Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[amigo de christo]

I didn't say the gospel of salvation originated with the Reformation, but that they restored it after the RCC had silenced and suppressed it for a very long time.

I've noticed that whenever doctrine becomes enshrined or encapsulated in extra-biblical terminology it misses the mark......it leads to wrong concepts being set up in the mind......false doctrine. The bible doesn't talk about mortal and venial sins. And there IS a sense in which sin IS sin, in that it all leads to separation from God. Sin is missing the mark and falling short of the glory, it is going our own way instead of God's. And ALL have sinned, even if not in what we consider to be the big ways ("mortal" sins).....it nevertheless led to death and separation from God in every instance, according to God's word.

and even some of them restored additions and subtractions from the gospel , from JESUS own words .
Take calvin as an example . The man actually did a redo on what the RCC had first done .
And just like what the RCC had done
that man by merging the earthern and the heavenly
Would have a comittee doing actual harm to folks who did not adhere to its ways .
THis might suprise some
but calivin did have a committe and by means of such some were put into prison and some even killed .
NOW while i agree that witchcraft and etc is sin , WHEN were we to put them in prison and execute .
THAT IS What happens when folks try and MERGE the two sister .
Soon many are gonna see this again , as now they have been at work merging
earthern with heavenly and have created the inclusive world state religion
that once again will be enforced and many who conform not put to death .
My advice remains the same as it has for many years .
Let all open those bibles and begin anew and afresh for themselves.
And heed not any who says YE cannot learn it lest ye sit under our etc and us .
THEY LIE to you and to us all . By grace one can learn that bible .
And if they do they will soon see , OH DEAR they been lying to us all . And they would flee
those tabernacles of men who MERGE the two .

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Please show me again, because I don't recall you proving anything you believe with Scripture.

What used to be 'sin unto death' in the old covenant is forgiven in this New Covenant.

Acts 13:39
39And in Him everyone believing is justified from all things from which you⁺ were not able to be justified in the law of Moses.

Read that verse and then tell me that adultery, for example, is not able to be forgiven in this New Covenant, as you claim. You can't, of course. It's no longer a sin that can't be forgiven and for which one must die.

So the sin unto death in 1 John 5:16 can't be the sins that used to be unto death. He's talking about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That is the only sin remaining that is unto death. It was in the old covenant, and it is in this New Covenant. It has always been the sin unto death and always will be. It is an eternal sin.

Mark 3:28-29
28Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.”

That's why you don't pray for the person who has done that. But you would most certainly pray for someone who is in adultery, or idolatry. For there is forgiveness for those sins in this New Covenant.

 

[ProDeo]

In Romans 6, Paul speaks of being free from sin, and at the end "the wages of sin is death." But in 1 John 5:17 John says there is sin not unto death. So there are two different categories of sin, just like in the Old Testament, our schoolmaster. Sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death. This is why after being cleansed of all unrighteousness, and in 1 John 3:9 a born again Christian cannot commit sin (in context with verse 4 the sin (unto death) called lawlessness.) in 1 John 1:7 we see that a born again Christian can commit sins not unto death because they are continually being cleansed. From the Old Testament we see these are UNINTENTIONAL sins. We would certainly KNOW if we willfully broke a commandment of God, so this verse is not about those. What is left are sins not unto death. Simple when you know the whole Bible.

I will answer in a separate post, need a nap first

So who died? Someone did. Do you know who?

2Sam 12:13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

So, your speculations (presented as truth) about adultery and murder are unforgivable are false, David committed them both, repented and he did not die.

 

[Lizbeth]

and even some of them restored additions and subtractions from the gospel , from JESUS own words .
Take calvin as an example . The man actually did a redo on what the RCC had first done .
And just like what the RCC had done
that man by merging the earthern and the heavenly
Would have a comittee doing actual harm to folks who did not adhere to its ways .
THis might suprise some
but calivin did have a committe and by means of such some were put into prison and some even killed .
NOW while i agree that witchcraft and etc is sin , WHEN were we to put them in prison and execute .
THAT IS What happens when folks try and MERGE the two sister .
Soon many are gonna see this again , as now they have been at work merging
earthern with heavenly and have created the inclusive world state religion
that once again will be enforced and many who conform not put to death .
My advice remains the same as it has for many years .
Let all open those bibles and begin anew and afresh for themselves.
And heed not any who says YE cannot learn it lest ye sit under our etc and us .
THEY LIE to you and to us all . By grace one can learn that bible .
And if they do they will soon see , OH DEAR they been lying to us all . And they would flee
those tabernacles of men who MERGE the two .

Amen......very sad that the Reformers had not divested themselves of everything they had imbibed in the RCC. Reminds me of the Israelites after leaving Egypt but still needed to get the Egypt out of them...they had not yet matured. And the same danger exists today. The church needs to discern, distinguish and separate between the common/profane and the holy. Church is not government, it is to be separate and holy to the Lord.......church and government need to remain separate. Law was added because of transgression.......it is meant to be a deterrent to lawlessness, as well as to protect the innocent and grant justice to victims.....but it is not the role of the church body. Our sword is not a carnal weapon.

 

[Lizbeth]

I will answer in a separate post, need a nap first



2Sam 12:13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

So, your speculations (presented as truth) about adultery and murder are unforgivable are false, David committed them both, repented and he did not die.

Amen. The death of David and Bathsheba's child was not wrath but chastisement. We certainly may suffer consequences for our wrongs as believers....the Lord chastises and disciplines us as sons for our good.....but it is not unto death/wrath. (Except for sins that are persistently engaged in wilfully without repentance.)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I have a right to post whatever I like. You don't have to listen. What is sad is trying to find a church where I know less than the pastor. I usually know more. I've been given the office of Teacher by God, Himself. He spoke to me about it in June, 2000. And it is His Spirit that has wiped my mind of all doctrines of man, especially from the Reformation which many of their doctrines are straight from demons. Jesus said of the beginning of the Reformation that their new unscriptural doctrines will cause eternal death.

I think sometimes I misunderstand what you are saying. I read into it what I think you are saying. Your post are helpful. You do have a lot of insight. I wish more my mind could be settled on His perfection. I personally don’t think you are wrong to encourage the perfecting of Christ. It’s not this post above necessarily, but others throughout the thread you have shared. I want to come at it as if you are teaching superiority or achieving something others do not have, but Paul was misunderstood often for example when He spoke of their needing milk and not ready for meat …his heart I think was not putting them down but encouraging them to grow. One thing I keep in mind along with your post is when God says to bring to Him the whole sacrifice. I take that as whole and perfect without blemish. I take that to mean we are not offering to Him others flaws and imperfection but supposed to encourage “made whole” in Him.

 

[marks]

Think what you like about it. David repented before the birth. Death came to David's house. God was just.

You are manipulating the story to make it fit your view. This is as plain as is the day.

 

[ProDeo]

In Romans 6, Paul speaks of being free from sin, and at the end "the wages of sin is death." But in 1 John 5:17 John says there is sin not unto death. So there are two different categories of sin, just like in the Old Testament, our schoolmaster. Sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death. This is why after being cleansed of all unrighteousness, and in 1 John 3:9 a born again Christian cannot commit sin (in context with verse 4 the sin (unto death) called lawlessness.) in 1 John 1:7 we see that a born again Christian can commit sins not unto death because they are continually being cleansed. From the Old Testament we see these are UNINTENTIONAL sins. We would certainly KNOW if we willfully broke a commandment of God, so this verse is not about those. What is left are sins not unto death. Simple when you know the whole Bible.

Okay, you have given your repentance testimony, here is mine. Please note the difference, you were in church for 30 years, me I never went to church before my conversion, so I knew very little about the Lord, but just enough as it turned out!

It was Saturday, September 28, 1974, between 18:00 and 18:30, in the Netherlands, The Hague, Starterstraat 24, the house of my lovely grandmother when I frightening realized that nobody could help me in my misery. Exactly after that realization the thought came : what about God? Without thinking I went to the bedroom fell on my knees and said "If You really exist God, help me". Not a very devout prayer. But despite the insult the answer came immediately, words fail to describe, I was baptized in His Love, I felt His love in about every cell in my body, He was all around me, an amazing experience was my part. I never felt so good in my life, totally clean, liberated.

And I sat there on a chair in my grandmother's bedroom, wondering, pondering, steaming what just happened to me. And I could not figure it out. All I knew for sure it was God. And it felt so good. After 5-10 minutes I decided the least I could do was to thank Him. So on my knees again wanting to say thank you, but before I could speak the same exact love experience was my part again. What an answer!

About 2 hours later, as it was common on a Saturday, I went to the house of my fiance (still my lovely wife) and she said : what happened to you, you radiate from tip to toe? And I could not answer her, I did not know what to say, I had to process things first.

So far the introduction, now the point I am trying to make, there is another part to the story.

Later that evening I went home through the city of The Hague, about an hour walk, in about the middle making a stop as I used to be to my local pub to meet my friends, have fun, play some cards and billiards. When I was away about 50-60 meters from the pub (in retrospect, as I did not understand then) the Lord opened my eyes and showed me the large street in front of me and I saw the city as the Lord saw it, dark, dirty and full of sin. And I did not realize enough it was a warning not to go to the pub and I went anyway, and it did not feel good. And I went a second time likely the next day and finally saw, I don't belong here any longer. And I stopped going.

Now Who told me that, me who had no clue of sin, suddenly my conscience was speaking, told me things to stop, told me to do things, me having zero knowledge of Scripture, only knew the name Jesus, knew nothing about Him. And I did not know where these thoughts were coming from. As I later learned from the Holy Spirit, the Comforter (John 16:8).

Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

That's it, the Holy Spirit is the new author of my conscience, replacing old with new, inspired by the Scriptures.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Apparently it is possible that one can be born again and illuminated but still be drawn away and fall from grace

Drawn away by what? By the practice of sin that John says a born again person can't do because God's seed remains in them?

1 John 3:9
9Everyone having been born of God does not do sin, because His seed remains in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.

Apparently, a born again person can't sin himself out of salvation. That means the born again person must go back to unbelief to no longer be born again and thus commit the sin that he can't commit as a born again believer and be lost. Can a true born again believer do that? That is what is in legitimate debate, IMO.

But it's a worthless argument. All of us agree that the believing person must continue to believe to the very end to be saved through the judgment in the very end (the exception being the stain of 'believers' in the church in these last days who claim you do not have to continue to believe to the end to be saved through the coming judgment).

Believing, and continuing to believe, is what matters. And the Bible exhorts everyone to keep believing. That is our common ground. I detest how we have ignored Paul's counsel to stop rallying behind specific teachers and as a result instantly divide ourselves according to whose doctrinal camp we identify with. What we should be doing is addressing individual doctrinal beliefs, not rallying behind doctrinal labels. We instantly shut off anything of value and truth that a person might say that is in another doctrinal camp than our own because of these artificial, un-Biblical, ungodly divisions we have created amongst ourselves. I listen to all camps and I learn from all of them.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Why doesn't Calvinism include 1 John 3:5?

It does.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I didn't say the gospel of salvation originated with the Reformation, but that they restored it after the RCC had silenced and suppressed it for a very long time.

I've noticed that whenever doctrine becomes enshrined or encapsulated in extra-biblical terminology it misses the mark......it leads to wrong concepts being set up in the mind......false doctrine. The bible doesn't talk about mortal and venial sins. And there IS a sense in which sin IS sin, in that it all leads to separation from God. Sin is missing the mark and falling short of the glory, it is going our own way instead of God's. And ALL have sinned, even if not in what we consider to be the big ways ("mortal" sins).....it nevertheless led to death and separation from God in every instance, according to God's word.

That sounds interesting about salvation. What was the RCC version, and what is the Ref version? Thanks.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Read that verse and then tell me that adultery, for example, is not able to be forgiven in this New Covenant, as you claim. You can't, of course. It's no longer a sin that can't be forgiven and for which one must die.

All sins unto death are taken away when we repent and become born again of the Spirit. We no longer want to do those things. They are what Peter says is our "old sins." Paul says of these sins we are free from sin. They were in the "old man" sin nature which was crucified, and resurrected clean. Therefore, our past sins are forgiven, no matter what heinous thing we did. Even murder. A Christian may now take on the divine nature of God, also by Peter, and then by our fruits the world will know we are Christians. At least, that should describe the born again of the Spirit. In my case, I went to church for almost 30 years BEFORE I was born again of the Spirit, and I went from night to day.

Then the only way through our free will would a born again Christian commit these sins again is through apostasy for which there is no more sacrifice in Jesus. THAT is why we are not to pray for someone who commits apostasy. They have sinned against the Holy Spirit within them, and quenched Him.

 

[Marvelloustime]

and even some of them restored additions and subtractions from the gospel , from JESUS own words .
Take calvin as an example . The man actually did a redo on what the RCC had first done .
And just like what the RCC had done
that man by merging the earthern and the heavenly
Would have a comittee doing actual harm to folks who did not adhere to its ways .
THis might suprise some
but calivin did have a committe and by means of such some were put into prison and some even killed .
NOW while i agree that witchcraft and etc is sin , WHEN were we to put them in prison and execute .
THAT IS What happens when folks try and MERGE the two sister .
Soon many are gonna see this again , as now they have been at work merging
earthern with heavenly and have created the inclusive world state religion
that once again will be enforced and many who conform not put to death .
My advice remains the same as it has for many years .
Let all open those bibles and begin anew and afresh for themselves.
And heed not any who says YE cannot learn it lest ye sit under our etc and us .
THEY LIE to you and to us all . By grace one can learn that bible .
And if they do they will soon see , OH DEAR they been lying to us all . And they would flee
those tabernacles of men who MERGE the two .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

They all knew and they all warned and reminded .
For he who endures to the end the same shall be saved .
Many look at that statment and now see it as legalism and not trusting in Christ .
BUT was it NOT HE who said it and later we can see the apostels , specially paul , confirming this .
Men have brought much confusion to this people . If only they would again
start reading the scriptures for themselves , and not through the lens of denominations of men , but for themselves
this would have been cleared up .
The message to the seven churches would have been enough for me to have seen this .
But many are the other places that confirm it .
That which often pleases and ticlkles the ear of man , is contrary to TRUTH
If a man could indeed die , be put to death under the law for despising that covenant .
HOW much worse when they grab ahold of an all inclusive gospel and make void the NEW covenant of GOD .
IF we think death is bad , THERE IS something far worse than mere death . its the SEcOND death .
Many now Trod the gospel of JESUS under foot for a lie . And as a lie always does
IT makes void the TRUTH . There is indeed a massively huge Jezabeel who does teach
and seduce this people . And this sheep gonna warn out against her and her ecuemincal inclusive
love and her peace plan of many anti christs .

@amigo de christo

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are manipulating the story to make it fit your view. This is as plain as is the day.

It is not written, so we are free to accept what the Spirit reveals to us, if anything. Because of the Spirit, I am sure why God took his son.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think sometimes I misunderstand what you are saying. I read into it what I think you are saying. Your post are helpful. You do have a lot of insight. I wish more my mind could be settled on His perfection. I personally don’t think you are wrong to encourage the perfecting of Christ. It’s not this post above necessarily, but others throughout the thread you have shared. I want to come at it as if you are teaching superiority or achieving something others do not have, but Paul was misunderstood often for example when He spoke of their needing milk and not ready for meat …his heart I think was not putting them down but encouraging them to grow. One thing I keep in mind along with your post is when God says to bring to Him the whole sacrifice. I take that as whole and perfect without blemish. I take that to mean we are not offering to Him others flaws and imperfection but supposed to encourage “made whole” in Him.

I find myself having to defend Jesus and the fact He came to defeat the works of the devil, and take away our desire to sin. Many of the doctrines in the Church today are his teachings. One I heard on the radio was "we will always sin unto we die and are resurrected with new bodies," as if our body is the source of sin. NO! It is the inner self, the "old man," our mind and heart. Its not the brain, but the invisible mind in it, nor our beating heart, but the conscience within it. These are what are born again now and filled with the Spirit of Christ. We must be made righteous today, not after we die and belong to the demons forever.

Revelation 22:11 "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

1 John 3:4-9 "
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Okay, you have given your repentance testimony, here is mine. Please note the difference, you were in church for 30 years, me I never went to church before my conversion, so I knew very little about the Lord, but just enough as it turned out!

It was Saturday, September 28, 1974, between 18:00 and 18:30, in the Netherlands, The Hague, Starterstraat 24, the house of my lovely grandmother when I frightening realized that nobody could help me in my misery. Exactly after that realization the thought came : what about God? Without thinking I went to the bedroom fell on my knees and said "If You really exist God, help me". Not a very devout prayer. But despite the insult the answer came immediately, words fail to describe, I was baptized in His Love, I felt His love in about every cell in my body, He was all around me, an amazing experience was my part. I never felt so good in my life, totally clean, liberated.

And I sat there on a chair in my grandmother's bedroom, wondering, pondering, steaming what just happened to me. And I could not figure it out. All I knew for sure it was God. And it felt so good. After 5-10 minutes I decided the least I could do was to thank Him. So on my knees again wanting to say thank you, but before I could speak the same exact love experience was my part again. What an answer!

About 2 hours later, as it was common on a Saturday, I went to the house of my fiance (still my lovely wife) and she said : what happened to you, you radiate from tip to toe? And I could not answer her, I did not know what to say, I had to process things first.

So far the introduction, now the point I am trying to make, there is another part to the story.

Later that evening I went home through the city of The Hague, about an hour walk, in about the middle making a stop as I used to be to my local pub to meet my friends, have fun, play some cards and billiards. When I was away about 50-60 meters from the pub (in retrospect, as I did not understand then) the Lord opened my eyes and showed me the large street in front of me and I saw the city as the Lord saw it, dark, dirty and full of sin. And I did not realize enough it was a warning not to go to the pub and I went anyway, and it did not feel good. And I went a second time likely the next day and finally saw, I don't belong here any longer. And I stopped going.

Now Who told me that, me who had no clue of sin, suddenly my conscience was speaking, told me things to stop, told me to do things, me having zero knowledge of Scripture, only knew the name Jesus, knew nothing about Him. And I did not know where these thoughts were coming from. As I later learned from the Holy Spirit, the Comforter (John 16:8).

Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

That's it, the Holy Spirit is the new author of my conscience, replacing old with new, inspired by the Scriptures.

That was beautiful! I had a similar experience, except I had been in church for a long time, memorizing large portions of Scripture, but not one prayer was ever answered. It got to the point I questioned if God existed. Then I had something very similar to your experience, and my heart was opened and filled with His love and knowledge. Plus my prayers were answered now.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It does.

You started with 6, not 4 and 5, the context for the whole chapter.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

You started with 6, not 4 and 5, the context for the whole chapter.

Your argument that Calvinism doesn't teach that sin is taken away per 1 John 3:5 is destroyed by the fact that it uses vs. 6-10 to prove that it is.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

We must be made righteous today, not after we die and belong to the demons forever.

All true believers were made forever righteous in God's sight as a free gift of his grace the moment they believed.

It is by this covering of righteousness that they are protected from damnation while they learn to live righteously as they grow up into the image and stature of Jesus, until such a time when at the resurrection they will be changed in an instant and given glorified bodies free of the corrupting deceits and influences of unredeemed flesh and the devil. This is the hope of righteousness for which we patiently wait for in faith.

Scriptural references available on request.