So that he doesn’t reach forth his hand and also eat of the Tree of Life and Live forever.

[VictoryinJesus]

First a short testimony. This past weekend I went to the Women for Joy convention in Myrtle beach with my daughter. Thousands of women were there. The entire trip was so unnatural to all my phobias, anxiety and reclusive nature. The entire trip was a constant crowd. First the bus ride there with fifteen women crammed into one space for four hours, to the house all the women shared, to the convention center where you were always sandwiched in a throng of others. Years ago I could not see myself doing any of this much less, without any anxiety medication. It was so peculiar and out of nature even down to my daughter being the one who invited me to go and her being next to me …seeing her singing and lifting her hands and our talks about God and life. Our talks about the speakers and what thoughts it had brought up in us. Just wanted to share that in so many ways I haven’t seen any works of God in my life; but in other ways I think “wow. I never thought I would be standing here now.”

But I also wanted to share something that stood out to me during the convention. Call it a question. Call it a thought. It is something that stayed in my mind. All the speakers had this in common since it was thousands of women… Eve came up often. All the way back to Adam and Eve and the woman at the first. I’ve often read on here and heard in life about an eternal suffering that burns forever; where in hell this suffering continues for people and is never, nor will it ever be resolved or quenched.

One of the speakers spoke on Adam and Eve being put outside of the garden. I agreed with what the speaker shared because I’ve also seen it as merciful that God cast them out of the garden so they wouldn’t also eat of the Tree of Life and continue on in this state of separated from God. Later our daughter brought this up saying “I’ve always saw it as God being hateful or condemning casting them out of His presence …I’ve never thought of it as His being Merciful.”

This stood out to me at the convention, it staying in my mind about why God did not want them to eat of the tree of Life. Why He removed them from stretching forth their hands and also eating of the Tree of Life and living forever in separation from Him. Others may not like this, and I’m not wanting to debate or fight but share this thought of Hell (torment) and an eternal continuation of separation from God.

To me it goes against why God put them out. So they would not —could not —the way being hidden from them—-to reach out and take of the tree of Life and to be forever left —abandoned—and sustained in constant separation from His Presence. Is that even possible without God? For Life to be sustained never ending without Him or without first the eating of the Tree of Life?

To I struggle with this concept of saying God allows those in eternal hell and suffering of torment to eat of the Tree of Life to be forever, in a constant torment of unresolved …while also this state of torment is confined by eating of the tree (the source) of Life. The very thing God put them out for; to keep them from remaining and eating of the tree of Life to continue on in this separation from Him and His presence. For me it blows apart the theology of this is what eternal suffering is…in Hell …torment is allowed to eat of the Tree of Life and to be in a never ending separation from Him. Sorry but I shake my head not seeing that as who He is or what He desires even from the beginning. Accentuating so they will not also eat of the Tree of Life and continue in this torment.

But instead His not allowing them to reach out and eat of the Tree of Life so they would not remain forever in that condition. Of a permanent separation from Him sustained by eating of the very Tree that gives and sustains Life.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I do not think that is why he did not want them to eat of it.. I think he was going to become the tree of life himself. by dying on the cross..and anyone who partakes of him (john 6) would live forever..

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I do not think that is why he did not want them to eat of it.. I think he was going to become the tree of life himself. by dying on the cross..and anyone who partakes of him (john 6) would live forever..

Agree He is the Tree of Life. But also …if the gospel be hidden it is hidden from those perishing. Perishing not to be sustained …but hidden from those in it. Merciful. (Imo)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agree He is the Tree of Life. But also …if the gospel be hidden it is hidden from those perishing. Perishing not to be sustained …but hidden from those in it. Merciful. (Imo)

I think it can be confusing. What does it mean it is hidden from those perishing.. Why is it hidden. How can God be called a merciful God. Yet he hides this truth so they can not see

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think it can be confusing. What does it mean it is hidden from those perishing.. Why is it hidden. How can God be called a merciful God. Yet he hides this truth so they can not see

You must be born anew?
He speaks of the carnal man who seeks but can’t find, even saying I spoke in parables that seeing they might not see, and in hearing they might not hear. You ask, but you ask that you might consume it on your own lust. Never do we say eating of the tree of Life sustains death and decay but that eating of the Tree of Life overcomes death and the grave. Where Paul (I think it was him) said though the outward man perishes, the inward man is renewed daily. I’m sorry but I question the teaching that the Tree of Life sustains a continued torment. Because that isn’t what we shout but instead the Tree of Life—Christ conquers and overcomes cancers, diseases, plagues, losses, deaths of loved ones, decay and sorrow upon sorrow and torments of perishing decay. An eating up of, a consuming and wasting away. To me the way is hidden, even in parables … like in the beginning unless now man also reaches out and eats also of the Tree of Life and remains in this condition forever…for the Tree of Life is not meant to sustain this condition that man is now in…the Tree of Life meant for good and not evil—let us remove man and woman so they do not perish forever (eating also of what is meant for their good) left and abandoned forever in their sins; decaying in death and rotting and consuming in their own lust and devises. Never is that what we say but that Christ is the sustainer (source) of Life …not death. That leaves the big question of a hell of torment that never ends…do those in torment eat of the Tree of Life which is why it never ends but continues? Or is it of the devil? Does the devil sustain life? He never said unless they also reach out and eat of the devil also…but no unless they eat of Life also. if they were blinded, would Life (what was meant for good and not evil) then constitute a forever sustaining, never ending, giving of Life to man to be forever blind? Unless man now reaches out in his blind (naked) state and also takes of the Tree of Life and what God intended as very good for the man; becomes evil in keeping the man (God loves by the way); forever imprisoned in his blind (shameful)state.

But didn’t the tree of the knowledge of good and evil open their eyes so they were not blind? Maybe. But in a sense didn’t it also shut their eyes to God? All of a sudden what was so plain(like when Jesus said I’ve spoke to you in parables but there will come a time when the Father will speak plainly and no longer in parables) what had been plain to them begin with a parable itself; of skins to cover up their nakedness. What was so clear walking with God…there they are hiding from God in what is no longer plain or clear. “Their eyes were opened” what did this do to their vision; seeing of God though? This separation that took place?

 

[Jim B]

To me, the lesson in Genesis is a very clear allegory. Everyone has a choice: a) "eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", i.e., depend on our thinking and values to determine what is good and what is not, or b) live by faith, trusting in the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. It is not more complicated than that!

Every person either trusts in her/his self or trusts in God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

To me, the lesson in Genesis is a very clear allegory. Everyone has a choice: a) "eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", i.e., depend on our thinking and values to determine what is good and what is not, or b) live by faith, trusting in the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. It is not more complicated than that!

Every person either trusts in her/his self or trusts in God.

Ok but that is the question. If one chooses the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and to not to eat of the tree of life …then how is the knowledge of good and evil sustained eternally in a forever torment having never eaten or been made to partake of the tree of Life? What sustains it?

 

[Jim B]

Ok but that is the question. If one chooses the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and to not to eat of the tree of life …then how is the knowledge of good and evil sustained eternally in a forever torment having never eaten or been made to partake of the tree of Life? What sustains it?

I can't answer that.

To me, the two trees represent a binary choice: trust one's self or trust God. If a person recognizes that s/he is not perfect, i.e., cannot accurately determine between what is good and what is evil, then s/he must accept their personal weakness and be saved by dying to her/his self and being "resurrected" into the living Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You must be born anew?
He speaks of the carnal man who seeks but can’t find,

I disagree, I says if we seek we will find.

I was a carnal man, and I found.. and he saved me..

even saying I spoke in parables that seeing they might not see, and in hearing they might not hear.

Yes, so he did not hide it from them. he told them the truth. they just kept resisting and became hard

You ask, but you ask that you might consume it on your own lust. Never do we say eating of the tree of Life sustains death and decay but that eating of the Tree of Life overcomes death and the grave. Where Paul (I think it was him) said though the outward man perishes, the inward man is renewed daily. I’m sorry but I question the teaching that the Tree of Life sustains a continued torment. Because that isn’t what we shout but instead the Tree of Life—Christ conquers and overcomes cancers, diseases, plagues, losses, deaths of loved ones, decay and sorrow upon sorrow and torments of perishing decay. An eating up of, a consuming and wasting away. To me the way is hidden, even in parables … like in the beginning unless now man also reaches out and eats also of the Tree of Life and remains in this condition forever…for the Tree of Life is not meant to sustain this condition that man is now in…the Tree of Life meant for good and not evil—let us remove man and woman so they do not perish forever (eating also of what is meant for their good) left and abandoned forever in their sins; decaying in death and rotting and consuming in their own lust and devises. Never is that what we say but that Christ is the sustainer (source) of Life …not death. That leaves the big question of a hell of torment that never ends…do those in torment eat of the Tree of Life which is why it never ends but continues? Or is it of the devil? Does the devil sustain life? He never said unless they also reach out and eat of the devil also…but no unless they eat of Life also. if they were blinded, would Life (what was meant for good and not evil) then constitute a forever sustaining, never ending, giving of Life to man to be forever blind? Unless man now reaches out in his blind (naked) state and also takes of the Tree of Life and what God intended as very good for the man; becomes evil in keeping the man (God loves by the way); forever imprisoned in his blind (shameful)state.

I see this tree of life is Christ.

to those who chose to recieve his grace gift of salvation. they will live forever

to those who reject him (the tree of life) they will remain in a spiritually dead state forever. Hoever, they will still be conscious. as the word says, their worm will never die.

But didn’t the tree of the knowledge of good and evil open their eyes so they were not blind?

Actually they became blind when they ate. The forgot who God was. they blamed Each other as if The forgot God knows all things.. Their eye was opened to what evil was. because they experienced it. but the things of God became foolishness to them

Maybe. But in a sense didn’t it also shut their eyes to God? All of a sudden what was so plain(like when Jesus said I’ve spoke to you in parables but there will come a time when the Father will speak plainly and no longer in parables) what had been plain to them begin with a parable itself a the slaughter to cover up their nakedness. What was so clear walking with God…there they are hiding from God in what is no longer plain or clear. “Their eyes were opened” what did this do to their vision; seeing of God though? This separation that took place?

God draws all men to himself.

It does nto mean all men will chose to see God.. But God makes it clear in romans 1. They have no excuse

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ok but that is the question. If one chooses the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and to not to eat of the tree of life …then how is the knowledge of good and evil sustained eternally in a forever torment having never eaten or been made to partake of the tree of Life? What sustains it?

We need to see it for what it is.

it was not a parable

God said do not do this, or you will die

they did that, and they died. as did all mankind die with them.

Thats just a simple fact of history..

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I can't answer that.

To me, the two trees represent a binary choice: trust one's self or trust God. If a person recognizes that s/he is not perfect, i.e., cannot accurately determine between what is good and what is evil, then s/he must accept their personal weakness and be saved by dying to her/his self and being "resurrected" into the living Christ.

I can see your point of accepting one’s own weakness and to be saved by the dying of self; made alive unto God by the resurrected Living Christ. But that is what I’m trying to say …if I am apart from the source…the Living God… then there is life…as in no sustaining or continuous of.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I can see your point of accepting one’s own weakness and to be saved by the dying of self; made alive unto God by the resurrected Living Christ. But that is what I’m trying to say …if I am apart from the source…the Living God… then there is life…as in no sustaining or continuous of.

what does dying to self mean as it relates to being born again, or resurrected to life? Just asking. This can mean a few things in my view.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

what does dying to self mean as it relates to being born again, or resurrected to life? Just asking. This can mean a few things in my view.

All I am asking is …if hell is a place of continued torment that never ends or never comes to nothing….then how does it continue when only Christ continues? What happens if man in a state of separation from God reaches out to eat of the tree of Life? Does God allow man to eat of the Tree of Life in a nature that opposes God? Does God want man to continue in this state of separation from God. Another would be we say hell fire is satan …or that is what I’ve been told going to hell to be with the devil…but satan, ministers of satan, and doctrines of devils are cast into it. Does satan cast himself into himself? Does satan, the doctrines of devils, falsehood continue by casting itself (torment) into itself (torment)to burn never ending, and forever? All questions I have. I’m not going to debate or argue with you about it. Just sharing where others may have the same questions. You can consider it, or be resolved. That isn’t what this is for, but thought on how does never ending torment continue without eating of the tree of Life that gives the power to continue? That is all. How can hell endure apart from the tree which gives the power of Life? That is like saying if I eat of a falsehood that promises never-ending life but has no life in it…how will it give continuous to anything? Being apart from the very source of Life Himself?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

All I am asking is …if hell is a place of continued torment that never ends or never comes to nothing….then how does it continue when only Christ continues?

Because, while we are not eternal beings, we have a begining. We are created with a soul that will never cease to exist.

What happens if man in a state of separation from God reaches out to eat of the tree of Life?

If he reaches out in faith through repentance. Then he will be made alive, and he will never perish. His sins are forgiven based on that cross. And he is justified forever.

Does God allow man to eat of the Tree of Life in a nature that opposes God?

We all appose God. We are all his enemy, thats why we are dead to begin with. It is God who restores our relationship wiht him when we become poor in spirit.. or bankrupt. Like the tax collector did.

Does God want man to continue in this state of separation from God. Another would be we say hell fire is satan …or that is what I’ve been told going to hell to be with the devil…but satan, ministers of satan, and doctrines of devils are cast into it. Does satan cast himself into himself? Does satan, the doctrines of devils, falsehood continue by casting itself (torment) into itself (torment)to burn never ending, and forever? All questions I have. I’m not going to debate or argue with you about it. Just sharing where others may have the same questions. You can consider it, or be resolved. That isn’t what this is for, but thought on how does never ending torment continue without eating of the tree of Life that gives the power to continue? That is all. How can hell endure apart from the tree which gives the power of Life? That is like saying if I eat of a falsehood that promises never-ending life but has no life in it…how will it give continuous to anything? Being apart from the very source of Life Himself?

Hell was not created for man, it was created for satan and his angels.

However. For those who remain in adam, or of this world. They will suffer the same fate as satan, eternal seperation from God.. which is all hell is..

 

[MatthewG]

Beautiful read @VictoryinJesus and insight came.

You wanna see something else which is also beautiful?

Revelation 21 and 22 written by John the beloved is a direct sequencing of restoring what was lost in the beginning of Genesis, which Moses had written.

And if you look at Revelation 20; and 22 are completely new scope.

I believe people are separated, because of non-faith, outside of the kingdom just says it says in that letter, and the gates never close, and those who are inside of the kingdom are those who had faith.

I wonder if there’s work for us to do inside of the kingdom who are believers who wanna help those outside in darkness?

It gives us something to do at least for God out of love for him, and others still even in the afterlife.

That’s why I look at the lake of fire is something of purpose that can be able to humble a person in learning about Christ by going through the fire that is probably protruding from God because God is a consuming fire and he’s able to burn away the darkness and keep was left. That may be good.

That’s good at least being the willingness to come forward and be honest to find the truth in that fire, by dying to oneself. And perhaps they’re able to go into the kingdom I really really don’t know but it’s something I hope.

Despite all the people who say no, no no.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That’s why I look at the lake of fire is something of purpose that can be able to humble a person in learning about Christ by going through the fire that is probably protruding from God because God is a consuming fire and he’s able to burn away the darkness and keep was left. That may be good.

That’s good at least being the willingness to come forward and be honest to find the truth in that fire, by dying to oneself. And perhaps they’re able to go into the kingdom I really really don’t know but it’s something I hope.

Agree about the lake of fire. Others may not agree but i still see it connected to the furnace in the Old Testament where the men were seen unbound (untied)and free, walking in the fire. You mentioned "able to humble a person in learning about Christ going through the fire" Can see this too in those in the fire being set free from bondage and walking...what else beside to be of "I am lowly and of a humble Spirit" "take My Yoke upon you, My Spirit, Learn of Me." It Sounds to me like what you speak of as having purpose in "learn of Me." Personally, I don't think God does anything without great purpose.

Someone once told me "You do realize ...it is the fearful that get cast first into the lake of fire. I don't know if the fearful are first to go in or just listed as first. But being fearful I thought... oh wow my struggle (fearful) is the first to be cast into the fire. It must be really bad, if it goes in first. But then I ask, what fearful goes into the fire to be destroyed? is it the Fearful of God that is cast in? or the fearful of what men can do to the body that is the first "fearful" to be cast into the lake of fire? I think it is the fearful of what men can do to the body that is cast in. The fearful of every false thing instead putting it above the Fear of God. If that is the "fearful" that's cast into the all-consuming fire, then I see that as removal (destruction) of bondage that binds. hopeful. I will say if it is the first to be cast in is the fearful…it kind of makes sense the fear of what men can do to the body is the first cast into the fire since the Fear of God is the beginning of the wisdom that comes from above and not of men.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We need to see it for what it is.

it was not a parable

God said do not do this, or you will die

they did that, and they died. as did all mankind die with them.

Thats just a simple fact of history..

You miss understood. I wasn’t suggesting Adam and Eve is a parable but that they saw they were unclothed and (Imo) you can’t say a parable didn’t begin with an animal slain to cover their nakedness. Or concerning fig leaves from a fig tree. When I say parable I mean a teaching that wasn’t plain to them…but yet today on this side of it is repeated how this slaying was foreshadowing Christ. A parable? “You must eat My flesh and drink My blood”…why do you speak in parables? Same as Isaac placed on the altar to be sacrificed. All those things I consider parables that take place and we discuss what they mean or meant. There being Obscure in plain sight. job speaks in parables too. You take it to mean I’m saying none of it happened or that I’m saying there isn’t any legitimacy to it. I was only considering that …although their eyes were opened that (to me) doesn’t mean they were made unblind… but instead they loss sight of something greater at the same time as “their eyes were opened” …yet He (the Father) is no longer plainly seen; even with open eyes. (Or that is my opinion.) mostly because I trip over “their eyes were opened” asking if this is the same as when Christ came to open the eyes of the blind? I don’t think so. But instead Christ opening the eyes of the blind, is to see what sin shut the eyes to?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

eternal seperation from God

I get this is your perspective “eternal separation from God.”
To me I don’t see this in that man was cast out so that man would not and could not reach out his hand and take to eat of the tree of Life and live in forever or eternal separation from God. You can’t eat of Christ and live in eternal separation from God. but we say torment is eternal. I’m so confused because it is whatever to make a theology work. I get “we are eternal beings” apart from Christ. That being the explanation. To me …none of that makes sense but is full of holes if I’m being honest.

I get you said you don’t believe that is why God didn’t want man to eat of the tree of life. But you don’t know why. You can only speculate as much as I can speculate. To me it fits more with God desires Mercy “don’t let him eat” that God cast man out, desiring none perish but all come to Life…to remove man from eating and remaining in an eternal separation from God. And with Christ being a tree that gives (bears forth)Life and bears the fruit of the Tree of Life: long-suffering, patience, Hope, joy, peace, brotherly-kindness and Charity …this Tree of Lifes’ purpose was told as “I come not to destroy but to save.” But men say no it is inconceivable that God banished man from the way to the tree of LIFE so man would not and could not live and continue on, in a never-ending separation from God. Why is that so inconceivable? that God would desire not eternal torment (without end) but instead Mercy(without end)? That is the real question?

 

[quietthinker]

All I am asking is …if hell is a place of continued torment that never ends or never comes to nothing….then how does it continue when only Christ continues? What happens if man in a state of separation from God reaches out to eat of the tree of Life? Does God allow man to eat of the Tree of Life in a nature that opposes God? Does God want man to continue in this state of separation from God. Another would be we say hell fire is satan …or that is what I’ve been told going to hell to be with the devil…but satan, ministers of satan, and doctrines of devils are cast into it. Does satan cast himself into himself? Does satan, the doctrines of devils, falsehood continue by casting itself (torment) into itself (torment)to burn never ending, and forever? All questions I have. I’m not going to debate or argue with you about it. Just sharing where others may have the same questions. You can consider it, or be resolved. That isn’t what this is for, but thought on how does never ending torment continue without eating of the tree of Life that gives the power to continue? That is all. How can hell endure apart from the tree which gives the power of Life? That is like saying if I eat of a falsehood that promises never-ending life but has no life in it…how will it give continuous to anything? Being apart from the very source of Life Himself?

You're doing fine ViJ.
The theory that the wicked live forever in burning torment doesn't add up. You have illustrated it well.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You miss understood. I wasn’t suggesting Adam and Eve is a parable but that they saw they were unclothed and (Imo) you can’t say a parable didn’t begin with an animal slain to cover their nakedness. Or concerning fig leaves from a fig tree. When I say parable I mean a teaching that wasn’t plain to them…but yet today on this side of it is repeated how this slaying was foreshadowing Christ. A parable? “You must eat My flesh and drink My blood”…why do you speak in parables? Same as Isaac placed on the altar to be sacrificed. All those things I consider parables that take place and we discuss what they mean or meant. There being Obscure in plain sight. job speaks in parables too. You take it to mean I’m saying none of it happened or that I’m saying there isn’t any legitimacy to it. I was only considering that …although their eyes were opened that (to me) doesn’t mean they were made unblind… but instead they loss sight of something greater at the same time as “their eyes were opened” …yet He (the Father) is no longer plainly seen; even with open eyes. (Or that is my opinion.) mostly because I trip over “their eyes were opened” asking if this is the same as when Christ came to open the eyes of the blind? I don’t think so. But instead Christ opening the eyes of the blind, is to see what sin shut the eyes to?

What I meant was God told adam do not eat. And they ate. When they ate the died.

They were not more enlightened. if anything, they became darkened. their eyes were not open. they were closed. Adam and eve saw their nakedness. because everything about them was laid out before God. and they were no longer perfect. This made them ashamed of who they were..

The animal dieing to cover their nakedness (sin) is a tyoe of Christ. I agree. If our spiritual nakedness is not covered by God (his blood) we are exposed also. and on judgment day, we will reap the reward of our sin. Judgment