Solving the mistery of the trinity.

[Angelina]

Hi denny!

I just recently read a book Called, "Jesus: son of God, clone of God. " by Harry Walther and he suggested that Jesus was really a clone of God the Father. It really hit home with me. The first verse that poped into my mind was when Jesus said if you've sceen me you've sceen the Father. If I was a clone of my dad that is exactly what I would say. And when Jesus said the father in heaven is greater than I am, I beleive he ment the father was greater simply because the father always exsisted yet Jesus was created. What do you all think?

Great post and good theory...lets see how it measures up against the word of God. :huh:

Philippians 2 [NKJV] [sup]5[/sup] Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, [sup]6[/sup] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, [sup]7[/sup] but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. [sup]8[/sup] And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Philippians 2 [Amplified Bible]
[sup] 5[/sup]Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility
[sup]6[/sup]Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
[sup]7[/sup]But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

John 17[NKJV]
Jesus Prays for Himself
[sup]1[/sup] Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, [sup]2[/sup] as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. [sup]3[/sup] And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. [sup]4[/sup] I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. [sup]5[/sup] And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

[sup]6[/sup] “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. [sup]7[/sup] Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. [sup]8[/sup] For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
[sup]9[/sup] “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. [sup]10[/sup] And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. [sup]11[/sup]are. [sup]12[/sup] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. [sup]13[/sup] But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. [sup]14[/sup] I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [sup]15[/sup] I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. [sup]16[/sup] They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [sup]17[/sup] Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. [sup]18[/sup] As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [sup]19[/sup] And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,
that they may be one as We

Jesus Prays for All Believers
[sup]20[/sup] “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; [sup]21[/sup] that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. [sup]22[/sup] And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: [sup]23[/sup] I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. [sup]24[/sup] “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. [sup]25[/sup] O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. [sup]26[/sup] And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.

Based on the word of God...I do not believe that Jesus was created, nor do I believe that he was Father God who came down in the form of flesh...

As the word clearly states...Jesus was the Son of God and equal with God in respect to all his attributes and fullness as God [God - the Son]

.He came to earth being obedient to his father [God - the Father], even death on the cross, on our behalf. He promised that he would not leave us as orphans but that he will send a helper to be with us forever, even to the end of age [God - the Holy Spirit] This is what I understand to be the Godhead - the Trinity...

John 14 NKJV
[sup]15[/sup] “If you love Me, keep My commandments. [sup]16[/sup] And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— [sup]17[/sup] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. [sup]18[/sup] I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


Indwelling of the Father and the Son
[sup]19[/sup] “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. [sup]20[/sup] At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. [sup]21[/sup] He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

I love this quote: :)

“Defend the Bible? I would just as soon defend a lion. Just turn the Bible loose. It will defend itself.”
Charles Spurgeon

I hope that this helped a little....Blessings!!!

 

[Vengle53]

My replies in Red to Anastacia.
My replies to Walking in Grace are in blue.

I do not claim to know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel. I do believe he was always higher than the angels and that lends greatness to the humility that he showed by willing submitting to become lower than the angels.
You do not know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel? But you have done nothing but reprimand others studying to know and understand what the scriptures tell us!?

I know because I am one in Christ. I need not guess because I actually do commune with Christ and sit with the Holy Spirit and that i cannot deny. You might fool others with such displays as this. However any sincere ones that cannot be presently untangled from your teachings will be untangled very shortly. In the end you will have accomplished nothing. My prayer for you is that when you come face to face with Christ you will then let go of such pride in your own knowledge that he might have mercy upon you and begin to teach you.

I do not judge you. There is one that judges us all. The word that Jesus spoke judges us. Our deviation from that word judges us.

You are describing things the way of a fleshly minded man who sees in a fleshly way. You describe words like angel and archangel as though a type of being, or a type of a parallel to a physical body. I see them as spiritual functions. I know that at times humans are called angels (messengers of God) in many places throughout the scriptures.

To say that Jesus was ever only an angel rubs my gut as disrespectful.

Since you claim that you don't know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel---then how in the world can you get your gut rubbed about it being disrespectful? Unlike you, many know what the scriptures say who Jesus is, and they think you are disrespectful.

But then being reasonable, I must admit that being chief over the angels (which is all archangel means) does not have to mean that he is himself an angel.
Archangel DOES mean angel!

You here argue like a locust who has not knowledge but only knows how to chew. Jesus served in a messenger function at times I am sure. But I am also sure that he was also more than that at any of those times.

The only value to anything you have said here is to try to impress others via emotions. You are making an emotional plea for agreement from those who think as you do. Silly, silly, silly. Better to be concerned with learning the truth than that others agree with you. Your views are the popular views. That in itself ought to be cause for you to rethink them for it was not prophesied to be that way.
______________________________

The Holy Spirit is of God and God can put it into whomever's hands he wishes to allow control of it.
So your answer is that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and that God only put it into Jesus' hands to allow control of it? That is a wrong answer.

My answer is that you speak what you do not know. You speak what you have squeezed the word to have it say to you. My answer is you are welcome to squeeze the word without my participation. I know all I am supposed to know about the Holy Spirit.

I tend to be annoyed that people seem to go to extremes in everything.
You sound very judgmental about other people.

You are welcome to pounce on that statement if you wish. Annoyed is not disturbed. The ignorance of others is their burden, not mine.

Why should men debate things that the scriptures themselves do not debate? Cannot men see that to do this only opens up a greater possibility for men's wisdom to begin mixing in with God's pure unadulterated Word? What you say doesn't make sense. You do not even know if Jesus was an angel or not, nor do you know that an archangel is an angel, yet you want people to not discuss certain things?

I would not expect that would make sense to you based upon your comments here. But that is OK. You are quite welcome to believe what you desire to believe.

But, yes, I have in the past deeply researched the subject. In accord with my stubbornness it took me a while to figure out that while I was spending my time trying to know things that the scriptures did not see fit to specifically detail, I was holding myself up from progressing on to learn the truly important things. I was not at that time really listening to the Spirit and allowing it to direct me.
Just because you can't figure it out...that doesn't mean no one else can.

You wish that were true. I did figure out what is meant for a man to figure out. I stopped trying to figure out what is not given to man to know at this present time.


I have some close relatives who became Jehovah's Witnesses. They teach that they in their door to door work are the locusts of the book of Joel. I do not quite understand how they can say that when it seems this speaks of their end: Joel 2:20 "But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things." But I could be wrong. I am currently pondering that. They tend not to like to talk to me, though, so it is a bit difficult to hear them out on the subject.

My point is that I can see where the chewing of the locusts which get into everything about the church (the church being pictured by the children of Zion there) is likely all of this unworthy contest that is generated by those that push to discuss beyond what the scriptures focus upon. But it seems these locusts have spread the tendency to do this as spreading a disease. And I am not saying it is only Jehovah's Witnesses that do that. I believe I see many who do it which has caused the physical appearance of the church to become sickly. This is the growth of the seed of the tares which has sought roots together with the good seed in the futile soil of the hearts of the visible sons of the kingdom.

That is some strange teaching you say the Jehovah Witnesses have.


You say Jesus is not God. So I then asked you to tell me if the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit or Jesus' Spirit. I gave you the choice of the Holy Spirit being God's or Jesus' because you say God and Jesus are not the same. Your answer is that the Holy Spirit is God's and that God allowed Jesus to control it. That answer is wrong. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and Jesus' Spirit. God and Jesus have the same Spirit because they are the same.

God's Spirit
Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

Jesus' Spirit
Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
Boy did you miss the point of that one! LOL.
God and Jesus have the same Spirit. God and Jesus are One. Jesus is God in the flesh.

You just like to argue. Stay right where you are in your understanding and whistle as though content.

 

[Anastacia]

Creator Of All---the LORD God Old Testament Psalm 102:24-27; Applied to Jesus in New Testament Heb 1:8,10-12

Prepare Way For---the LORD God Old Testament Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 1:23, 30.

The LORD God pierced---the LORD God Old Testament Zechariah 12:10; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 19:37

Call on the LORD God---the LORD God Old Testament Joel 2:32; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament Acts 2:21,36; 4:10-12

 

[Vengle53]

Creator Of All---the LORD God Old Testament Psalm 102:24-27; Applied to Jesus in New Testament Heb 1:8,10-12

Prepare Way For---the LORD God Old Testament Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 1:23, 30.

The LORD God pierced---the LORD God Old Testament Zechariah 12:10; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 19:37

Call on the LORD God---the LORD God Old Testament Joel 3:32; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament Acts 2:21,36; 4:10-12

I am going to go no further with on this subject as I see no point to it. Just keep thinking you understand if that is what you wish to do.

 

[Anastacia]

I'm done discussing anything with the member named Walking in Grace. I've tried to discuss patiently and kindly, but have spent too much time reading his/her brute insults and slanderous words.

 

[Vengle53]

I'm done discussing anything with the member named Walking in Grace. I've tried to discuss patiently and kindly, but have spent too much time reading his/her brute insults and slanderous words.

It is not an easy task to present the word when it disagrees with someone else's views.

Such is life. It all serves it purpose in its place else God would not allow it.

At least we do not resort to stoning each other as we realize that ultimately Christ himself will set matters straight and he will convince whomever might ultamately be convinced. So we judge that we have correctly understood knowing our own sincerety and sometimes the other does not like that. But we have not long left to wait. That is a joyful thought knowing Christ will be the one to call out the end of the matter.

 

[Vengle53]

I would like to take just a moment to speak about some features of translation that are absolutely necessary for a Bible student to understand lest they be prone to off-the-wall interpretations.

I have previously spoke about how one must understand the subject matter in places like Hebrews chapter one before they can accurately understand what it is saying. And I pointed out that Hebrews 2:5-10 is Paul's epitimization of what he spoke concerning in chapter one, that being how the promise to king David that his throne would endure forever was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. I will later present you a more precisely detailed proof of that. I will outline it so completely you will have to see what Paul is really saying.

For now though I would like to tell you a good thing that I very much respect about the KJV Bible, but that got lost when they wote the NKJV. And that is its treatment of singular and plural pronouns.

In the KJV, thee, thou, thy, and thine always were the singular pronoun in the original Biblical language. You, your, and yours were always translating the plural pronoun in the original Biblical language. But the NKJV lost that and began translating both plural and singular number pronouns as you, your, and yours just as we do in modern English.

If that is not bad enough, people are so spoiled of modern English that they most often read the plural pronouns you, your, and yours even from the KJV as though they are singular. And this corrupts their understanding of what the writer actually said. And being so spoiled by modern English, many do not even know how to apply them when they know they are plural.

This greatly affects our understanding of the temple and of the Holy Spirit.

I encourage you all to read in the front preface of an AKJV to see that what I have told you here is true.

In the original Biblical language the plural pronoun indicated that what the speaker stated applies broadly to the entire group being spoken to.

The singular pronoun applied to the inviduals within the group or even to a specific individual.

This is but one little thing you can take charge of learning so that you can stop being pawns to every twist of teaching which comes along to support someone's mistaken view of the scriptures being discussed.

Another thing I encourage you to learn about is Greek prepositions. They are sometimes wrongly transalted in the KJV and its offshoot Bibles. I can only figure that this was due to translator bias toward Trinitarian beliefs.

But you can learn about these things for yourself. They are not difficult to understand.

I would wish you could also learn more but those two things will in and of themselves greatly improve your ability to correctly understand what you read. Of course, when it comes to prepositions you will have to get in the habit of checking to see what prepositions was actually used in the original text.

If you do not care to do these simple things then you do not really care to accurately understand. That is your choice to make.

 

[Duckybill]

God needs nothing. Jesus needs God.

Jesus is God.

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "MY LORD AND MY GOD!" [sup]29 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

I absolutely know he was not.

In the flesh Jesus had to be the exact equal of man for him to win man out from under the penalty for sin.

The concept that Jesus was God in the flesh makes a joke out of what Jesus accomplished for us. It is based in a severe lack of deeper insight into the scriptures.

Satan loves that teaching.

Guess you missed this.

John 1 The Word was God... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Creator Of All---the LORD God Old Testament Psalm 102:24-27; Applied to Jesus in New Testament Heb 1:8,10-12

Prepare Way For---the LORD God Old Testament Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 1:23, 30.

The LORD God pierced---the LORD God Old Testament Zechariah 12:10; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 19:37

Call on the LORD God---the LORD God Old Testament Joel 2:32; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament Acts 2:21,36; 4:10-12

Excellent!

John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

You should have read what you wrote.

 

[tomwebster]

The Trinity isn't a mystery to me and I don't think it ever has been a mystery to me!

 

[TexUs]

Do you or don't you believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?

I absolutely know he was not.

Need anything else be said?


For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

 

[Vengle53]

Need anything else be said?


For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an Antichrist."

I preach the Christ (God's anointed one) as having come in the flesh. You may preach that God came in the flesh if you so desire.

You say it makes me the Antichrist because I say he was in the flesh :"the Christ, Son of the living God", even as Peter said. I say that you deny the Christ by saying it was God who came in the flesh. But I do not stone you or call you the Antichrist for this.

As I said, isn't it good to know that regardless of anyone's claims Christ will himself judge the end of the matter.

You wish to ignore me even though I have told you that I speak not of my own accord but as Christ through the Holy Spirit taught me I teach what I know for a fact to be his truth. And if you could manage to elicit the help of the administrators to stone me from off of this cite, you would stone me just as they stoned Stephen and Christ and my brothers and teachers in Christ before me.

It happens for a purpose: 1 Corinthians 11:18 "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

And that the tares be wound tighter into their own bundle at his revealing.

 

[TexUs]

Maybe I missed it but I've never seen you address John 1:1. I've brought it up once and it was brought up again but you ignore it.

If you have to ignore scripture to maintain a view, then your view is what's wrong, not the Bible.

 

[Vengle53]

Maybe I missed it but I've never seen you address John 1:1. I've brought it up once and it was brought up again but you ignore it.

If you have to ignore scripture to maintain a view, then your view is what's wrong, not the Bible.

I have not ignored anything. You evidently did not consider what I said.

I said that Christ was to us in the flesh, "The Word of God". I have said that he yet is to us, "The Word of God." I have said that Christ aways was and always will be to us and to every creature both in the heavens and upon earth, "The (absolute perfect) Word of God."

I am well studied in the Biblical languages. I used to get consumed in those debates not realizing that such is really only men's pride in their own intelligence seeking to create a platform to show off, while they sincerely believe they are only showing themselves staunch toward finding truth. A seemingly noble self-deception.

But Jesus one day came to me as he did Paul on the roadway to Damascus. He literaly blinded me with his glory at first for the purpose that my focus on what I personally zealously believed be interupted. And with my focus freed so that it was now totally trained upon him, he then revealed his truth to me. We have since communed regulary together, he and the Holy Spirit, and at times his angels also.

Jesus himself said, John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

If Jesus spoke "not of myself", then the Word that he spoke was not his. Jesus thus faithfully conveyed to us the example of how we ought to be, leaning not upon our own understanding but upon every word that comes from the mouth of the Father, even as Jesus did.

And because Jesus so perfectly never spoke of his self, but always spoke perfectly as the Father taught him to speak (John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."), he was indeed "The Word of God", the most faithful Son of God, and every word we heard through him belonged not to himself but to God.

Would you as an earthly father not be completely joyful with your son who showed such loyalty? Would you as an earthly father not give all that you have to support such a son?

Jesus is an example we can immitate. (John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.")

Without realizing it, you Trinitarians rob Jesus' example of it's purpose that we immitate it.

You have turned a very simple thing into something out of a science fiction movie that is silly and actually uncomprhendable despite your calims that you do understand it. In so doing you steal away men's focus from seeing that Jesus came to us as our example of how we also can walk in God's light.

John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

 

[Duckybill]

I preach the Christ (God's anointed one) as having come in the flesh. You may preach that God came in the flesh if you so desire.

God did come in the flesh. John 1 THE WORD WAS GOD.

 

[jacobtaylor]

I think both JW and christians have a similar understanding of Jesus, the difference is in who was he before his being made in the likeness of man?

 

[Anastacia]

2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an Antichrist."

I preach the Christ (God's anointed one) as having come in the flesh. You may preach that God came in the flesh if you so desire.

You say it makes me the Antichrist because I say he was in the flesh :"the Christ, Son of the living God", even as Peter said. I say that you deny the Christ by saying it was God who came in the flesh. But I do not stone you or call you the Antichrist for this.

As I said, isn't it good to know that regardless of anyone's claims Christ will himself judge the end of the matter.

You wish to ignore me even though I have told you that I speak not of my own accord but as Christ through the Holy Spirit taught me I teach what I know for a fact to be his truth. And if you could manage to elicit the help of the administrators to stone me from off of this cite, you would stone me just as they stoned Stephen and Christ and my brothers and teachers in Christ before me.

It happens for a purpose: 1 Corinthians 11:18 "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

And that the tares be wound tighter into their own bundle at his revealing.

I can hardly believe how you are talking to TexUs....as if you have forgotten all the slander you said to me and others....as you try to even here use scripture against TexUs!

I have not seen anyone here say Jesus did not come in the flesh. You falsely judge and accuse. God coming to earth as a man IS proclaiming that Jesus was a man and came in the flesh!

 

[Duckybill]

I think both JW and christians have a similar understanding of Jesus, the difference is in who was he before his being made in the likeness of man?

Not even close. Jesus is God. JW's STRONGLY deny this.

"THE WORD WAS GOD"

 

[Anastacia]

Jesus is God.

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "MY LORD AND MY GOD!" [sup]29 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."




Guess you missed this.

John 1 The Word was God... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.



Excellent!



You should have read what you wrote.

Thanks. And excellent information on this from you as well.

 

[TexUs]

I have not ignored anything. You evidently did not consider what I said.

I said that Christ was to us in the flesh, "The Word of God". I have said that he yet is to us, "The Word of God." I have said that Christ aways was and always will be to us and to every creature both in the heavens and upon earth, "The (absolute perfect) Word of God."

What a bastardization of the Word of God.


John 1:1


Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.


The literal translation:
In beginning was the word and the word was with God and God was the word


Period, end of story, game over. Jesus was God.

 

[Vengle53]

I can hardly believe how you are talking to TexUs....as if you have forgotten all the slander you said to me and others....as you try to even here use scripture against TexUs!

I have not seen anyone here say Jesus did not come in the flesh. You falsely judge and accuse. God coming to earth as a man IS proclaiming that Jesus was a man and came in the flesh!

You do not hear what i have said as you have your self sealed up in your own beliefs and are unable to listen.

You therefore twist what I say and slander me.

That is nothing new.