Sin unto death cont...

[Purity]

Quotes by Scott

So while there is much to learn for a babe in Christ and there are things that indeed need to be corrected, iniquity within the heart has already been dealt with in the initial conversion and quickening experience. Hence a genuine Christian's eye is SINGLEY focused on God as opposed to being in a double-minded state vainly attempting to serve two masters.

Spirit minded vs. Carnal Minded - Both are present in the believer at any given time.

It appears to me that any disagreement is semantic in nature which gives me reason to be more careful with my words for language is but a means to communicate a mental picture to another and it can be quite easy for the mental picture to become skewed in translation.

I tend to agree wholeheartedly with most of what you have written with certain reservation which are probably due to semantics.

At present our only disagreement is found in how we see the "sin unto death" and its interpretation.

You write,

I find this interesting in regards to the word "do" and I am going to dig into this and reflect on it.

Yet I find it very troubling that one assert that the Romans wretch is the "present walk of a Christian" because the wretch is "carnal and sold under sin" and is crying out to be delivered whilst a Christian has been "set free from sin" and is not carnal. Romans 8:2 clearly states that we are set free from the law of sin and death via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. The wretch is not IN the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ.

If while you are in the wretch state and acknowledging such is not Paul's conclusion the position of Rom 8:2?

Rom 7:25NET
Rom 7:25ESV
Rom 7:25YLT
Rom 7:25NASB
Rom 7:25KJV

Cannot you see the Wretched state being addressed in Paul's intelligent acceptance of this fact?

You seem to grasp "With the mind I myself serve the law of God" but not "But with the flesh the law of sin" ???

"But with the flesh the law of sin"

In mind and thought Paul subscribed to God's law, but physically he sinned, thus revealing the need for a redeemer who would deliver him from "this body of death". He draws attention to the will of his nature and describes the stricken state of the man in the flesh, the slave of sin, the wretched man who feels the constant attack of weakness and iniquity. The literal Greek is "a law of sin". The declaration shows that the law was ineffectual as the means whereby sin could be subdued or overcome; and therefore it was unable to provide justification for sinners, Additionally, so long as fallen Adamic nature remains the constitution of man, sin will continue to exercise its diabolical power and influence. However, a glorious hope is set before the believer. He no longer capitulates to sin; there is a repudiation of the "old man" of the flesh; there is faith and confidence in that which has been accomplished in Christ. A way has been provided for the forgiveness of sin, and for attaining to unity with the Father and His Son: "Great is Yahweh, and greatly to be praised! His greatness is unsearchable!" (Psa 145:3). Paul's final statement introduces the subject of Rom 8:1-39, in which he expands upon the doctrine of sanctification, and the practical means by which the flesh can be conquered through the power of the Spirit, and a life of sacrifice.

Thus...
"For what I work out (katergazomai) I do not approve; since I do not practise (prasso) what I desire, but what I hate, this I do (poieo)".

Is still within the context of a man "under the law" who is "carnal and sold under sin" who is battling sin in the flesh yet is under strong conviction. Those who have been raised up with Christ, quickened together with Him, where all things have been made new and old things have passed away are not wretches. They are new creations in Christ.

The wretch is still enslaved to sin. Sin is his master, thus while he does not want to obey this master he is under a strong comnpulsion to do so because he has not crucified the flesh. One cannot simply stop sinning by making a "decision" apart from being utterly broken in godly sorrow and repentance. The old man MUST die. The body of sin MUST be destroyed once and for all. The wretch is still alive to sin and therefore still needs to be delivered via Jesus Christ.

Paul is teaching that the law in and of itself cannot set one free from sin.

Is not this passage...

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

...teaching that Jesus "learned submission of the flesh to the Spirit" by becoming a human being? Jesus in the flesh was totally dependent on being plugged into that which is above in order to overcome the draw to walk like a beast. Is that not what that passage is teaching?

That Jesus was demonstrating to us the METHOD by which we are to overcome the world?

Thus by following in the steps of Christ He becomes the author of our own salvation. It is in receiving with meekness the implanted word that our souls are saved for we yield ourselves over to the working of God IN us.

We are made the righteousness of God IN Christ for we are not only saved by His death (sin offering whereby we are cleansed of defilement) but we are also saved by His life (walking in the Spirit of His life).

I agree, however, if you believe this (and it sounds like you do!) its very meaning suggests you cannot believe Jesus is God (His person) in any way. For how can God dwell in a condemned nature?

Rom 6:9NET
Rom 6:9ESV
Rom 6:9NASB
Rom 6:9YLT
Rom 6:9KJV

Scott

In other words "death no longer lords it over him". While he was mortal, the Lord was subject to temptation, but struggled against its power successfully (Heb 5:7). But that no longer applies! Christ is no longer in the sphere of death; King Death does not reign over him, nor threaten him with its power cmp Rom 5:21).

Immortality takes a person beyond the grasp of death, and is therefore held to be the great victory of faith See (John 3:15; John 10:28; John 17:2; 1Ti 6:19)

I am enjoying our discussion thank you...even though its diverted me from Isa 55 it is a welcome diversion.

Purity

 

[ScottAU]

It seems you believe in the doctrine of Original Sin whereby you view that "sin" is "necessitated by the flesh."

Thus you view the nature of man in a dualistic fashion.

Correct me if I am wrong.


You stated this...

Spirit minded vs. Carnal Minded - Both are present in the believer at any given time.

That sounds like dualism to me and I utterly reject it.

I think a believer has the POTENTIAL to be carnal minded. Should they turn away from God and yield to the lusts of the flesh then they would be fulfilling that potential. Being carnally minded is simply being fleshly minded, ie, a mind set on self gratification. Being spiritually minded is the opposite for it is where the mind is set upon doing the will of God.

Both states cannot exist at the same time.

A carnal mind is not present in a Christian.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

A Christian is to have their mind set on that which is above...

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Carnal mindedness should be a thing of the past for a Christian...

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Those of a carnal mind are naturally inclined to sin, not so of a Christian.

The doctrine of Original Sin redefines the nature of man by attaching "carnal mindedness" to the "flesh" itself. Thus under this doctrine as long as one is "in a flesh body" by NECESSITY there must be carnal mindedness.

You ask this question...

I agree, however, if you believe this (and it sounds like you do!) its very meaning suggests you cannot believe Jesus is God (His person) in any way. For how can God dwell in a condemned nature?

The problem with that question is it is asked within the context of "the flesh" being a "condemned nature." The flesh is not a condemned nature, what is condemned is the "nature" of "living according to the lusts of the flesh in discordance with the will of God."

If I am hungry and I eat that is not carnality. That is natural. Yet gluttony is when an individual allows the flesh to RULE OVER THEM whereby they use their FREE AGENCY (ability to choose) in an irresponsible manner.

it is the same with sexual desire. Sexual desire is natural but God has set boundaries and we are expected to exercise our will within those boundaries. Lust, fornication and adultery are committed by those who "mind is set on gratifying the flesh" giving no thought of the boundaries.

It was Augustine in the Fourth Century who introduced dualism into Christian Orthodoxy which by necessity teaches FATALISM. In other words human being sin by necessity instead of choice, ie, we are BORN sinners.



Jesus came in the flesh but the flesh is not a condemned nature. Jesus ALWAYS yielded to God and was not ruled by the lusts of the flesh. Jesus lived a crucified life going about His Father's work.

So when Paul says Jesus was "made in the likeness of sinful flesh" it is a figure of speech. Not a literalism teaching that the flesh itself is sinful.

Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are yet was without sin. Temptation is common to man but God does not let us be tempted above that which we are able.

Sin is a choice, not a disease of being in the flesh. To believe that the flesh itself is the CAUSE of sin is to irk our culpability in regards to rebellion. When an individual come to believe that their sin is a MALADY of being BORN THAT WAY then it is almost impossible to be TRULY sorrowful over one's rebellion and thus a genuine repentance is hamstrung.

Satan is very cunning and his deceptions work by attacking the root of things. Thus we live in a world today with multitudes of celebrity preachers all talking about Jesus, the cross, righteousness, the wages of sin being death, the virgin birth, evolution being false etc. And yet they speak a message of death because Satan has introduced leaven which lays a foundation of error whereby the Gospel message is redefined in a very cunning fashion to be a SIN CLOAK.



So what of Rom 7:25?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I think the flesh will always serve the law of sin because the flesh seeks to be gratified at all costs. Which is why...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

A Christian does not "serve" the "law of sin" because the flesh is CRUCIFIED.

We are DEAD TO SIN.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The Romans Wretch was still letting sin reign in his mortal body. The Romans Wretch was carnal and sold under sin. He needed deliverance.

Is it good enough to serve the law of God with "the mind" but with the flesh "the law of sin"?

NO!

We have to ABIDE IN CHRIST.

It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Which is why...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[Purity]

Both states cannot exist at the same time.

A carnal mind is not present in a Christian.

James disagrees with you.

James 1:8
James 4:8

I enjoy teaching truth Scott..if you continue with this you will discover a greater truth than first imagined.

The word "double-minded" is a translation of dipsuchos which signifies two-souled! One soul is for God, and one is for self! The double-minded man has feet in both camps. He wants God's help but lacks confidence in His ability to assist. The appeal of Joshua is to the point. He urged the people to make up their minds whether they would serve Yahweh or not. He clearly set before them the responsibility of rendering the single-minded devotion that it demands. He gave them an example of what was required: "As for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh" (see Jos 24:14-25). See also the appeal of Elijah: "Why halt ye between two opinions?" (1Ki 18:21). A two-souled man does just that! He becomes dubious and indecisive in a crisis, lacking the faith that would give both direction and decisiveness to his actions. He becomes "unstable in all his ways". The word is akatastatos "unsettled". He does not know what to do. The same word is rendered "unruly" in James 3:8, and is used in the LXX in Isa 54:11 : "tossed with tempest". He is driven about by the changing winds of fleshly opinion. Whereas the utmost confidence can be placed in a man of faith, this is not so in the case of a "two-souled" man, see Isa 29:13; Mat 6:24; and the exhortation in James 4:8, which is given to believers alone! i.e The Jerusalem ecclesia.

While this post is a short answer to one of your points, in due course I will deal with the entire post.

Thank you for your patience.

Purity

 

[ScottAU]

James disagrees with you.

James 1:8
James 4:8

I enjoy teaching truth Scott..if you continue with this you will discover a greater truth than first imagined.

The word "double-minded" is a translation of dipsuchos which signifies two-souled! One soul is for God, and one is for self! The double-minded man has feet in both camps. He wants God's help but lacks confidence in His ability to assist. The appeal of Joshua is to the point. He urged the people to make up their minds whether they would serve Yahweh or not. He clearly set before them the responsibility of rendering the single-minded devotion that it demands. He gave them an example of what was required: "As for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh" (see Jos 24:14-25). See also the appeal of Elijah: "Why halt ye between two opinions?" (1Ki 18:21). A two-souled man does just that! He becomes dubious and indecisive in a crisis, lacking the faith that would give both direction and decisiveness to his actions. He becomes "unstable in all his ways". The word is akatastatos "unsettled". He does not know what to do. The same word is rendered "unruly" in James 3:8, and is used in the LXX in Isa 54:11 : "tossed with tempest". He is driven about by the changing winds of fleshly opinion. Whereas the utmost confidence can be placed in a man of faith, this is not so in the case of a "two-souled" man, see Isa 29:13; Mat 6:24; and the exhortation in James 4:8, which is given to believers alone! i.e The Jerusalem ecclesia.

While this post is a short answer to one of your points, in due course I will deal with the entire post.

Thank you for your patience.

Purity

Am I saying one cannot have two affections?

No!

The Romans Wretch sure had two affections. On the one hand he served the law of God in his mind but on the other hand he served the law of sin with his flesh.

Is that the walk of a Christian?

James speaks against such a thing when he writes...

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

James is clearly calling for those who would read his words to turn from their evil and turn to God. James is not teaching that a carnal mind exists in a Christian, he is contending that a Christian be pure. This same author wrote that we are to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfrluity of naughtiness and recieve with meekness the implanted word which can save the soul (Jam 1:21) and be DOERS of the word as opposed to hearers only (Jam 1:22). Have those whom he refers to as seeking to consume upon their lusts done this? Of course not hence his admonition.

Look at what Jesus taught...

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

If the body is to be full of light the eye must be single, hence double-mindedness is out of the question for a geniune Christian.

Jesus said no man can serve two masters, it is one or the other. Paul agreed when he wrote...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We either obey sin or we obey God. Is not this what Joshua was petitioning when he said...

Jos 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
Jos 24:17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
Jos 24:18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.
Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Jos 24:20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
Jos 24:21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
Jos 24:23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.
Jos 24:24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

Thus what I said about a carnal mind not being in a genuine Christian is absolutely true. Christian's are not carnal minded, if they are then they are deceiving themselves in believing they are following Jesus Christ and ought ot heed the advice of James and...

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

In other words...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;


So again I never stated one cannot have two affections. What I have stated is that a GENUINE CHRISTIAN cannot have two affections. It is impossible for a TRULY spiritually minded person to be carnally minded. To be spiritually minded the carnal mind must be put to death. For the spiritual mind to be borne the carnal mind must die.

 

[Purity]

Am I saying one cannot have two affections?

No!

The Romans Wretch sure had two affections. On the one hand he served the law of God in his mind but on the other hand he served the law of sin with his flesh.

Is that the walk of a Christian?

James speaks against such a thing when he writes...

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

James is clearly calling for those who would read his words to turn from their evil and turn to God. James is not teaching that a carnal mind exists in a Christian, he is contending that a Christian be pure. This same author wrote that we are to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfrluity of naughtiness and recieve with meekness the implanted word which can save the soul (Jam 1:21) and be DOERS of the word as opposed to hearers only (Jam 1:22). Have those whom he refers to as seeking to consume upon their lusts done this? Of course not hence his admonition.

Look at what Jesus taught...

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

If the body is to be full of light the eye must be single, hence double-mindedness is out of the question for a geniune Christian.

Jesus said no man can serve two masters, it is one or the other. Paul agreed when he wrote...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We either obey sin or we obey God. Is not this what Joshua was petitioning when he said...

Jos 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
Jos 24:17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
Jos 24:18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.
Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Jos 24:20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
Jos 24:21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
Jos 24:23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.
Jos 24:24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

Thus what I said about a carnal mind not being in a genuine Christian is absolutely true. Christian's are not carnal minded, if they are then they are deceiving themselves in believing they are following Jesus Christ and ought ot heed the advice of James and...

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

In other words...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;


So again I never stated one cannot have two affections. What I have stated is that a GENUINE CHRISTIAN cannot have two affections. It is impossible for a TRULY spiritually minded person to be carnally minded. To be spiritually minded the carnal mind must be put to death. For the spiritual mind to be borne the carnal mind must die.

Two affections?

Where is the source of these affections?

1. Carnal
2. Spiritual

Maybe you should go back read my post.

Col 3:2KJV

affection = mind, thinking, thought etc....

In what way was "Evil" always present with Paul in Rom 7:18KJV?

It is impossible to separate affections from the mind or source of those affection's..to this you must agree.

Purity

 

[ScottAU]

I am trying to understand what the issue you actually oppose in your post.

Are you trying to imply that a genuine Christian CAN BE carnally minded?

If that is the case what is a genuine Christian? Is there any difference between a Christian and a worldly person? If the difference between a Christian and a worldy person forensic?

I am trying to grasp what the issue you are in opposition to actually is.



Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

I agree with that verse. It is good adice. It is a teaching of truth. We are to set our effection on things above. That is a choice we have to make, we have to do that. If our affections are set on the world and we profess to be in Christ then we are only deceiving ourselves.

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

John's teaching mirrors the sentiment of Paul's teaching.

We are to do this...

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

In other words our walk must match our profession. If we have indeed put on the new man then the new man cannot be living like the old man.


Where is the source of our affections, worldly or spiritual?

Our HEART. Our affections are rooted in the condition of our heart.

If we have submitted ourselves to God and thus abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ then our hearts have been made clean by the implanted word and our affections will be on spiritual things. If that has not occurred then our hearts will be set on the rudiments of the world even though their may be an "intellectual assent" to the truth. The Romans Wretch had an intellectual assent that the righteousness of the law was indeed the right way to go yet his flesh was not crucified and thus he did what he did not want to do. His eyes had not been opened, he had not been raised up, he had not passed from darkness to light and thus he knew not.

 

[Purity]

We have proved together that your comment:

Both states cannot exist at the same time.

A carnal mind is not present in a Christian.

Is not true.

Purity wrote:

James disagrees with you.

James 1:8
James 4:8

I enjoy teaching truth Scott..if you continue with this you will discover a greater truth than first imagined.

The word "double-minded" is a translation of dipsuchos which signifies two-souled! One soul is for God, and one is for self! The double-minded man has feet in both camps. He wants God's help but lacks confidence in His ability to assist. The appeal of Joshua is to the point. He urged the people to make up their minds whether they would serve Yahweh or not. He clearly set before them the responsibility of rendering the single-minded devotion that it demands. He gave them an example of what was required: "As for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh" (see Jos 24:14-25). See also the appeal of Elijah: "Why halt ye between two opinions?" (1Ki 18:21). A two-souled man does just that! He becomes dubious and indecisive in a crisis, lacking the faith that would give both direction and decisiveness to his actions. He becomes "unstable in all his ways". The word is akatastatos "unsettled". He does not know what to do. The same word is rendered "unruly" in James 3:8, and is used in the LXX in Isa 54:11 : "tossed with tempest". He is driven about by the changing winds of fleshly opinion. Whereas the utmost confidence can be placed in a man of faith, this is not so in the case of a "two-souled" man, see Isa 29:13; Mat 6:24; and the exhortation in James 4:8, which is given to believers alone! i.e The Jerusalem ecclesia.

 

[daq]

The problem with that question is it is asked within the context of "the flesh" being a "condemned nature." The flesh is not a condemned nature, what is condemned is the "nature" of "living according to the lusts of the flesh in discordance with the will of God."

If I am hungry and I eat that is not carnality. That is natural. Yet gluttony is when an individual allows the flesh to RULE OVER THEM whereby they use their FREE AGENCY (ability to choose) in an irresponsible manner.

it is the same with sexual desire. Sexual desire is natural but God has set boundaries and we are expected to exercise our will within those boundaries. Lust, fornication and adultery are committed by those who "mind is set on gratifying the flesh" giving no thought of the boundaries.

It was Augustine in the Fourth Century who introduced dualism into Christian Orthodoxy which by necessity teaches FATALISM. In other words human being sin by necessity instead of choice, ie, we are BORN sinners.

Jesus came in the flesh but the flesh is not a condemned nature. Jesus ALWAYS yielded to God and was not ruled by the lusts of the flesh. Jesus lived a crucified life going about His Father's work.

So when Paul says Jesus was "made in the likeness of sinful flesh" it is a figure of speech. Not a literalism teaching that the flesh itself is sinful.

Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are yet was without sin. Temptation is common to man but God does not let us be tempted above that which we are able.

Sin is a choice, not a disease of being in the flesh. To believe that the flesh itself is the CAUSE of sin is to irk our culpability in regards to rebellion. When an individual come to believe that their sin is a MALADY of being BORN THAT WAY then it is almost impossible to be TRULY sorrowful over one's rebellion and thus a genuine repentance is hamstrung.

Satan is very cunning and his deceptions work by attacking the root of things. Thus we live in a world today with multitudes of celebrity preachers all talking about Jesus, the cross, righteousness, the wages of sin being death, the virgin birth, evolution being false etc. And yet they speak a message of death because Satan has introduced leaven which lays a foundation of error whereby the Gospel message is redefined in a very cunning fashion to be a SIN CLOAK.



So what of Rom 7:25?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I think the flesh will always serve the law of sin because the flesh seeks to be gratified at all costs. Which is why...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

A Christian does not "serve" the "law of sin" because the flesh is CRUCIFIED.

We are DEAD TO SIN.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The Romans Wretch was still letting sin reign in his mortal body. The Romans Wretch was carnal and sold under sin. He needed deliverance.

Is it good enough to serve the law of God with "the mind" but with the flesh "the law of sin"?

NO!

Yeshua: "The flesh profits nothing." (John 6:63)
Paul: "In my flesh dwelleth no good thing." (Romans 7:18)
Paul: "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:25)

ScottAU: "A Christian does not "serve" the "law of sin" because the flesh is CRUCIFIED."
ScottAU: "Jesus came in the flesh but the flesh is not a condemned nature."

ScottAU appears to have his own form of "cloak" . . . :)

 

[Purity]

Scott,

Can you see why its important Jesus had a condemn nature and possessed the potential for carnal thinking as we all?

The truth in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is found in his nature and nowhere else.

Heb 2:14,15,16 is a good place to start and many lessons are expounded in this chapter concerning the true Gospel of God.

Heb 2:14KJV
Heb 2:14NET
Heb 2:14YLT

Purity

 

[ScottAU]

The Bible does not teach anywhere that "the flesh is a condemned nature." Of course Jesus had the "potential" for carnal thinking, Jesus was in a flesh body with all the associated passions and desires yet He did not let those passions and desires rule Him, thus whilst He was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are He did not yield to temptation via being drawn away by His own lust and sin unto death (Jam 1:14-15).

Jesus stated this...

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Thus it is REBELLION which brings condemnation. Babies are not born in a condemned state. Flesh is flesh, it is just a vessel. The teaching that flesh in and of itself is intrinsically evil is rooted in ancient pagan and gnostic philosophy. Such teaching lays the ground work for the notion that a human being is "perpetually sinful" thus requiring the Gospel to be redefined into a "cloak for ongoing iniquity" hence the birth of the Penal Substition view of the cross.

Adam was in a flesh body but did not fall under condemnation until he disobeyed God in eating of the fruit.

Paul wrote this...

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Condemnation is wrought by an OFFENSE not by being in a flesh body.

Thus...

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The Word was made flesh that He lead us out of bondage. He served as an example and gave Himself as an offering to God that we be made clean.

Thus sinners have the opportunity to forsake their rebellion and turn to God, approaching God via the blood of Christ seeking to be cleansed of all defilement.


You have not quoted a single scripture which is teaching that the "flesh itself" is a "condemned nature." The flesh APART from being plugged into God is of no value thus it is not flesh and blood which inherits the kingdom. God is calling all His creation to cease living like brute beasts (living according to base desires) and instead yield to Him. For it is Jesus Christ whom is the source of true life, thus life apart from Christ is really death.

Again a Christian IS NOT carnally minded for to be carnally minded is death. A Christian is spiritually minded. To be both carnally minded and spiritually minded is to be double-minded and thus not to have a single eye as Jesus taught. Jesus said one CANNOT serve two masters, those who are double-minded serve an IMAGE of God made in their own likeness, an IMAGE who accepts the mixing of light and darkness.

What is it EXACTLY you are trying to say? It does appear like you are playing word games with me.



The truth of the Gospel is found in the doctrine according to godliness. Jesus was our kinsman redeemer who acted on our behalf, he purchased us with His blood from the service of sin that we may turn to God and serve righteousness. We are set free by obeying from the heart the doctrine of Jesus Christ. By offering Himself for sin we are able to have our past transgressions washed away via the blood whereby our consciences are made clean. Their can be no reconciliation without the conscience being made clean by the blood of Christ.

It is through obeying Christ that we come into an abiding in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ whereby we overcome the world.

It's the only way.

 

[Purity]

Condemnation is wrought by an OFFENSE not by being in a flesh body.

Hi Scott

See how you have moved onto this subject without accepting the answer to whether Christian's can possess two minds or not?
Can you explain why Paul refers to man's nature as "sin's flesh" in Romans 8:3NET? If you believe everything is held under sin and by sin is condemnation given; how so is Paul able to call the flesh "sinful"?

Maybe Rom 8:1NET; Rom 8:2NET may help you define the problem with our nature and why mankind is in a hopeless situation if they constitutionally remain "in Adam"? Rom 5:19-21

To what does our condemnation relate?

For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
(Rom 8:2)

Notice what Paul is saying?

Ultimately you need to explain how God removed sin in the flesh of Jesus Christ? To condemn something one must by necessity possess that which needs condemning?

Rom 8:3NET
Rom 8:3KJV
Rom 8:3ESV

What did Jesus posses which condemned him though not having sinned himself?

Purity

 

[ScottAU]

Purity,

You are trying to establish a position which teaches that the flesh in and of itself is sinful. If that was the case then Jesus would have been sinful because...

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Flesh is not sinful.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

When Paul says that Jesus was "in the likeness of sinful flesh" it is a figurative expression where Paul is indicating how men sin in the flesh, he is not teaching that the flesh is and of itself sinful. Living "according" to the flesh is sinful, not being in a flesh body. Jesus condemned sin in the flesh because He did not WALK according to the flesh. Jesus walked according to the Spirit.

Jesus was manifested that he might "destroy the works of the devil" and that He certainly did.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus overcame death, sin and the devil by being made like we are, a flesh being and then submitting that flesh to the will of God. Thus the results of the curse (suffering and physical death) due to Adam's disobedience were unjustly put on Jesus Christ, yet Jesus overcame that last enemy (death) through His resurrection. Thus if we follow in Jesus stead and likewise walk the crucified life by walking according to the Sprit then we too will overcome death via Jesus Christ. Jesus came to this earth to call sinners unto Himself that they may be set free from the bondage of sin as well as the condemnation. The condemnation wrought on us by our previous rebellion is removed via the blood and we are saved from being condemned again by walking in His life.

One only remains IN ADAM so long as they are living accordng to the flesh in rebellion to God. Hence by the obedience of one many shall be made righteous (Rom 5:19) for we are to follow the example of Jesus Christ and thus abide in the Spirit of life which is found IN Jesus Christ. Hence eternal life is THROUGH Jesus Christ. What Satan has done is twist being IN CHRIST into being a purely abstract notion which in turn excises the DYNAMIC whereby the power of God saves a soul.

Jesus very clearly taught what the condemnation was...

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

That is not what you are trying to teach. You are attempting to relate the condemnation to being in the flesh itself. Adam was in a flesh body but did not bring condemnation upon his head until he sinned.

Thus when James writes...

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The flesh is a source of TEMPTATION not condemnation. You are trying to teach that the flesh is the source of condemnation.

Jesus was tempted by the lusts of His flesh but He was not "drawn away and enticed" thus His lust did not "concieve and bring forth sin" whereby "death is brought forth."

Jesus was TEMPTED IN ALL POINTS as we are yet was without sin.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Temptation is COMMON to man but death is only wrought in YIELDING to it.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Blessed is the man who ENDURETH temptation (the man who is tempted but does not yield to it).

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

The law of sin and death is simply this...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

What you are trying to teach is the complete opposite of these scriptures for you are attempting to put attach the condemnation to simply being "born in a flesh body." That is wrong.

Are you not blaming BIRTH instead of REBELLION?


When Paul writes...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.It i

It is in the context of this...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.

and thus...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith being the working dynamic with which we access (Rom 5:2) and abide in the grace of God (Tit 2:11-12) which is equivalent to being quickened (Eph 2:3) due to abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2, Joh 15:4-5).


Thus your question and statement is a fallacy.

Ultimately you need to explain how God removed sin in the flesh of Jesus Christ? To condemn something one must by necessity possess that which needs condemning?

Jesus did not have sin in His flesh because SIN IS MORAL. Sin is not a SUBSTANCE of the flesh. Vice and virtue are MORAL not THINGS.

It is moral to yield to the lead of God and thus abide in the truth. It is immoral to walk according to the lusts of the flesh despising thus despising the lead of God. Hence the condemnation is a REFUSAL to come to the light and abide in it.

God offers mercy to all those who have condemned themselves in supressing the light and rebelling against God. God gave us the free gift of eternal life IN Jesus Christ whereby we can have our sins remitted on the condition that we abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Entrance into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ is via repentance and faith which involves the forsaking of rebellion whereby one then yields to God (Jam 1:21).

There is no other way.

Satan has introduced all sorts of false doctrine in order to bring confusion and lead men to "other ways" whereby they remain dead in their sins and slaves to their corruption.

 

[Purity]

Purity,

You are trying to establish a position which teaches that the flesh in and of itself is sinful. If that was the case then Jesus would have been sinful because...

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Flesh is not sinful.

I will be interested to see where this truth takes you Scott.

Your above answer then has Jesus in a "condemned nature" with the "power of death" ruling over him.

In the eyes of his contemporaries, Jesus was a man like all other men, possessed of the same flesh and blood body, with a nature that was under the same condemnation of mortality resulting from the Edenic transgression. Thus, he was "likeness" to the point of complete identity of nature (Heb 2:17). In respect to Christ's humility, Paul says that Jesus was "made in the likeness of men" (Php 2:7), and his statement in Rom 8:3 is similarly an identification with the same nature possessed by all "his brethren" Heb 2:12). In "all things" he was "made" (i.e. in respect to his condition of nature) like unto his brethren (Heb 2:17,14). Paul could have said "God sent his Son in sinful flesh" eliminating the reference to "likeness" - but the inclusion of that description emphasizes the similarity and identity with the object of the work of salvation: his brethren who "likewise" possessed the same fallen nature. Notice the use of the word in Phil 2:7 where Paul states that the Lord was made "in the likeness of men " - he was "of men" to the extent of total identity with Adam's descendants see also Heb 2:17; Heb 4:15).

"Of sinful flesh" - other translations put it "flesh of sin" whilst others have "sin's flesh", or "sin-influenced flesh". It was flesh in which, naturally, sin reigned (Rom 6:12), and produced its fruits (Rom 6:19). The term relates to flesh that is weak and prone to sin, because of the inherent characteristics derived from the parents. The nature of Jesus was identical to that of our own, being "made of a woman" (Gal 4:4), and had he followed the will of the flesh, he would have sinned; but this he never did. Nevertheless, he was fully aware of the strong bias within his nature which was capable of deflecting him from his Father's will, had he capitulated to such pressure. Paul told the Hebrews that Jesus "in the days of his flesh when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from (out of) death, and was heard in that he feared" (Heb 5:7KJV). Paul relates the days of flesh to the impact of sin in his members felt by the Lord, and the struggle in opposing it through the power of his divinely-inherited mind. The word "sinful" is the Gr. harmartia in its genitive form, indicating a relationship of ownership, by virtue of its origin (from the transgression of Adam). Thus the flesh is constitutionally owned by sin; is under the dominion of sin. In explaining the term employed would make Christ "a constitutional sinner', or another way of putting it, Jesus "stood related to a sin - constitution of things - a state of things arising out of sin, without being himself a committer of sin. Sorrow arises out of sin; and he was a man of sorrow. Pain (among men) arises out of sin, and he suffered pain. Weakness arises from sin, and he was 'crucified through weakness'. Mortality (among men) is the result of sin, and he was mortal, requiring to be saved from death (Heb 5:7), and bringing life by his obedience (Rom 5:1-21). Into this state of things he was introduced, as we are introduced, in being born of a sinful woman. This is the sense of the phrase 'a constitutional sinner'. Only perversity would suppress the word 'constitutional, and allege that the teach that Christ had been a sinner. In this way Christ was "made (i.e. constituted) to be sin for us, who knew no sin" (2Co 5:21). Whilst stressing the true nature borne by Christ, Paul's comment in Rom 8:3 does not suggest that the Lord Jesus was a moral sinner. He never permitted his nature to reign over, nor dominate him, so that in every moral sense he remained sinless. Weymouth adequately renders this verse: "Sending His own Son in the form of sinful humanity to deal with sin, God pronounced sentence upon sin in human nature". Sinful flesh, being the hereditary nature of the Lord Jesus, he was a fit and proper sacrifice for sin, especially as he was himself, innocent of the great transgression, having been obedient in all things.

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

ScottAU appears to have his own form of "cloak" . . . :)

Good observation. He is, what I call, a state-of-mind Christian

Can you see why its important Jesus had a condemn nature and possessed the potential for carnal thinking as we all?

Jesus did not have a condemned nature (if that is what you said). Adam's nature was not condemned before he sinned; Jesus didn't inherit Adam's condemned nature (inheritance is through the father, not the mother) and he never sinned.

 

[Purity]

Jesus did not have a condemned nature (if that is what you said). Adam's nature was not condemned before he sinned; Jesus didn't inherit Adam's condemned nature (inheritance is through the father, not the mother) and he never sinned.

You cannot speak against Heb 2:17ESV born in the fallen state of Abraham and David...for good reason, though I understand why you would not go there! Its "every" Christians nightmare.

eve·ry (

v

r

)

adj.
1.
a. Constituting each and all members of a group without exception.
b. Being all possible:

2. Being each of a specified succession of objects or intervals: every third seat; every two hours.
3. Being the highest degree or expression of: showed us every attention; had every hope of succeeding

But should you try to speak against it I would be interest in your view of the Lords nature and how it was not held under condemnation. Don't forget to provide those verses which speak to his nature.


Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You cannot speak against Heb 2:17ESV born in the fallen state of Abraham and David...for good reason, though I understand why you would not go there! Its "every" Christians nightmare.
eve·ry (

v

r

)

sheeeesh... how many times have I been through this? The Greek word translated every is usually translated all. It can mean every, but doesn't necessarily. It is used figuratively signifying a whole (but not every part). A word study of the NT and LXX will prove this to be true.

Again, Jesus received his inheritance from his father who is without sin; not so all other of Adam's descendents. Man's nature includes more than just a lump of cells; it includes his spirit. All men after Adam have been born with a dead spirit, except Christ. The dead spirit is what corrupts the flesh because being separated from GOD man cannot know perfectly the will of GOD; thus he is unable to do perfectly the will of GOD. Not doing the will of GOD is sin. Man is therefore by nature a sinful being. Christ did not have this corruption.

 

[ScottAU]

My comments in blue. Please read very carefully what I have written so as not to miscontrue my meaning. Thanks for your responses though, it is a good discussion.

I will be interested to see where this truth takes you Scott.

Your above answer then has Jesus in a "condemned nature" with the "power of death" ruling over him.

In the eyes of his contemporaries, Jesus was a man like all other men, possessed of the same flesh and blood body, with a nature that was under the same condemnation of mortality resulting from the Edenic transgression. Your conclusion here is pure conjecture. Adam was mortal before he sinned and physical death was due to being denied access to the tree of life. Spiritual death is a direct result of sin. Physical death was a result of the curse and Jesus was born under the curse NOT under condemnation. Thus, he was "likeness" to the point of complete identity of nature (Heb 2:17). In respect to Christ's humility, Paul says that Jesus was "made in the likeness of men" (Php 2:7), and his statement in Rom 8:3 is similarly an identification with the same nature possessed by all "his brethren" Heb 2:12). In "all things" he was "made" (i.e. in respect to his condition of nature) like unto his brethren (Heb 2:17,14). Paul could have said "God sent his Son in sinful flesh" eliminating the reference to "likeness" - but the inclusion of that description emphasizes the similarity and identity with the object of the work of salvation: his brethren who "likewise" possessed the same fallen nature. Notice the use of the word in Phil 2:7 where Paul states that the Lord was made "in the likeness of men " - he was "of men" to the extent of total identity with Adam's descendants see also Heb 2:17; Heb 4:15).

"Of sinful flesh" - other translations put it "flesh of sin" whilst others have "sin's flesh", or "sin-influenced flesh". Sin a moral issue as opposed to being some sort of essence attached to the flesh. It was the Gnostics who attached sin to the flesh and these notions started to infiltrate Christianity early on, especially with the Latin Fathers where some of them spoke of a vice of origin. It was not until Augustine of Hippo though that the notion that the flesh in and of itself was sinful became accepted orthodoxy. You ought to study your history because you are clearly establishing the framework of your belief on Augustinianism. It was flesh in which, naturally, sin reigned (Rom 6:12), and produced its fruits (Rom 6:19). Again this is the Augustinian view and was not taught by the early church. Paul is speaking within the context of the Yetzer-Ra and Yetzer Tov (the evil impulse and the moral conscience). It is the natural disposition of self gratification (a lure of the physical senses) that leads men to suppress the moral conscience and sin. Sin IS NOT a substance of the flesh. The term relates to flesh that is weak and prone to sin, because of the inherent characteristics derived from the parents. No, again this is Manichaeism (if you are viewing it in accordance as being a result of the Adamic transgression (ie your first sentence). If you read Genesis 6:3 you will see that Eve exhibited concupiscence BEFORE she sinned. It was Augustine who taught that concupiscence was a result of "the sin of Adam." Augustine was wrong and so are you. So while it is true that we inherit the "lusts of the flesh" from our parents it is incorrect to identify those lusts as being caused by the "sin of Adam." The lusts of the flesh are NATURAL and not evil. The nature of Jesus was identical to that of our own, being "made of a woman" (Gal 4:4), and had he followed the will of the flesh, he would have sinned; but this he never did. Nevertheless, he was fully aware of the strong bias within his nature which was capable of deflecting him from his Father's will, had he capitulated to such pressure. Absolutely true, I agree 100%. Paul told the Hebrews that Jesus "in the days of his flesh when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from (out of) death, and was heard in that he feared" (Heb 5:7KJV). Paul relates the days of flesh to the impact of sin in his members felt by the Lord, and the struggle in opposing it through the power of his divinely-inherited mind. The word "sinful" is the Gr. harmartia in its genitive form, indicating a relationship of ownership, by virtue of its origin (from the transgression of Adam). Thus the flesh is constitutionally owned by sin; is under the dominion of sin This is pure philosophical speculation rooted in Platonic dualism. You really ought to study your history so as to understand where all this stuff comes from. Adam was made a flesh being thus under this logic Adam would have been created under the dominion of sin. The truth though is that Adam sold himself over to sins dominion by an act of rebellion. Jesus buys us back but leaves us with the choice as to whether we leave the old master or not (slaves to whom you obey). In explaining the term employed would make Christ "a constitutional sinner', or another way of putting it, Jesus "stood related to a sin - constitution of things - a state of things arising out of sin, without being himself a committer of sin. The simple truth is that Jesus was TEMPTED IN ALL POINTS AS WE ARE. There is no need to add Manichaeism to the mix. Sorrow arises out of sin worldly sorrow maybe, Not godly sorrow, godly sorrow is a result of us beginning to heed the draw of God; and he was a man of sorrow. Pain (among men) arises out of sin, and he suffered pain. Weakness arises from sin, and he was 'crucified through weakness'. Mortality (among men) is the result of sin, and he was mortal, requiring to be saved from death (Heb 5:7), and bringing life by his obedience (Rom 5:1-21). Into this state of things he was introduced, as we are introduced, in being born of a sinful woman. This is the sense of the phrase 'a constitutional sinner'. Only perversity would suppress the word 'constitutional, and allege that the teach that Christ had been a sinner. In this way Christ was "made (i.e. constituted) to be sin for us, who knew no sin" (2Co 5:21). I would agree with this last statement that in that "made sin" in 2Cor 5:21 is a parallel to Rom 8:3. I also consider it a a possibility that it is a reference to "sin offering" due to the word being rendered like that the Septuaigin. I have briefly looked into the nuances of the specific Greek words used and thus lean more towards "made sin" being related to "like unto sinful flesh." Nevertheless Paul IS NOT teaching the Manichaean view here, Paul is viewing the issue through the Jewish tradition of Yetzer-Ra and Yetzer-Tov. Original sin (ie. the flesh of Adam and his posterity being corrupted due Adam's rebellion) is pagan heresy and a very dangerous doctrine. Whilst stressing the true nature borne by Christ, Paul's comment in Rom 8:3 does not suggest that the Lord Jesus was a moral sinner. This is because Paul is personifying sin to make a point, just like he does in Rom 7:20. He is not suggesting that the flesh in and of itself is sinful. He is simply making an allusion to the powerful effect of the lusts of the flesh. it is interesting because Paul did not understand how the brain worked in relation to "dopamine" and "neuro-transmitters." We know now that sinning leads to a hardwiring of the brain due to physical changes that actually occur (ie. porn addiction and cocain addiction have similar effects on the brain). This one reason why sinning leads to bondage. He never permitted his nature to reign over, nor dominate him, so that in every moral sense he remained sinless. 100% true. Weymouth adequately renders this verse: "Sending His own Son in the form of sinful humanity to deal with sin, God pronounced sentence upon sin in human nature". Sinful flesh, being the hereditary nature of the Lord Jesus, he was a fit and proper sacrifice for sin, especially as he was himself, innocent of the great transgression, having been obedient in all things. I complete agree with this sentiment.

Purity

sheeeesh... how many times have I been through this? The Greek word translated every is usually translated all. It can mean every, but doesn't necessarily. It is used figuratively signifying a whole (but not every part). A word study of the NT and LXX will prove this to be true.

Again, Jesus received his inheritance from his father who is without sin; not so all other of Adam's descendents. Man's nature includes more than just a lump of cells; it includes his spirit. All men after Adam have been born with a dead spirit, except Christ. The dead spirit is what corrupts the flesh because being separated from GOD man cannot know perfectly the will of GOD; thus he is unable to do perfectly the will of GOD. Not doing the will of GOD is sin. Man is therefore by nature a sinful being. Christ did not have this corruption.

You are decieved by the traditions of men These traditions force you to READ INTO scripture what is not there.

For example the Bible clearly teaches this...

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

You simply cannot accept that passage at face value.

Adam was alive once without the law. Then the commandment came to Adam (thou shalt not) and by the power of the commandment sin was able to slay Adam.

It is no different today.

The wages of sin is death not the wages of being born. The soul that sins shall die not the soul that is born.

Your doctrine shifts the blame for your own condemnation to your birth, it shifts the blame to Adam. Ultimately it shifts the blame to God for it is He who created you. It is an abominable doctrine which utterly perverts the Gospel for it redefines how one is to approach God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

You simply cannot accept that passage at face value.

It can't be taken at face value because before Christ, Paul was never apart from the law. He was under the law from the moment he was born until the moment he died in Christ. Don't stray from the context; it's there beginning in verse 1. He was never apart from the law until the moment he trusted in Christ, so he must be referring to a vantage point at some time in his life when he did not feel condemned by the law because he was not focused on what the law required. That self-righteous mindset was possible until he began to more earnestly follow the law, which highlighted the corruption in his own being through its righteous requirements. The more he tried to follow law, the more he failed.

 

[ScottAU]

It can't be taken at face value because before Christ, Paul was never apart from the law. He was under the law from the moment he was born until the moment he died in Christ. Don't stray from the context; it's there beginning in verse 1. He was never apart from the law until the moment he trusted in Christ, so he must be referring to a vantage point at some time in his life when he did not feel condemned by the law because he was not focused on what the law required. That self-righteous mindset was possible until he began to more earnestly follow the law, which highlighted the corruption in his own being through its righteous requirements. The more he tried to follow law, the more he failed.

Paul taught this...

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death is due to sin not birth. Adam sinned and death entered the world.

Death passed upon all men because all men sinned.

Yet you are telling me that you were "born dead" therefore "death was passed onto all men because Adam sinned." Isn't that right?

I mean correct me if I am wrong if you don't believe that.


Now if this is true...

He was under the law from the moment he was born until the moment he died in Christ.

How is it that those before the law were born dead also?

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The scriptures plainly teach that sin is not counted when there is no law. So what is this sin without the law that those from Adam to Moses did?

See the problem there? You are teaching that everyone is "born dead" yet Paul writes in Romans 5:14 that death reigned over those who sinned without the law. How do you harmonise that with your beliefs?




What about what James writes...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James writes that one is enticed to sin and sinning brings forth death. Yet you are saying that one is "born dead" and then they sin.

See the problem? What you are trying to defend does not make sense and asserting that I'm ignorant, blind, deceived or whatever else you wish to say does not reconcile the logic.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yet you are telling me that you were "born dead" therefore "death was passed onto all men because Adam sinned." Isn't that right?
I mean correct me if I am wrong if you don't believe that.

All men are born spiritually dead. i.e. separated from the life of GOD. Paul is referring to physical death that passes onto all men because all sin.

The scriptures plainly teach that sin is not counted when there is no law. So what is this sin without the law that those from Adam to Moses did?
See the problem there? You are teaching that everyone is "born dead" yet Paul writes in Romans 5:14 that death reigned over those who sinned without the law. How do you harmonise that with your beliefs?

Death reigns over all men, with or without law, because they are spiritually dead and separated from GOD, i.e. the tree of life.

James writes that one is enticed to sin and sinning brings forth death. Yet you are saying that one is "born dead" and then they sin.See the problem? What you are trying to defend does not make sense and asserting that I'm ignorant, blind, deceived or whatever else you wish to say does not reconcile the logic.

People sin because they are born spiritually dead, i.e. separated from GOD. They are born into a condition of spiritual death. Sin is not doing the will of GOD. Being separated from GOD, man cannot know the will of GOD perfectly, and therefore cannot perfectly do the will of GOD. He is, therefore, by nature a sinful being.