Scott wrote:
Its strange the very quote which teaches you the inherited problem of condemned nature you use to deny it? I am talking about condemnation of the soul not the physical death of body.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: This is clearly speaking of "spiritual death" for if it was "physical death" then it would say "death passed upon all men, for that Adam sinned."
Death relates to nature regardless if one sins or not. Yes "physical death" is related to being in a "mortal flesh body."
Remember "death has no more dominion over him" though he was morally sinless! Yes I 100% agree.
That's the whole point of Christ in sin's flesh! Yes indeed. One of the reasons Jesus was manifest in the flesh was to overcome physical death.
God's commandment for obedience contained a warning did it not? Gen 2:17NET Yes it did and that warning was "the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." The same death that both Paul and James describe.
Would this warning change the very good condition of Gen 1:31NET? Absolutely. Adam had defiled Himself and brought condemnation on his head. He was in big trouble.
Was there are change in nature and define what the change was? How does the inherited state of mortality work into God's plan of redemption and did Jesus have such a condemned nature - the Scripture states clearly he did - you say otherwise. Physical mortality is a result of this...
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
The cutting off access from the tree of life occurred AFTER Adam sinned not at the same time. Thus Adam's sin did not change his physical nature, it resulted in God removing access to that which would sustain his physical nature.
Very good Gen 1:31NET becomes 1 Cor 15:54NET (Adam being mortal in the beginning was not a bad thing, he was not created immortal. If Adam was created immortal and then his sin suddenly made him mortal then there would be no need for God to cut off his access to the tree of life which he could eat and live forever. )and dying Gen 2:17NET and then you have the sad record of Gen 5:1-32 "and he died" Gen 5:5,8,11,14,17,20,27,31 became a record of the failure of mankind and the destiny of flesh as the act of Adam threw its influence over all men. Rom 5:12 says "for that all have sinned" NOT "for Adam sinned." Thus the death in Rom 5:12 being referred to is a result of an individuals own sin which is spiritual death.
Therefore...."And so death passed upon all men" - Rotherham translates: "Unto all men death passed through". "All men" is in the plural, emphasizing that death applies to the entire race. Even the Lord Jesus possessed the same condemned nature as ourselves. John the Baptist came with the message of Isaiah: "All flesh is grass" (Mat 3:3; Mat 3:13-17; Isa 40:6-8). There is no exception to this condition. "Passed upon" is dierchomai, and is rendered "to go through" (Mat 19:24), "pierce through" (Luk 2:35), from dia, "through". Having sinned, man was now caught in a condition of death. It "pierced him" through, as a law of nature, bringing him inevitably to the grave without hope. It also "passed through" Adam's corrupting, mortal body to his posterity, so affecting them with the same condition, as pestilence, or disease, might pass through a nation. What was a penalty for Adam became to others a law of their nature. Paul found this a distressing fact, and exclaimed: "who shall deliver me from the body of this death!" (Rom 7:24), as he observed the weakness inherent within him. The "body of death" is the "body of sin" or "state in which one lives a sinning life" whereby the law of sin and death rules (sin and you die). Some commentators allude to the "body of sin" being the Roman custom of chaining a corpse to defeated enemies which they then had to drag around.
Paul presents the context that the "body of death" is related to "his wretchedness" a wretchedness whereby he "does what he does not want to do" for he is "carnal and sold under sin." A Christian is not "carnal and sold under sin," "nor do they keep doing what they don't want to do" nor are they "wretched needing deliverance" because the the "spirit of life in Jesus Christ HAS set them free from the law of sin and death."
I seems to me that you are focusing exclusively on physical death for some reason and are thus presenting a paradigm devoid of any mention of being set free from the bondage of sin and made pure.
I reiterate that the Bible teaches that there is a death that is resultant of "every man's sin."
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Paul speaks of this death...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Notice in the above that "this death" is not some "inherited state" but is resultant of being drawn away and yielding to the lusts of the flesh.
Yet it appears you are wanting to omit this aspect.
Here is another example...
Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
That parable illustrated "a death" that was not a physical death. If there is no such thing as spiritual death then what kind of death is it referring to?
Your theology needs to have at its basis a Son of Man who is dwelling in a condemned nature one which is destined to die regardless of his moral purity. The flesh is mortal yes BUT the flesh is not a condemned nature. Adam was made mortal and was not condemned until he sinned.
Anything more or less than this is falsehood.
Purity
You contradicted yourself. You said Adam was mortal then you said his death came post exiting the garden. Mortal and physical death are the same thing. There is no such thing as spiritual death and its a term not used in the Garden - I believe this is true conjecture. So the only death you perceive is "mortal death" and "physical death" (which I agree are the same thing).
You only think I contradicted myself because you make no distinction between dying spiritually and dying physically thus when I make the distinction you see the distinctive differences as contradictory.
What kind of death is this referring to...
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
In other words, death is brought forth to every man when the sin conceived by the lust of which drew him away is finished.
Is that "physical death" in your mind?
What about the slaying here...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
In Romans 7:9 and 7:11 Paul says he was killed. What kind of death is that?
Maybe you could define what you mean by spiritual death?
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
There is no life apart from God. Apart from God there is only death. The Logos is the way, the truth and the life, apart from one can only be lost, in darkness and in death.
No sinner can stand before God having defiled themselves with sin (hence Adam and Eve hid). God is holy and it is impossible for one who has defiled themselves to stand before God in such a state for the light of God cuts right to the core of one's being. Men may fool themselves but they cannot fool God, nor can any man fool themselves when standing in front of God All it takes is ONE act of rebellion for God's ways are right, He is the Creator and walk in discordance with His will is to utterly oppose reality. Once anyone does that they are guilty and that guilt cannot be undone by any future action on the part of the guilty.
This is why the only means by which we can be reconciled to God is through being sprinkled by the blood. Our hearts have to be made clean whereby the defilement due to our past sin is completely washed away.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Remember God said, "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." God wasn't warning Adam that if he disobeyed that he would be kicked out of the garden, denied access to the tree of life and that sometime down later on he would die. NO! God said "IN THE DAY." The severe consequences to be wrought due Adam's disobedience were spiritual in nature. The ensuing curse I believe was to bring home to Adam and Eve the severity of what had occurred as well as to deprive that which requires the responsible use of faculties (living forever). God was not going to have those in opposition to Him living forever. Thus he cursed them and set forth a plan of redemption in the hope they would wake up and return to Him. That's one aspect of how I see it.
Purity
We die for two reasons:
1. Moral Sin
2. Inherited condemned nature
Again the flesh body in and of itself is not a condemned nature otherwise Adam was created with this inherited condemned nature. You are not taking this scripture into account...
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Perhaps you believe that the "tree of life" only applied to immortality AFTER one sinned? Or perhaps you see the whole passage as a metaphor? I'd like to hear your explanation.
Jesus had 2 but not 1
Not so.
The teaching is well established by the Apostle Paul who understood there was no good thing in his flesh. Not to mean his physical flesh was there sin itself! But to mean from his nature manifested sin and therefore by its metonymy is Paul able to say its sinful flesh or sin's flesh. It appears my understanding can competently have Christ in such nature whereas it appears you cannot. That is because you are viewing the flesh itself as a condemned nature. A sinner is condemned spiritually, the death of the flesh is secondary.
Again all your focus seems to be on the PHYSICAL as opposed to the SPIRITUAL. Thus you view the kinsman redeemer of Jesus Christ as redeeming us from the PHYSICAL CURSE whilst you appear to omit the redemption that is SPIRITUAL. I'll have to go back and read your older posts because I seem to remember liking what you wrote and if I liked what you wrote then you must have been contending for something related to purity of heart because that is where I stand.
For you to say that "sin is manifested from the flesh" is to redefine sin from being a "moral issue" to being a "physical issue." That is GNOSTICISM in its purest form and I don't care how one dresses it up in Biblical terminology. I have read church history and I have read gnostic philosophy and they are markedly different and the early church clearly repudiated this notion of "sin being of the flesh." I know people use Paul to promote it but they TWIST his writings and read this philosophy into what he wrote. The bottom line of this doctrine when the fluff is stripped away is ALWAYS a defence of ongoing defilement because it teaches that defilement is necessitated by the flesh.
Satan has redefined the nature of man via philosophical inferences which are then been read into the Bible which result in the Gospel being completely redefined. This is a STRONG DELUSION.
This is certainly something for you to chew over. I chew over it almost all day every day. I try and approach these things from every angle for I don't want to be deceived. I examine my own beliefs very strictly. If you can show me my fault clearly with scripture then I will yield. All I want is the truth because opinions are absolutely worthless if they do not line up with the truth.
Where have I said that? Sorry. I saw that by implication. While you may not see "sin as a substance of the flesh" you clearly do see "sin as manifested by the corrupted nature" that you perceive as the flesh.
You have too because your theology cannot have Christ in sin's flesh! Jesus Christ was made flesh. The same flesh we are, the same flesh with its associated passions and desires. The only difference with Jesus is the choices He made. He walked in union with the Spirit of God His whole life and thus was a doer of the will of the Father. Thus he was tempted in all points as we are but he was not drawn away by such temptation. Of course being divine he possessed the divine nature which we do not at birth. Thus I don't think Jesus was ever spiritually ignorant even though He had to grow in knowledge and learn obedience.
Take 2 Cor 5:21 - you know it is referring to Christ's nature but you are not willing to accept it! It is a clear reference to the Word being made flesh.
'God made Christ, who knew no sin (as an individual, by his own actions), to be "sin" (through his corporate head, ie Adam - metonymy: cause for effect; undeserved, in group: see Gal 4:4; Rom 8:3; Heb 2:14-15) for us.. I see no problem with this as stated. I do have a problem with this though being presented within the context of the flesh being a "condemned nature" as I have laid out above. Jesus was born mortal not condemned. Jesus had to eat and drink to sustain his flesh and so did Adam before he sinned. Mortal flesh does not equal condemnation, after all there is no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus and yet STILL physically die is there? The flesh has NOTHING to do with whether one is under condemnation or not, it is an issue of the heart and whether was in and enemy of God or not.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [Being IN the flesh is the OPPOSITE of being IN Christ.]
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Jesus Christ was in a flesh body but was not "in the flesh," instead He was "in the Spirit" and thus was LED by the Spirit of God. Jesus did not have a "condemned nature" He had the DIVINE NATURE. There was not "two natures" in Christ, there was the two aspects of being the Son of Man and the Son of God but that is not dualism. Dualism teaches that there are two natures in all men, a flesh nature and a spiritual nature. Dualism teaches that these natures are at war with one another and that the flesh restrains the spiritual nature. Thus the spiritual nature can never be free until it is released from the bonds of the flesh.
The Bible teaches that man has ONE nature. It is either a carnal nature or a spiritual nature and this nature develops over time. When we sin we adopt the carnal nature and cast aside the spiritual nature which is why that to partake in the Divine Nature we have to be set free from the corruption that is in the world through LUST. That means we have to be set free from being driven by carnal desire.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Not a gradual putting off of the corruption that is in the world through lust. NO! ESCAPING IT via the death of the old man whereby the body of sin is destroyed.
Satan by introducing dualism into church orthodoxy as undermined the death of the old man by introducing underlying tenets which give rise to the teaching that the flesh is GRADUALLY crucified thus giving support to idea of the double-minded Christian, a Christian who serves TWO MASTERS. It is on the back of this philosophical system that salvation then must be viewed as FORENSIC.
This deception is layer upon layer upon layer of error. One lie supports another on top of it which in turn supports another. To expose this lie one must dig to the root and rip the foundation out. It is then that the whole thing just falls apart.
Jesus Christ was God's visitation to men in order to bring them out of slavery. Jesus conquered this world leading the way with a call to all men to FOLLOW.
