Sola Scriptura, again

[goldy]

This will probably ruffle some feathers on here. But hey, that's why everyone on here loves me, rightI hear a whole lot of people on here giving me this sort of advice: "Goldy, you don't need the Catholic Church telling you what to do. Just read God's Word." Well personally, I read from the Word of God everyday along with saying other prayers. The RCC has daily readings and Sunday readings for everyday of the year. These are the exact same passages that are read at every single Catholic mass on the planet. I always find it interesting how Catholics are accused of having teachings that are un-biblical when the bible is a Catholic book!! A little history lesson, and I'm quoting an esteemed Catholic author: The Bible didn't just drop down from Heaven one fine day. The Bible was written by people just like us with some form of primitive inks and pens. 1500 years elapsed between the writing of the Book of Genesis and the writing of the Book of Revelation. The Bible was not originally written in English, needless to say. It is also critically important that we remember that the Bible, as we have it now, wasn't printed in any language at all until almost 1500 years after the Birth of Christ. For almost one and a half millennia after the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, the only books that existed were hand-written. What type of perspective does that place on the modern Protestant-Evangelical idea that every person must carry around a Bible? (Rediscovering Catholicism, Kelly)The crux of every biblical argument between Catholic and non-Catholic Christians goes directly to interpretation. Folks, we need an Authority to interpret Sacred Scripture. If you feel you should be able to interpret Scripture any way you want, you are in essence making yourself God, your own authority. The Word of God has the power to transform lives, but it is NOT MEANT TO BE ABUSED AND INTERPRETED ANY WAY WE WOULD LIKE. Please keep this in mind when you read from the Word of God.

 

[Tyrel]

I agree with most of your post, but I'd like to stress that people doing everything they can to read and understand the scriptures for themselves does not mean they are making themselves God, anymore than the Catholic Church acting as a holy office presumes to make itself God. They are simply making themselves bishops, saints, clergy. I don't think it's a necessarily bad thing to interpret the Bible for yourself though. Read through it and find what you think it means, discuss it, and ultimately thirst for the wisdom of the wise. The wise have insight, and thus are made clergy.Perhaps it's more fair to say that we would be at a loss without those who have studied these things and have a great understanding. However, even every Catholic is commanded to search the scriptures for themselves." The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ." ~Catechism 133The only difference, here, between the Catholic and the protestant, is that when a Catholic decides to come against the authority's interpretation, they go off and make themselves cults and get excommunicated. When Protestants do it, they stop meeting in the same place with the same people, and just look through a catalogue to see who already shares their heresy.. er.. I mean.. view..

 

[Peacebewithyou]

(Tyrel;26813)
When Protestants do it, they stop meeting in the same place with the same people, and just look through a catalogue to see who already shares their heresy.. er.. I mean.. view..

*makes me giggle*

 

[Peacebewithyou]

Imagine how it would have gone here in the United States if the writers of the Constitution just handed out copies to every American and said, "Ok, now figure out for yourselves what this means. Imagine if we all just had a great big book of laws and each of us were told that we should personally interpret it ourselves. What a mess that would be. And then what happens when you read the law one way and your neighbor reads it to mean something totally different? Who decides who's right? You can both stand there all day long with your finger on the "law" but unless some authority has been established to interpret the law - you'll get nowhere. It's the same with the Bible. Jesus did not pass out bibles. He established a Church. His Church is His Authority. What I will never understand is if you don't believe that Jesus established an authority - WHY in the world would you trust the Bible? Of all the hundreds & hundreds of writings - WHY put your faith in those 66 books? Who do you think decided only those writings should be cannonized?

 

[goldy]

(Peacebewithyou;26821)
Imagine how it would have gone here in the United States if the writers of the Constitution just handed out copies to every American and said, "Ok, now figure out for yourselves what this means. Imagine if we all just had a great big book of laws and each of us were told that we should personally interpret it ourselves. What a mess that would be. And then what happens when you read the law one way and your neighbor reads it to mean something totally different? Who decides who's right? You can both stand there all day long with your finger on the "law" but unless some authority has been established to interpret the law - you'll get nowhere. It's the same with the Bible. Jesus did not pass out bibles. He established a Church. His Church is His Authority. What I will never understand is if you don't believe that Jesus established an authority - WHY in the world would you trust the Bible? Of all the hundreds & hundreds of writings - WHY put your faith in those 66 books? Who do you think decided only those writings should be cannonized?
True that sister, true that. BTW, I sent you a PM. Did you get it?Keeping on topic here.......can anyone on here point me to the Bible verse where it says that the Bible and the Bible alone is the sole rule of authority for Christians, the pillar and foundation of truth?

 

[Tyrel]

(Peacebewithyou;26821)
Imagine how it would have gone here in the United States if the writers of the Constitution just handed out copies to every American and said, "Ok, now figure out for yourselves what this means. Imagine if we all just had a great big book of laws and each of us were told that we should personally interpret it ourselves. What a mess that would be. And then what happens when you read the law one way and your neighbor reads it to mean something totally different? Who decides who's right? You can both stand there all day long with your finger on the "law" but unless some authority has been established to interpret the law - you'll get nowhere. It's the same with the Bible. Jesus did not pass out bibles. He established a Church. His Church is His Authority. What I will never understand is if you don't believe that Jesus established an authority - WHY in the world would you trust the Bible? Of all the hundreds & hundreds of writings - WHY put your faith in those 66 books? Who do you think decided only those writings should be cannonized?
I agree wholeheartedly.. almost.In defense of the other side, however, I would offer that when the authority seems clearly wrong, whether with, or against, convention, it should be opposed. The reason we generally leave these things in the hands of those who have spent their lives training to take on the role, is because we trust that, after a sufficient amount of training, they are well equipped...Two days ago one of my close Catholic friends went to church in the morning, as he does nearly every day, and went to confession. A guest priest from Ireland who is down here in Montreal for about a year, was the one he did confession to. The priest, upon hearing about his great knowledge of the Catechism, which he reads and knows quite well, and his great love of the Catholic Fathers, {perhaps most especially Aquinas and Augustine}, and upon hearing about how he defends the faith, and the church apologetically {and he's quite good (on his way towards becoming a Jesuit, but changed his course recently to become a dominican}, the Priest put him on penance, and said that he needed to be more balanced and not such an extremist about faith. He proudly looked down on my friend and told him how Catholics don't have to read the Catechism or the Church fathers. When my friend defended himself biblically, the priest suggested again and again that he needs to see a psychologist.This is an example of an abuse of authority. The problem is, what happens when you think the RCC as a whole needs to be rebuked? Well, then you get a Martin Luther. Now, like it or not, I still think that what Martin Luther did was noble. Even the current Pope agrees that the Church needed to better be able to answer to objections, and fix itself where it was lacking. What Martin Luther is remembered for starting, was perhaps a really good thing, in essence. The result is unfortunate, and unity will be hard won now. However, I still think he did it for the right reasons. I also think that submitting to an authority, when it goes against the conscience to do so, is not piety.I disagree with much of the Catholic Doctrine. It seems to me to go against reason and evidence. However, I am well informed enough to respect it. Just the same, I would not submit my beliefs to an authority, only my allegiance, perhaps, as a point of principle. My beliefs are subject to my study, not somebody else's half a world away. Regardless of how wise they may be, I will consider them and perhaps even esteem them, but I will not blindly accept what they say. I will consider it.

 

[Christina]

Its this attitude that has brought all the confusion, an divisions in Christianity why don't you guys tell us which men we should listen to ? Would it be the Pope,would it be perhaps the Mormons, Or should we all talk the babble of the Pentecostals, Or maybe we should all go to church on Saturdays and not eat meat, as the Seventh Day Adventist Do, Or be like the Jehovah Witness and not celebrate Holidays and all call Jesus Jehovah, Why stop there if men are going to define Gods Word instead of God lets go ahead and include Islam and Buddhists after all they say Christ was a prophet and they have some wise sayings? Heck lets lets just all pick a separate man we like and follow his ideasFunny all you complainers about following strictly Gods Word of course want to Claim your Religion as the right way to interpret things whether it goes against God or not.Funny how your ideas only apply when you are talking about the men you choose to follow.

 

[Peacebewithyou]

(kriss;26831)
Its this attitude that has brought all the confusion, an divisions in Christianity why don't you guys tell us which men we should listen to ? Would it be the Pope,would it be perhaps the Mormons, Or should we all talk the babble of the Pentecostals, Or maybe we should all go to church on Saturdays and not eat meat, as the Seventh Day Adventist Do, Or be like the Jehovah Witness and not celebrate Holidays and all call Jesus Jehovah, Why stop there if men are going to define Gods Word instead of God lets go ahead and include Islam and Buddhists after all they say Christ was a prophet and they have some wise sayings? Heck lets lets just all pick a separate man we like and follow his ideasFunny all you complainers about following strictly Gods Word of course want to Claim your Religion as the right way to interpret things whether it goes against God or not.Funny how your ideas only apply when you are talking about the men you choose to follow.
Yep. Totally fair argument - and something that drove me INSANE when I first became a Christian. Who is right about God? Is it the Baptists? Methodists? Lutherans? Pentecostals? Church of Christ? If are all inspired by the Holy Spirit why do they disagree? Is the Holy Spirit giving different messages? (of course not) And yet I was convinced that Jesus DID establish a church. I was certain because of these verses: 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So I decided I was going to go back to the begining - study the Early Church 100, 200, 500 years after Christ. What did it look like? What were their beliefs? At the time the Bible was cannonized, if God could inspire them to get that right, no doubt He was using them to keep the faith on the right course, and to keep heresy out. Remember, for at least 1400 years, the vast majority couldn't read and didn't own Bibles. God HAD to use men to teach the people. They couldn't just pick up a Bible & be guided. So what did those men believe to be true? That "Church" had to be Christ's. So, does the Mormon Church look anything like the Early Church? Nope - not even close - Joseph Smith made up their beliefs. How 'bout the Jehovah's Witnesses? Nope. They didn't even exist until Charles T. Russell invented them & then rewrote the Bible to support his views. And I could go right on down the line - this group broke from that group - and that group broke from this group etc. etc. The only Church that can trace it's beliefs to the Early Church is the Catholic Church. It became so very obvious. The Church that Jesus refered to "upon this rock I will build my Church..." WAS the Catholic Church. All other groups could trace themselves back to the Catholic Church.. and all abandoned & picked up new beliefs in the process.

 

[Peacebewithyou]

(kriss;26831)
Funny all you complainers about following strictly Gods Word of course want to Claim your Religion as the right way to interpret things whether it goes against God or not..
Kriss,The Catholic Church does not "go against God." It may go against your personal interpretation of God, but with all due respect, that is not the same thing.

 

[Christina]

All religions make the same claim so that is a non argument. All we claim is that the Word of God is not any religion it is a way of life that all Gods children should follow if you can do that and call yourself a religous title also fine but you cant claim a man or mens ideas take persedent over Gods Word and you can only follow it if you are a catholic or any other religion

 

[Peacebewithyou]

(kriss;26844)
All religions make the same claim so that is a non argument. All we claim is that Word of God is not any religion it is a way of life that all Gods children should follow if you can do that and call yourself a religous title also fine but you cant claim a man or mens ideas take persedent over Gods Word and you can only follow it if you are a catholic or any other religion
But what happens when one of God's children says "God is NOT a Trinity because of verses A,B,C & D" and God's other child says, "Is too.. because of verses E,F,G, & H." Who is right? How do we know?

 

[Christina]

never said we were not to have teachers but a gifted teacher is a gift given by God it is not given to a religion its a personal gift. and to that teacher is given a eyes to see ears to hear. the most important teacher we have is the scripture. God doesnt expect us to be perfect he expects us to follow HIS laws and study HIS Word we get no credit for following a religious tradition. This is what the Jews did they didnt want to give up their religous traditions for Christ.And God divorced them

 

[Peacebewithyou]

(kriss;26848)
never said we were not to have teachers but a gifted teacher is a gift given by God it is not given to a religion its a personal gift. and to that teacher is given a eyes to see ears to hear. the most important teacher we have is the scripture. God doesnt expect us to be perfect he expects us to follow HIS laws and study HIS Word we get no credit for following a religious tradition. This is what the Jews did they didnt want to give up their religous traditions for Christ.And God divorced them
So God must give the gift of teaching to all Christian religions, rather than limiting it to one particular group, correct? Then why don't the "teachers" that have eyes to see and ears to hear agree? Pick a Chrisitan subject and you'll hear each teacher's own interpretation of truth. This forum is an excellent example of that. I believe that the typical poster on this forum is someone who has a relationship with Christ, studies His word, and believes he is guided by the Holy Spirit - yet.. there is MUCH disagreement: speaking in tongues, tribulation, Adam & Eve and their offspring, even the very nature of God - and the most ridiculous.. whether he "chatted." Eveyone takes sides & uses scripture - but we're left with confusion. Is that the way God intended his message to be spread throughout the world? His children fighting among themselves and then spreading their own personal interpretations of Him??? That makes no sense. If there wasn't a "Church" authority back in the 3rd century to say to the Gnostics - hey.. you guys are heretics.. you've got it all wrong... or to those that believed Jesus was fully man but not fully God - Heretics! Who knows what we would've ended up with today? That same "authority" that everyone is willing to dismiss is the same authority that cannoized the Bible. If you trust them to to that, why not trust the rest of their beliefs? God doesn't change. He's the same yesterday, today, tomorrow. If we assume his method he wants His children to use is Bible alone, why didn't he hand out Bibles? Why didn't the individual people decide for themselves which books belonged in the Bible? If God wants us to interpret the Word ourselves, shouldn't we also be able to decide which books make up the Word?

 

[For Life]

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.Scripture doesn't say that none come to the Father but by the Church. If your church helps you get to Jesus then that is great. Whether it be Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist or whatever. But I haven't read anywhere in the bible where it says it is mandatory that you go to a church and believe everything they preach. I personally don't like men (priests and popes) getting between me and a relationship with the Lord. But I can also see how some can learn from this valuable lessons such as humility, obedience, and servitude one to another. To argue which is the true church I think is futile. It's the message that really matters.

 

[Christina]

Thats why God says Amos 8:11 the famine of the End times will be for the true Word of God because their are few good teachers in the End times they have all sold out to the traditions of Men Religion and church has become a business first and foremostWhy do you think Jesus turned over the Money tables ? Same thing.The word Prophecy means to teach to teach what ? a truth. What is the sign of a true prophet (teacher) they are 100% right. That pretty much tells you how many true teachers we have. None are 100% right. Now that doesn't mean some are not more right than others. But there is Only one source we can go to in which to weigh how right a teacher is and that source is Gods Word. The more you are in line with the Word the more on the right side you are. God says you should learn his Word precept upon precept it is taught in layers it never stops growing and teaching. Most churches established some core believes then as they learned as time changed rather than teach these new things they tried to twist the scripture to fit their ideas, or they added more books Do you not have a catholic bible that is different than the original KJV? Why is this. Or church's flat deny Gods Word means what it says whatever their reasons after years there is less of God and more of men in most churches. We say lets go back to the Word true we may not all agree completelybut in the years I have been doing this the major disagreements are always not with what God says its lining up Gods Word with the teaching of menExample: 1cor 14:28 says very clear tongues should never be spoken in church unless there is an interpreter. Yet every pentecostal church in the World has there own reason why this does not apply to them. Now I ask you do you have to be a genies to understand what God says? No you just have to be willing to give up your mens religions teachings/traditions most will not and continue to hang on to mens words.I could say the same about Mary no scripture in KJ gives Mary any special reverenceabove any other bible hero. But Catholics added Books that were not part of scripture to help support this view. Whether you worship her or not is not my point here its just to show men will go to any lengths to support their view rather than the simplicity of Gods Word and fight tooth and nail to say it is Gods Word.We have the same with Pre-Rapture Doctrine its not in Gods Word but people will look to 1 thess.4 as proof. but they will absolutely refuse to read 2 thess. that says this will not happen until after Antichrist comes. Men say its before So Gods Word is wrongNow I'm not claiming we are 100% right but we are at least listening to the right man God.

 

[Christina]

Some General teachings that are followed by men's Religions that are not in Gods Word or totally misinterpreted.1. Day of worship (or Sabbath) There is no day of worship more right or wrong Christ became our Sabbath(rest)we are to worship him everyday.2. Divorce and remarriage God does not call divorce or remarriage a sin3.tonguesthere is no unknown tongue(babble)There is the cloven tongue of God bestowed once upon the apostles(to date a one time miracle not yet repeated)the tongues in other chapters is merely the gift of speaking/understanding foreign languages4.No other Words or Books can be added or taken awayall other books used in church's are of men not sanctioned by God5.Holidays Christmas, Easter Christ was not born on Dec. 25 he was born in Sept.Easter is never said to be a Holiday we are to celebrate Passover6. Water Baptismit is the Baptism of/by the Holy spirit no water required7.Circumcisionreplaced by circumcision of the heart8.FastingNot required a personal choice9.Dietno foods are forbidden We are saved by grace10.Alcholdrunkenness leads to sin a small amount of wine is BiblicalThere are hundreds of men's traditions in all religions but I was trying to stick to more general things than to single out certain faiths

 

[Peacebewithyou]

(kriss;26867)
Some General teachings that are followed by men's Religions that are not in Gods Word or totally misinterpreted.1. Day of worship (or Sabbath) There is no day of worship more right or wrong Christ became our Sabbath(rest)we are to worship him everyday.2. Divorce and remarriage God does not call divorce or remarriage a sin3.tonguesthere is no unknown tongue(babble)There is the cloven tongue of God bestowed once upon the apostles(to date a one time miracle not yet repeated)the tongues in other chapters is merely the gift of speaking/understanding foreign languages4.No other Words or Books can be added or taken awayall other books used in church's are of men not sanctioned by God5.Holidays Christmas, Easter Christ was not born on Dec. 25 he was born in Sept.Easter is never said to be a Holiday we are to celebrate Passover6. Water Baptismit is the Baptism of/by the Holy spirit no water required7.Circumcisionreplaced by circumcision of the heart8.FastingNot required a personal choice9.Dietno foods are forbidden We are saved by grace10.Alcholdrunkenness leads to sin a small amount of wine is BiblicalThere are hundreds of men's traditions in all religions but I was trying to stick to more general things than to single out certain faiths
Regarding #2 Mal2:16: "For I hate (A)divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel He said that he allowed divorce because of their hard hearts - Mat 19:88He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. and then this in 1 Cor 7: 10But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. I think anytime we go against God, we sin. He said he hates a divorce. He said those with hard hearts divorce. He said that we should not leave our spouse and if we do, we should not remarry.I believe these verses clearly show what God thinks of divorce. Please explain how these verses are misinterpreted.

 

[Peacebewithyou]

(kriss;26867)
Some General teachings that are followed by men's Religions that are not in Gods Word or totally misinterpreted.1. Day of worship (or Sabbath) There is no day of worship more right or wrong Christ became our Sabbath(rest)we are to worship him everyday.2. Divorce and remarriage God does not call divorce or remarriage a sin3.tonguesthere is no unknown tongue(babble)There is the cloven tongue of God bestowed once upon the apostles(to date a one time miracle not yet repeated)the tongues in other chapters is merely the gift of speaking/understanding foreign languages4.No other Words or Books can be added or taken awayall other books used in church's are of men not sanctioned by God5.Holidays Christmas, Easter Christ was not born on Dec. 25 he was born in Sept.Easter is never said to be a Holiday we are to celebrate Passover6. Water Baptismit is the Baptism of/by the Holy spirit no water required7.Circumcisionreplaced by circumcision of the heart8.FastingNot required a personal choice9.Dietno foods are forbidden We are saved by grace10.Alcholdrunkenness leads to sin a small amount of wine is BiblicalThere are hundreds of men's traditions in all religions but I was trying to stick to more general things than to single out certain faiths
#7 - Isn't this more of a personal decision that parents make for their own babies rather than something they believe God instructs?

 

[Peacebewithyou]

(kriss;26867)
Some General teachings that are followed by men's Religions that are not in Gods Word or totally misinterpreted.1. Day of worship (or Sabbath) There is no day of worship more right or wrong Christ became our Sabbath(rest)we are to worship him everyday.2. Divorce and remarriage God does not call divorce or remarriage a sin3.tonguesthere is no unknown tongue(babble)There is the cloven tongue of God bestowed once upon the apostles(to date a one time miracle not yet repeated)the tongues in other chapters is merely the gift of speaking/understanding foreign languages4.No other Words or Books can be added or taken awayall other books used in church's are of men not sanctioned by God5.Holidays Christmas, Easter Christ was not born on Dec. 25 he was born in Sept.Easter is never said to be a Holiday we are to celebrate Passover6. Water Baptismit is the Baptism of/by the Holy spirit no water required7.Circumcisionreplaced by circumcision of the heart8.FastingNot required a personal choice9.Dietno foods are forbidden We are saved by grace10.Alcholdrunkenness leads to sin a small amount of wine is BiblicalThere are hundreds of men's traditions in all religions but I was trying to stick to more general things than to single out certain faiths
#4 - some books are beneficial though. Didn't you start a thread about other books? I would agree that no other books are insprired or without error. #5 - Agreed. Not in the Bible - but anytime Jesus Christ is proclaimed and glorified in the world = a good thing. #6 - Totally disagree with this one. I looked up several scriptures in the - all spoke of being baptized AND THEN receiving the Holy Spirit. If water isn't involved - why do we read this in Acts 8:35Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" 37And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."] 38And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.

 

[Peacebewithyou]

(kriss;26867)
10.Alcholdrunkenness leads to sin a small amount of wine is Biblical
Agreed - although I think a beer now and then is ok too.