Sola Scriptura 2

[farouk]

One does not have to prove sola scripture .

Without scripture ,how do you prove or disprove the traditions of men ?

Americans quote the US Declaration of Independence: "We hold these things to be self-evident."

Much more so Scripture: it truly is self-authenticating, by God's grace.

 

[amigo de christo]

The flood of false teaching is coming from the 40,000 splintered Protestant denominations, sects and cults that are the fruit of the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

The devil loves that doctrine for it divides and divides.

Though the river of false doctrine truly is coming from the protestant realm . THE OCEAN OF IT COMES FROM THE RCC .

 

[robert derrick]

I agree that if doctrines contradict Scripture then they are wrong. But it does not follow that they have to be Scripturally confirmed.

Sola Scriptura contradicts Scripture. I've given many examples (see post #211) which you have failed to address.



Untrue. It is correct to believe Scripture to be authoritative (true and reliable) - if properly interpreted. but also reject Sola Scriptura



People who believe in the false teaching of Sola Scriptura which contradicts Scripture itself are honoring Scripture with their lips, while practising traditions contrary to Scripture with their lives.

Likewise, they speak the name of Jesus with their lips only, while idolizing their own selves with a tradition of men that rejects Scripture of God.

I agree that if doctrines contradict Scripture then they are wrong. But it does not follow that they have to be Scripturally confirmed.

Fair enough. You reject anything that plainly contradicts Scripture; however, that is not the real subtlety of the serpent.

Only the most foolish would agree nudist colonies for Christians is good with God, because it plainly contradicts the scripture to be clothed in public. (1 Tim 2:9)

The real snare of the devil is in preaching traditions of men for doctrine of God (), which occurs when traditions of men are treated equally with Scripture.

Those traditions falsely taught for words of God are them that are not confirmed as true of God by Scripture.

The transgression of Adam was preceding by the first outside tradition being treated equally with Scripture of God:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

God did not say, neither shall ye touch it.

It isn't a contradiction of Scripture, but it is a word of rule and tradition spoken by man, but not confirmed by God. And the serpent used the opportunity of such intermixing man's words with God's Scripture, to lure the deceived woman into transgression: Eating the fruit.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is the outside source for outside traditions, which become evil, when preached equally as the good tradition and Word of God in Scripture.

When that evil fruit, that is lying about the truth of God, is eaten and consumed into the heart, then the eater thereof becomes a deceived idolator, believing and obeying words of men equal to words of God, that are written in Scripture only.

If you believe and practice traditions spoken by men, that Scripture does not confirm and agree with, then you are eating of the fruit that God has commanded us not to eat, and like Adam, you are chased off from eating of the fruit of the tree of Life.

God does not have two differing sources, nor is He the God of two masters to hear, believe, and serve.

 

[robert derrick]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Scripture is given by God for doctrine of God and instruction in the righteousness of God.

Men and women of God are made by Scripture. Doing good works of God are done by Scripture.

Men can have all the outside traditions they wish, but they are not given by God for teaching His doctrine, making His people, and doing His good works.

And those that make outside traditions to be truth of God, are making their own righteousness, that is without Scripture, nor faith in God:

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Those of outside traditions are ignorant of God's righteousness, because they do not submit themselves to the righteousness of God, that is given by Scripture.

 

[Mungo]

I agree that if doctrines contradict Scripture then they are wrong. But it does not follow that they have to be Scripturally confirmed.

Fair enough. You reject anything that plainly contradicts Scripture; however, that is not the real subtlety of the serpent.

Only the most foolish would agree nudist colonies for Christians is good with God, because it plainly contradicts the scripture to be clothed in public. (1 Tim 2:9)

The real snare of the devil is in preaching traditions of men for doctrine of God (), which occurs when traditions of men are treated equally with Scripture.

Those traditions falsely taught for words of God are them that are not confirmed as true of God by Scripture.

The transgression of Adam was preceding by the first outside tradition being treated equally with Scripture of God:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

God did not say, neither shall ye touch it.

It isn't a contradiction of Scripture, but it is a word of rule and tradition spoken by man, but not confirmed by God. And the serpent used the opportunity of such intermixing man's words with God's Scripture, to lure the deceived woman into transgression: Eating the fruit.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is the outside source for outside traditions, which become evil, when preached equally as the good tradition and Word of God in Scripture.

When that evil fruit, that is lying about the truth of God, is eaten and consumed into the heart, then the eater thereof becomes a deceived idolator, believing and obeying words of men equal to words of God, that are written in Scripture only.

If you believe and practice traditions spoken by men, that Scripture does not confirm and agree with, then you are eating of the fruit that God has commanded us not to eat, and like Adam, you are chased off from eating of the fruit of the tree of Life.

God does not have two differing sources, nor is He the God of two masters to hear, believe, and serve.

Your whole rant is about "traditions of men", but Sacred Tradition is not a "tradition of men" so you have been wasting your time - unless you apply it to that real "tradition of men" called Sola Scriptura. Then you might learn something.

 

[Mungo]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Scripture is given by God for doctrine of God and instruction in the righteousness of God.

Men and women of God are made by Scripture. Doing good works of God are done by Scripture.

Men can have all the outside traditions they wish, but they are not given by God for teaching His doctrine, making His people, and doing His good works.

And those that make outside traditions to be truth of God, are making their own righteousness, that is without Scripture, nor faith in God:

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Those of outside traditions are ignorant of God's righteousness, because they do not submit themselves to the righteousness of God, that is given by Scripture.

Sacred Tradition is not an "outside tradition". It is God given so your rant is a waste of your time.

I think you must have missed these Scriptures because you haven't addressed them
Jn 21:25 "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written"

2 Thess 2:15 "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

1 Cor 11:34 "if any one is hungry, let him eat at home—lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come."

2 Tim 2:2 "and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. "

2 Jn 1:12 "Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete."

 

[Mungo]

Americans quote the US Declaration of Independence: "We hold these things to be self-evident."

Much more so Scripture: it truly is self-authenticating, by God's grace.

It's a great cop out that isn't it. Having a belief that has not basis so claim it is self evident.

 

[farouk]

It's a great cop out that isn't it. Having a belief that has not basis so claim it is self evident.

What you imply is that the word of man (religious official, scientist, etc.) is supposedly above the Word of God.

 

[Mungo]

@robert derrick

Tell me from whence do we know which writings are considered Scripture.
Does Scripture contain a list of them?
or
Are they a "tradition of men"?

 

[Mungo]

What you imply is that the word of man (religious official, scientist, etc.) is supposedly above the Word of God.

Not at all.
It's the claimants of Sola Scriptura that put the word of man above the Word of God.
And because they can't prove it they then try to claim it's "self evident"

 

[Curtis]

The claim that the Roman Catholic Church can change or invent new doctrine, is not so.

Actually it is so, and they do, because they can. For a season.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child...And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood...And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The devil absolutely hates it, when a believer of Jesus refuses to even hear His made up inventions of traditions outside of Scripture, and so he finds no place in heaven to speak from, and his 'Sacred' speakers are rejected for the idol-makers they are.

He casts a flood of accusation by those traditions after the believers of Jesus and His Word only, to hopefully get them likewise carried away with them that reject Scripture only.

The Scriptures of the God of all the earth help us against such a flood of false teaching and teachers and followers, by swallowing them all up as so much debris filled and darkened waters.

Even as the earth itself swallowed up Korah and his followers, that declared themselves and their own 'Sacred' words were holy too. (Num 16:3)

Those who reject Sola Scriptura are Korahites to the core.

That’s the most preposterous interpretation of Revelation 12 I’ve ever heard.

The woman is Israel. We know this because having the son, moon, and stars above her head is symbolic of Israel in the Old Testament. The messiah Jesus came out of Israel.

Israel flees into the desert in verse 6, for exactly 1,203 days - which is 3.5 years - and Israel is heeding Jesus warning in Matthew 24 to flee Judea when the mid tribulation event of the son of perdition/abomination of desolation occurs, which is exactly half way into the 7 year tribulation period, and thus they flee into the desert for the last 3.5 years of it.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what you claim, and the time span of the events in Revelation 12 is limited to only 1,203 days, proving how ludicrous it is to attempt to make it about sola scriptura.

I’d say close but no cigar, but it’s not even remotely close.

Maranatha

 

[Curtis]

It is upon this completely bogus view of Peter somehow being the supreme apostle above all apostles, as the person upon whom Christ would build His church, that they then made up an even grosser doctrine of a 'successor' of Peter on earth, who is therefore now the 'rock' that Christ builds His church, so that the incarnate Peter rules over all as Head of the church.

Exactly.

 

[robert derrick]

Your whole rant is about "traditions of men", but Sacred Tradition is not a "tradition of men" so you have been wasting your time - unless you apply it to that real "tradition of men" called Sola Scriptura. Then you might learn something.

Pardon me. My bad.

Any 'Sacred Tradition' of men that agree not with Scripture are 'Sacred' to men, but not holy to God.

Unless, you mean the Sacred tradition of God found in the Scripture.

Otherwise, you would be talking of three kinds of traditions:
1. traditions of men in pagan religions.
2. Sacred traditions of men in false religion called Christian.
3. The tradition of God given by holy Scriptures.

In any case, the subtlety of the devil is by traditions taught for doctrine of God, that do not contradict Scripture, but do not agree with Scripture, and so they are the most dangerous of all to the believers of God according to the Scriptures.

 

[robert derrick]

That’s the most preposterous interpretation of Revelation 12 I’ve ever heard.

The woman is Israel. We know this because having the son, moon, and stars above her head is symbolic of Israel in the Old Testament. The messiah Jesus came out of Israel.

Israel flees into the desert in verse 6, for exactly 1,203 days - which is 3.5 years - and Israel is heeding Jesus warning in Matthew 24 to flee Judea when the mid tribulation event of the son of perdition/abomination of desolation occurs, which is exactly half way into the 7 year tribulation period, and thus they flee into the desert for the last 3.5 years of it.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what you claim, and the time span of the events in Revelation 12 is limited to only 1,203 days, proving how ludicrous it is to attempt to make it about sola scriptura.

I’d say close but no cigar, but it’s not even remotely close.

Maranatha

That’s the most preposterous interpretation of Revelation 12 I’ve ever heard.

Thank you. I do like being original. I'll take your stunned brain as a compliment.

If I choose to glean a ministerial application of Revelation, that fits with the situation at hand, then I do so.

You choose to ignore it. God ahead, and stick to your standard interpretations of prophecy, that makes it useless for you to study, since it would have absolutely nothing to do with you as a Christian today. You only study it out of idle curiosity and intellectual exercise.

I study all Scripture for ministerial benefit to me in my walk with Christ.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

And so in the sense I gave, it certainly painted an appropriate ministerial picture of them persecuted for Sola Scriptura, by a religion who's authority was the dragon, and was used to teach for doctrine of God the traditions of men.

The tradition-holding Jews did so with the Christians of the apostles, and the tradition-holing Catholics did so with the Christians of Sola Scriptura.

And before the Lord comes to meet His elect in the air, there may well be another such religion rising up to do the same.

 

[robert derrick]

@robert derrick

Tell me from whence do we know which writings are considered Scripture.
Does Scripture contain a list of them?
or
Are they a "tradition of men"?

Tell me from whence do we know which writings are considered Scripture.

I know from the Bible I read exactly what is Scripture. All of it.

You however are left in the darkened land of doubt and uncertainty and have need of other outside things to impress you.

And your demand for original manuscripts before you would believe, is the proof of your walk by sight and not by faith, which is a kind of relic worship.

 

[robert derrick]

Sacred Tradition is not an "outside tradition". It is God given so your rant is a waste of your time.

I think you must have missed these Scriptures because you haven't addressed them
Jn 21:25 "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written"

2 Thess 2:15 "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

1 Cor 11:34 "if any one is hungry, let him eat at home—lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come."

2 Tim 2:2 "and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. "

2 Jn 1:12 "Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete."

Sacred Tradition is not an "outside tradition".

All tradition preached for truth of God, that does not agree with Scripture, is outside tradition made by outside sources that you love so much.

And you calling them 'Sacred' doesn't make them any more true nor holy, but only idolized by you and your fellow worshippers of false 'sacred' traditions.

Now, if these 'Sacred' traditions you speak of are indeed in agreement with Scripture, then they are not only Sacred, but also true and holy and of God.

 

[Mungo]

Pardon me. My bad.

Any 'Sacred Tradition' of men that agree not with Scripture are 'Sacred' to men, but not holy to God.

Unless, you mean the Sacred tradition of God found in the Scripture.

Otherwise, you would be talking of three kinds of traditions:
1. traditions of men in pagan religions.
2. Sacred traditions of men in false religion called Christian.
3. The tradition of God given by holy Scriptures.

In any case, the subtlety of the devil is by traditions taught for doctrine of God, that do not contradict Scripture, but do not agree with Scripture, and so they are the most dangerous of all to the believers of God according to the Scriptures.

Sacred Tradition is of God not of men so your whole post is error.

 

[Mungo]

Tell me from whence do we know which writings are considered Scripture.

I know from the Bible I read exactly what is Scripture. All of it.

You however are left in the darkened land of doubt and uncertainty and have need of other outside things to impress you.

And your demand for original manuscripts before you would believe, is the proof of your walk by sight and not by faith, which is a kind of relic worship.

Now you are getting even more ridiculous. The Bible you have was put together by men. It was translated into English by men.

Of the New Testament there was much discussion in the early Church about which writing were scripture. The final decision was not made until the end of the 4th century - by men.

Where does Scripture list what writings are Scripture?

 

[Mungo]

Sacred Tradition is not an "outside tradition".

All tradition preached for truth of God, that does not agree with Scripture, is outside tradition made by outside sources that you love so much.

And you calling them 'Sacred' doesn't make them any more true nor holy, but only idolized by you and your fellow worshippers of false 'sacred' traditions.

Now, if these 'Sacred' traditions you speak of are indeed in agreement with Scripture, then they are not only Sacred, but also true and holy and of God.

Sacred Tradition does not conflict with Sacred Scripture. It cannot since it comes from the same source - God

 

[Wrangler]

Sacred Tradition does not conflict with Sacred Scripture.

LOL, If this were true there would be no Great Schism and no Reformation movement.