Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[marks]

Romans 8:23-25 (KJV)23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

 

[Lizbeth]

Sin does NOT live in a born again Christian, that is why a born again Christian cannot commit lawless sin. The sin nature has been crucified and we are free from sin.

How could Paul instruct non-believers to walk in the spirit ?(Rom 8 which continues on from Rom 7).........Rom 7 has to be talking to and about born again believers. He spoke first about how when he was under the law he couldn't have victory over sin and then he sort of flows into essentially saying that believers likewise can't have victory through the law but only through Christ, His Spirit. There are other clear indications in Rom 7 that it is addressing believers:

Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

He is instructing and enlightening believers because we need it........deliverance and victory from all sin doesn't come automatically (for everyone), but through learning, growing and having our minds renewed, etc. Otherwise we wouldn't need all the new testament instruction/teaching.

 

[Lizbeth]

Romans 8:23-25 (KJV)23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Amen. We still "have" sin while these bodies are still alive, but victory means it is put under our/Christ's feet and we can live above it, so to speak. It doesn't literally cease to "exist" until the body of sin dies. Being crucified with Christ is a manner of speaking, not literal.....it is talking about the power/dominion of sin and old man being hamstrung...it's ability to rule over the believer has been taken away. But the potential to rebuild what has been "destroyed" still exists while the flesh still exists.

 

[marks]

Amen. We still "have" sin while these bodies are still alive, but victory means it is put under our/Christ's feet and we can live above it, so to speak. It doesn't literally cease to "exist" until the body of sin dies. Being crucified with Christ is a manner of speaking, not literal.....it is talking about the power/dominion of sin and old man being hamstrung...it's ability to rule over the believer has been taken away. But the potential to rebuild what has been "destroyed" still exists while the flesh still exists.

Personally I see our being crucified in Christ to be a real thing that happened, and actually did kill the old man, and that God resurrected us with Him with a new spirit.

To me it's like I was an incompetent driver of a wrecked car. Being reborn is like being remade into someone who can now drive, even getting better with practice, but still in a wrecked car.

Much love!

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Sin does NOT live in a born again Christian, that is why a born again Christian cannot commit lawless sin. The sin nature has been crucified and we are free from sin.

Then where does the sin you say you DO commit reside?

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Unfortunately, there are many people in the church that still struggle with sin because they've never been born again of the Spirit.

It's ridiculous for you to say this since you don't include struggling with kindness, or patience, or rage, or unfaithfulness, or gentleness, or love, or long-suffering, or goodness, or forgiveness in the sin that people who are born again can't commit. You're making a meaningless, worthless argument.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

How could Paul instruct non-believers to walk in the spirit ?(Rom 8 which continues on from Rom 7).........Rom 7 has to be talking to and about born again believers. He spoke first about how when he was under the law he couldn't have victory over sin and then he sort of flows into essentially saying that believers likewise can't have victory through the law but only through Christ, His Spirit. There are other clear indications in Rom 7 that it is addressing believers:

Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

He is instructing and enlightening believers because we need it........deliverance and victory from all sin doesn't come automatically (for everyone), but through learning, growing and having our minds renewed, etc. Otherwise we wouldn't need all the new testament instruction/teaching.

It seems only Catholics and Orthodox still have the knowledge that there are two types of sin. The Reformation dumbed down this knowledge to "sin is sin" and then you believe because you commit an unintentional swear word when you hit your thumb with a hammer that you spoke of, you now can't see yourself free from sin. We are free from sin unto death, any sin that God commanded they be put to death, like sorcery, adultery, murder, stealing, even teenage rebellion against their parents. This freedom from sins unto death happens in an instant when Jesus takes away sins unto death from our nature, leaving it clean for the first time. This happens in an instant when we truly repent and Jesus, as the Author of our faith, cleanses us from all unrighteousness. This is why Jesus said, you must be born again.

Now comes the second phase where Jesus as the Finisher of our faith starts maturing the fruit of the Spirit over a long process found in 2 Peter 1:5-7 until we "never stumble." 2 Peter 1:10-11

These two phases are the difference between Jesus making us righteous, then holy.

 

[Anchorite]

What verse in scripture says Jesus takes away sins unto death from our nature?

Sin unto death is mentioned only once. But it says a brother or sister can commit it.

1 John 5:16

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

What verse in scripture says Jesus takes away sins unto death from our nature?

Sin unto death is mentioned only once. But it says a brother or sister can commit it.

1 John 5:16

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

This is why we are not to pray for a Christian who commits a sin unto death after they have been cleansed from these mortal sins. Look at Numbers 15:22-36. There you will first see the type of sin that is NOT unto death, but in 30-36 the sins unto death. They stoned them to death A Christian cannot commit sins unto death, UNLESS they willfully apostatize. Once a Christian apostatizes they cannot repent, thus it is useless to pray for them.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Then where does the sin you say you DO commit reside?

The cleansed nature. 1 John 1:7 shows a Christian walking in the light. Sins of eternal death have been cleansed from the sin nature you were born with. Unintentional sins not unto death is the only type of sin that the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse until, at last, we "never stumble."

 

[Lizbeth]

It seems only Catholics and Orthodox still have the knowledge that there are two types of sin. The Reformation dumbed down this knowledge to "sin is sin" and then you believe because you commit an unintentional swear word when you hit your thumb with a hammer that you spoke of, you now can't see yourself free from sin. We are free from sin unto death, any sin that God commanded they be put to death, like sorcery, adultery, murder, stealing, even teenage rebellion against their parents. This freedom from sins unto death happens in an instant when Jesus takes away sins unto death from our nature, leaving it clean for the first time. This happens in an instant when we truly repent and Jesus, as the Author of our faith, cleanses us from all unrighteousness. This is why Jesus said, you must be born again.

Now comes the second phase where Jesus as the Finisher of our faith starts maturing the fruit of the Spirit over a long process found in 2 Peter 1:5-7 until we "never stumble." 2 Peter 1:10-11

These two phases are the difference between Jesus making us righteous, then holy.

I believe there are two types of sin.......either wilful or unintentional/inadvertent sins. But the sin unto death (don't know if we could call that the third type) I believe speaks to blaspheming the Holy Spirit since that is the only sin the bible speaks of for which forgiveness is not available.....and that is the reason we are not to waste time praying for "it". Jesus said all other sins can be forgiven and so we are to pray for our brothers/sisters if they commit any other sin. Otherwise we would have to believe we are not to pray for someone who for example, falls into adultery/fornication or was provoked in the heat of the moment to kill someone, or succumbed to the temptation to take something that didn't belong to them. If someone is truly penitent they can be forgiven and restored, although they may have to still live with whatever consequences ensue.

Well, as I've said before, it seems from so many different testimonies, that different graces are given to different souls in the beginning, but I won't belabour it. I agree we are bringing fruit to perfection/maturity.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I believe there are two types of sin.......either wilful or unintentional/inadvertent sins. But the sin unto death (don't know if we could call that the third type) I believe speaks to blaspheming the Holy Spirit since that is the only sin the bible speaks of for which forgiveness is not available.....and that is the reason we are not to waste time praying for "it". Jesus said all other sins can be forgiven and so we are to pray for our brothers/sisters if they commit such. Otherwise we would have to believe we are not to pray for someone who for example, falls into adultery/fornication or was provoked in the heat of the moment to kill someone, or succumbed to the temptation to take something that didn't belong to them. If someone is truly penitent they can be forgiven and restored, although they may have to still live with whatever consequences ensue.

Well, as I've said before, it seems from so many different testimonies, that different graces are given to different souls in the beginning, but I won't belabour it. I agree we are bringing fruit to perfection/maturity.

It is not the third type, except for timing. All sin is cleansed from our past when we become born again. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can only be committed once you have been born again and have the Holy Spirit within you. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be committed by the unsaved. It can only be committed by the born again willfully committing apostasy. There is no more sacrifice for this sin. I know you know this, because you spoke of unintentional sins so beautifully.

Do not believe the error of the Reformation that says otherwise, and adds present and future willful sins unto death.

 

[Anchorite]

This is why we are not to pray for a Christian who commits a sin unto death after they have been cleansed from these mortal sins. Look at Numbers 15:22-36. There you will first see the type of sin that is NOT unto death, but in 30-36 the sins unto death. They stoned them to death A Christian cannot commit sins unto death, UNLESS they willfully apostatize. Once a Christian apostatizes they cannot repent, thus it is useless to pray for them.

But in the New Testament, only two sins led to actual death: Ananias and Sapphira lying about the sales of property and those who failed to discern the Lord’s body during communion.



Acts 5

1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fearseized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.



1 Corinthians 11:29,30,31

29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

30 That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died.

31 But if we would examine ourselves, we would not be judged by God in this way.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

But in the New Testament, only two sins led to actual death: Ananias and Sapphira lying about the sales of property and those who failed to discern the Lord’s body during communion.



Acts 5

1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fearseized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.



1 Corinthians 11:29,30,31

29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

30 That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died.

31 But if we would examine ourselves, we would not be judged by God in this way.

Many Christians do not even read the Old Testament that is our schoolmaster. There we find unintentional sins and sins unto death.

 

[Anchorite]

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be committed by the unsaved. It can only be committed by the born again willfully committing apostasy. There is no more sacrifice for this sin.

Do not believe the error of the Reformation that says otherwise, and adds present and future willful sins unto death.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is defined by Jesus.

It is saying that Jesus had an unclean spirit, thus speaking badly about the Holy Spirit, and unsaved Pharisees committed this sin.


Matthew 3

22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.”

23 And he called them to him and said to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan?

24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.

26 And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.

27 But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.

28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,

29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

30 for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

 

[marks]

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is defined by Jesus.

It is saying that Jesus had an unclean spirit, thus speaking badly about the Holy Spirit, and unsaved Pharisees committed this sin.


Matthew 3

22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.”

23 And he called them to him and said to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan?

24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.

26 And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.

27 But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.

28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,

29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

30 for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Indeed!

Jesus performed His miracles as authentication of Who He is. The Pharisees could not deny the miracles, so they attributed them to an unclean spirit, blaspheming the Holy Spirit, the true source of the miracles.

They declared the Holy Spirit was an unclean spirit, so the people wouldn't follow Jesus out of the Pharisees' envy over His popularity.

I appreciate that you understand this, as so many make out the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to be any number of other things. This shows you simply believe the Bible, and I LOVE that!

Much love!

 

[Anchorite]

Indeed!

Jesus performed His miracles as authentication of Who He is. The Pharisees could not deny the miracles, so they attributed them to an unclean spirit, blaspheming the Holy Spirit, the true source of the miracles.

They declared the Holy Spirit was an unclean spirit, so the people wouldn't follow Jesus out of the Pharisees' envy over His popularity.

I appreciate that you understand this, as so many make out the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to be any number of other things. This shows you simply believe the Bible, and I LOVE that!

Much love!

Thanks for the support.

It is strange when people make up a definition based on their own theological fantasy, when the Bible clearly explains it.

 

[RandyDawson]

I'm sorry, but I just have to ask.

Have you personally achieved this sinless perfection of which you speak? Or know anyone other than Christ who has?

If so, was it sustainable?

I've had some really great days in the Lord, have been graced with much victory over sin, and fought my way upon my knees to other victories that didn't come so easily. But this idea of sinless perfection. It's a precious notion for sure, but achievable?

Here's the thing, it's not literally sinless perfection per se. It's more like living in Christ where God sees and treats us as though we have no sin currently going on in our life. It's not that we have never sinned in the past or that it's not possible that we could sin at some point in the future.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Abiding in Christ is walking in the light, aka walking in the Spirit which is being led by the Holy Spirit as we live in agreement with the Lord not having anything in our lives that we know to be sin (this would include things God says in the bible are sinful) because to him that knows to do good and does it not to him it is sin (James 4:17)

Romans 8:13 - For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live
(That is through the Holy Spirit, not someone trying this on their own apart from the Lord)

Now there are those that have been taught that it's not possible to ever stop sinning. I think the reformed theology camp frequently claims this along with those who aren't reformed but have been influenced by their teachings as many have been. I've seen people like this claim they sin daily in thought word and deed which is what they have been taught to believe. And if someone comes along saying they are walking after the Spirit and currently has no known sin in their lives, many from the reformed theology camp will accuse them of claiming they are saying they have never sinned and can't possibly sin which is not what is being said.

What happens is both side start attacking each other one side claiming "you people just live in sin all day long by your own admission" and then the other side claiming "you people think you are all powerful like you are God or something" and of course any conversation between the two camps goes of the rails rather quickly.

All I know is that I was not raised going to church so when I got born again I was a blank canvas that knew zero about the Lord. And when I got born again it hit me like a ton of bricks so to speak and somehow I knew immediately some of the things I was doing in my life up till that time was wrong and had to be stopped. I never had the Holy Spirit lead me to believe I could keep doing things I knew were wrong and still be in right standing with the Lord.

I think that's where a lot of disagreement comes in is some seem to be saying that if a person is living in sin they are still saved even though there are things the Lord teaches in the bible that say otherwise. Not sure what everyone is going to do about all that. I just know in my own life that I cannot do things I know are wrong and if I did something that was wrong the Lord calls me out on it immediately and I use 1 John 1:9 to confess my sins to the Lord asking Him to forgive me so I can be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

I've seen many discussions about this topic and I doubt the two camps will every agree on much and will continue getting upset at each other so there's not a lot of use in arguing about it which is why I tend to throw out a few blurbs here and there and then let the two camps continue arguing with one another.

 

[shepherdsword]

Thanks for the support.

It is strange when people make up a definition based on their own theological fantasy, when the Bible clearly explains it.

Agree 100% .....We have another guy here who claims it is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit if you don't receive what he says....because he is a (claims) prophet.

Welcome back by the way...been a few weeks since we heard from you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Thanks for the support.

It is strange when people make up a definition based on their own theological fantasy, when the Bible clearly explains it.

So you are not a cessationist who believes the gifts of the Spirit have passed and are no more?