE OF GOD that bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all men".

These verses express a declaration to us that it was God who was in (the mind) Christ reconciling the world to Himself. And though we poorly reflect this work in ourselves we are called to allow the Father and the Son to operate upon us and our thinking, that we may be made (like Christ the firstborn) His sons and daughters forever.

Alethos

 

[[email protected]]

Sin & Death

Do we truely understand the fallen nature of man and his tendencies/bias toward sin?

Before we start it is best we review some very well known Scriptures in light of this topic. I believe it is essential for us to understand why Jesus Christ was made sin for us. 2 Cor 5:21 and how and why he suffered a crawl death.

If we “calmly” together look at a number of these beautiful verses we begin to see a consistent theme develope:

"He (Jesus) put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb. 9:26).

Of course Heb 2:14 fits like a glove into Heb 9:26 because we have reference to his death in both passages removing the power of sin and death through his sacrifice.

"Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3).

The context here is that Jesus Christ was buried (totally dead) and raised on the third day. And that the Scriptures foretold he would die a horrible death.

"He (Jesus) was wounded (crucifixtion) for our transgressions; he was bruised for our iniquities (sins)" (Isa. 53:5).

"His own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree" (1 Pet. 2:24).

"He was manifested to take away our sins" (1 John 3:5).

"Our Saviour Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all Iniquity (sin)" (Titus 2:13, 14).

"Our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world" (Gal. 1:3, 4).

2 Peter 2:4 provides a link to how this evil world has become evil, which is through lust, and where is the source of lust? Lust comes from the Flesh and nowhere else. 1 John 2:16; James 1:15; Matt 5:28

Romans 6:12 speaks of sin reigning (like a king) in our mortal bodies. Mortal means we are perishing creatures due to sin which leads to death.

Romans 13:14 Speaks about making no provision for our mortal bodies to lust, it is out of lust that sin can be conceived James1:15 which again leads to death .

Galatians 5:19-21 provides a list of actions or works which are born out of the Flesh, styled here “works of the flesh”.

Galatians 5 :16–17 is explicit in that it tells us not to fulfil the “lusts of the Flesh” Fulfilling the lusts which originate out of flesh is called sin, and once sin has occurred we earn or recieve death.

Proverbs 6:25 is a well known verse in regards to lusting after beauty. All because the body has sexual urges which are only found in the flesh. If we go down into a woman and commit adultery we sin.

"This is my (Jesus) blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matt. 26:28).

"Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood" (Rev. 5:9).

These definitions are divinely inspired to show us why Jesus was required to die and the mechanics of Flesh, Lust and Sin.

When you read them you cannot question the work of Jesus Christ on the cross was in relation to mankind in his fallen state. And that what Jesus Christ destroyed on the cross in his death, was sin?

If we do not agree with these verses, please go back and reread them, allow them to penetrate our ears that they may form in us an understanding of why Jesus Christ suffered in the flesh. It is highly important we understand the result of his sufferings was the destruction of sin and death in himself, in his body was this work was done and achieved Heb 2:14.

Sin is the principle offence which God above all things wants to remove from his earth. And we are told through the Holy Spirit in (Rom. 5:12). Paul says, "By one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin".

The above verse is referring to Adam's disobedience in the garden. Notice how death came "by" this disobedience?

It is very plain in the reading the record in Genesis that this was the case. Adam having been created in a good state, (not perfect in the sense of possessing immortality but a state of limbo, good but NEVER very good, because God foreknew his fallen state. It was said to Adam he shouldn’t eat of the tree, which implied a punishment..."In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2:17). When know he broke the command; he disobeyed, and this was sin; for sin and disobedience (in their primary sense) are the same. The consequence is our focus as the sentence of death was passed: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Gen. 3:19). This sentence affected Adam's nature, and became a law the state of it which became "corruptible" and "mortal". His nature became physically a dying nature, and therefore a death-nature, because of sin. Afterwards, children were born to Adam with the result of multiplying men who, having his nature, had also the "sentence of death in themselves" (2 Cor. 1:9), which Rom 5:12 tells us came originally by Adam's sin and because his nature was fallen this passed on to all as an inheritance.

It is the work of the Father to now bring good out of this evil. How would he bring His children back into favour with Himself? (Not every individual of it but ultimately the entire body as a race of people) He purposed to abolish death and to bring life and immortality to light (2 Tim. 1:10). But how was this to be done? Sin had brought “death” and sin now reigned. Clearly the scriptures have told us on numerous times that sin had to be put away, by not holding sin against us, but by forgiving sin.

I hope to complete part two shortly.

Alethos

Your entire argument is disjointed and convoluted.
Even so, it seemed to follow a kind of meandering logic until you wrote:

" Adam having been created in a good state, (not perfect in the sense of possessing immortality but a state of limbo, good but NEVER very good, because God foreknew his fallen state."

At this point, the whole thing fell apart like a house of cards in a hurricane.

You began your initial post with a bushel basket full of scripture references, but when you got to that line you provided none.
Why?
Because there is no Biblical foundation to support the assertion that God "foreknew" Adam's fallen state.

You open a whole bag of worms in this single statement that corrupts everything else you wrote.
The argument then collapses into a discussion about Free Will.

The Bible teaches (beginning in the Garden of Eden), that sin is the result of rebellious choice, a deed in opposition to the revealed will of God.

If there is no Free Will, then there is no choice. If there is no choice, then no sin is committed.
In the absence of Free Will Adam and Eve are reduced to the spiritual level of plants and animals that are unable to rebel against God.

If that is the situation, then there is no need for Christ to die upon the cross.

That Jesus did indeed CHOOSE to die upon the cross in obediance to the will of God, is a divine reaction to the corresponding CHOICE of Adam to disobey.

All this yammering about what God 'foreknew' is preposterous and unfounded rubbish.
If God 'forenew' Adam's choice, then kindly show a scripture to support it.

Otherwise, your entire assertion is false.

 

[Alethos]

Your entire argument is disjointed and convoluted.
Even so, it seemed to follow a kind of meandering logic until you wrote:

" Adam having been created in a good state, (not perfect in the sense of possessing immortality but a state of limbo, good but NEVER very good, because God foreknew his fallen state."

At this point, the whole thing fell apart like a house of cards in a hurricane.

You open a whole bag of worms in this single statement that corrupts everything else you wrote.
The argument then collapses into a discussion about Free Will.

The Bible teaches (beginning in the Garden of Eden), that sin is the result of rebellious choice, a deed in opposition to the revealed will of God.

Agree

If there is no Free Will, then there is no choice. If there is no choice, then no sin is committed.
In the absence of Free Will Adam and Eve are reduced to the spiritual level of plants and animals that are unable to rebel against God.

Agree

If that is the situation, then there is no need for Christ to die upon the cross.

Agree

That Jesus did indeed CHOOSE to die upon the cross in obediance to the will of God, is a divine reaction to the corresponding CHOICE of Adam to disobey.

Agree

All this yammering about what God 'foreknew' is preposterous and unfounded rubbish.
If God 'forenew' Adam's choice, then kindly show a scripture to support it.

Otherwise, your entire assertion is false.

Rjp, thanks for your comments.

You may have misunderstood what I was (trying) to say. In relation to what God had made, He applied the term “very good” speaking of His creation.

Now in the beginning man was in a "very good" state in relation to his nature, but not in his character, which was then unformed.

So physically speaking, you are right he was in a very good state being in harmony with his surroundings, however, his state of mind being that he was a learning creature yet to be filled with the knowledge of God was yet to develope this goodness. An example of this goodness might be seen in the Father’s appraisal of his son at baptism.

As you have also said the free will which Adam possessed before and after his bad choice eventually found him in a sinful position. The "law of sin and death" which afterwards "worked in his members" had not commenced until sin manifested itself through flesh (Rom. 7:23; 8:2). After the fall man no longer was classified as "very good," but the reverse: Jer. 10:23; Mark 7:21-23. Even the Lord, when addressed as "good master" replied: "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God" (Matt. 19:17). Here Jesus is highlighting that in him that is in his flesh dwells no good thing, and it is that fallen state which again you rightly say, Jesus needed on his and our behalf to overcome.

Paul declared: " In me (that is in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18); "The creature (creation) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope, because the creature (creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:20-23).

The incidence of sin had a physical reaction on human nature as God had warned it would (Gen. 2:17; 3:10-11, 14-19)

Paul then teaches that this “natural body” descends into the grave. I believe human nature is essentially the same today as then, in that flesh and blood body is given life by the breath of life; our condition is not in the "very good" condition because sin marred our original condition so that it became sin-prone and death-doomed.

Of course you know that previously death was one set out as a consequence of sin but afterward it became the reality.

But in the beginning man was never mortal nor immortal but as you right say he had free will in both states.

I hope this makes sense?

Alethos

 

[[email protected]]

I have additional problems with your presuppositions and developed logic.....

Now in the beginning man was in a "very good" state in relation to his nature, but not in his character, which was then unformed.

So physically speaking, you are right he was in a very good state being in harmony with his surroundings, however, his state of mind being that he was a learning creature yet to be filled with the knowledge of God was yet to develope this goodness.

You are assuming at the very beginning of your assertion that Adam's character required THE FALL in order to be complete.
That it required the experience of rebellion and sin in order to be fully developed.

The Bible makes it clear that Adam and his wife were fully grown and developed creatures prior to the fall.
It shows by example that they were fully and completely capable of understanding communication from God and of making competent decisions.

Your remark suggests that they were INcompetent until after their disobedience.

The quality and punishment of sin is dependent upon deeds, not an assessment of one's character; competent, sane, or otherwise.

One cannot justify sin before the throne of God by pleading insanity.

Even the Lord, when addressed as "good master" replied: "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God" (Matt. 19:17). Here Jesus is highlighting that in him that is in his flesh dwells no good thing, and it is that fallen state which again you rightly say, Jesus needed on his and our behalf to overcome.

You are confusing Jesus with St. Paul. Not a good idea.
Jesus never said nor does any passage of the Bible imply that in Christ's flesh 'dwelt no good thing'.
Quite the opposite.
The flesh of Christ was without blemish, else His death upon the cross would not have been acceptable to God. The result would leave all of us still in sin.

Your quote of Jesus in Matt. 19:17 was not a reflection by Our Lord regarding His divinity. According to several commentaries, Jesus was replying to the young man's question. The young man assumed that Jesus was just a regular guy and posed his question about how to obtain eternal life. Jesus knew this and formed his answer so as to direct the student's attention away from Himself and toward the goodness of the law.

DO NOT focus on words alone, but examine them in the context in which they are written.

I suggest the reader study several worthy commentaries on this passage for further clarification. You may find their explanations interesting.

Your reference to St. Paul's remark was in regard to the flesh of the regenerate man, in which the spirit and the flesh war with one another. It does not equate at all with Jesus teaching in Mathew 19:13.

The incidence of sin had a physical reaction on human nature as God had warned it would (Gen. 2:17; 3:10-11, 14-19)

Paul then teaches that this “natural body” descends into the grave. I believe human nature is essentially the same today as then, in that flesh and blood body is given life by the breath of life; our condition is not in the "very good" condition because sin marred our original condition so that it became sin-prone and death-doomed.

Of course you know that previously death was one set out as a consequence of sin but afterward it became the reality.

But in the beginning man was never mortal nor immortal but as you right say he had free will in both states.

Man was never mortal or immortal?

There is only one state of physical existence, that being mortal or finite. All flesh ends in death.
What is fleshly immortality? Apart from certain stories in Greek mythology, no flesh is ever immortal.

Your statement that "man was never mortal or immortal" is completely outside of my frame of reference.

What do you mean?