Solving the mistery of the trinity.

[Vengle53]

Not even close. Jesus is God. JW's STRONGLY deny this.

"THE WORD WAS GOD"

If Jesus never spoke of his own accord and all that he spoke was as his Father taught him to speak, then indeed that Word was God. It was not Jesus'.

Do you deny that Jesus said it was not his own word that he spoke?

You are filled with panic and confusion presently because you fail to understand.

Not one thing you say panics or confuses me, because I do understand.

I undersatnd well enough that I could defend your own doctrines for you but for the fact that I see clearly how and why they are wrong and so will not do so.

I take no joy in your panic. I would rather that you also come to understand so that God's peace could dwell uninterrupted in your heart.

But you will not allow that.

 

[Vengle53]

I do not see your wrong teachings to be proof that God is going to sentence you to hell and eternal torment.

That would not be the true God that I know and love.

It is nothing that someone tells another they are wrong about a belief. Yet many get excited over it as though they have been told that they are condemned.

That too is the fruit of some of your ill teachings.

And those teachings are nothing more than what I myself had to be untangled from. I do not see myself as better than you just because I by the grace of God was finally helped to understand.

In the end it will not be our doctrines that judge us, but our humility and meekness to learn, or more specifically, the lack there of.

There is a reason why a great crowd comes from out of the great tribulation having washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb and are then shown as presenting themselves willingly to Christ to be shepherded to the fountains (the true teachings) of the water of life.

I know that many of you will be among those ones. And I know that I cannot say who. Therefore your paranoia that I am judging you is just that.

When this is all finished we will all (all according to God's choosing) have that peace of God that excells all thought.

I look forward to that with you.

For now it is the big trees of righteousness that are being selected to serve as associate kings and priests for those thousand years. And our sons are being chosen to be princes in all the earth. The purpose is that the strong will be there to help the weak with their burden. And all of this is the spirit of Christ living within us as we closely follow the Father's spirit as did he.

We will be there for you.

 

[Duckybill]

If Jesus never spoke of his own accord and all that he spoke was as his Father taught him to speak, then indeed that Word was God. It was not Jesus'.

Jesus is not the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us??? Have you even read John 1? The rest of the chapter clearly shows that it is talking of Jesus.

Do you deny that Jesus said it was not his own word that he spoke?

Scripture please.

You are filled with panic and confusion presently because you fail to understand.

Not one thing you say panics or confuses me, because I do understand.

Such immaturity.

I undersatnd well enough that I could defend your own doctrines for you but for the fact that I see clearly how and why they are wrong and so will not do so.

I take no joy in your panic. I would rather that you also come to understand so that God's peace could dwell uninterrupted in your heart.

But you will not allow that.

Your smoke screen of immaturity doesn't change the Truth. Jesus is God.

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "MY LORD AND MY GOD!" [sup]29 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

I do not see your wrong teachings to be proof that God is going to sentence you to hell and eternal torment.

That would not be the true God that I know and love.

It is nothing that someone tells another they are wrong about a belief. Yet many get excited over it as though they have been told that they are condemned.

That too is the fruit of some of your ill teachings.

And those teachings are nothing more than what I myself had to be untangled from. I do not see myself as better than you just because I by the grace of God was finally helped to understand.

In the end it will not be our doctrines that judge us, but our humility and meekness to learn, or more specifically, the lack there of.

There is a reason why a great crowd comes from out of the great tribulation having washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb and are then shown as presenting themselves willingly to Christ to be shepherded to the fountains (the true teachings) of the water of life.

I know that many of you will be among those ones. And I know that I cannot say who. Therefore your paranoia that I am judging you is just that.

When this is all finished we will all (all according to God's choosing) have that peace of God that excells all thought.

I look forward to that with you.

For now it is the big trees of righteousness that are being selected to serve as associate kings and priests for those thousand years. And our sons are being chosen to be princes in all the earth. The purpose is that the strong will be there to help the weak with their burden. And all of this is the spirit of Christ living within us as we closely follow the Father's spirit as did he.

We will be there for you.

I give little hope to those who deny that Jesus is God.

John 21:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "LORD, YOU KNOW ALL THINGS; YOU KNOW THAT I LOVE YOU." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.

 

[Duckybill]

If Jesus never spoke of his own accord and all that he spoke was as his Father taught him to speak, then indeed that Word was God. It was not Jesus'.

If the Word that was God and became flesh isn't Jesus then tell us who it was.

 

[Vengle53]

Jesus is not the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us??? Have you even read John 1? The rest of the chapter clearly shows that it is talking of Jesus.

Scripture please.

Such immaturity.

Your smoke screen of immaturity doesn't change the Truth. Jesus is God.

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "MY LORD AND MY GOD!" [sup]29 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."




I give little hope to those who deny that Jesus is God.

John 21:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "LORD, YOU KNOW ALL THINGS; YOU KNOW THAT I LOVE YOU." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.

LOL !!! Thank God that decision is not in your hands. That is OK though. I don't mind your thinking that. The way I look at it is that at least it shows you care.

I will take a moment to comment on those verses, though I know you are not about to jump up and say "I see !!!"

Jesus is our revelation of God. It is indeed quite impossible for us to know God on our own even though creation itself testifies to us about him. The sin in us renders us by ourselves incapable of correctly interpreting what creation tells us. Thus we see throughout mankind's history that many relying only on the creation to know God have come up with some pretty wild understandings of God. The book of Job is a huge help to see this.

We were in our lone efforts to know God like travelers seeing dimly through the darkness away off in the distance and not knowing which lights we saw ahead of us directly led to God and which lights were being reflected off of other things and so were not a straight path to God.

We sorely needed God to send his light to us as we were incapable of going to it. And what God sent to us was a man to walk as we need to learn to walk. God sent to us a man who not only knew how to flawlessly walk himself directly to that light that is God, but who also shined that light so brightly through himself toward us that we would be able to know he was the one God had sent to us to deliver us from our darkness.

And that is what Doubting Thomas was so elated to so clearly see. Christ is the door to God. When that door is opened we are finally become able to see God.

Christ knows all things because he as a loyal Son always listens to his Father and never loses sight of his Father.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."


This is not easy for you to digest. It is like adjusting to a new diet. The body of flesh rebels for a while.

 

[Vengle53]

If the Word that was God and became flesh isn't Jesus then tell us who it was.

Thank you for another chuckle. LOL. That is cute and so human.

You have it stuck in your mind that the Word has to be literally God in order for it to be true that "the Word was God." I mean, even the Trinitarian scholars have defined the Trinity that way.

Can you not see that you are stuck on the letter in so viewing it only that way? That is in fact the principal blocker to spiritual eyesight.

Think about it a little longer.

 

[Duckybill]

LOL !!! Thank God that decision is not in your hands. That is OK though. I don't mind your thinking that. The way I look at it is that at least it shows you care.

I will take a moment to comment on those verses, though I know you are not about to jump up and say "I see !!!"

Jesus is our revelation of God. It is indeed quite impossible for us to know God on our own even though creation itself testifies to us about him. The sin in us renders us by ourselves incapable of correctly interpreting what creation tells us. Thus we see throughout mankind's history that many relying only on the creation to know God have come up with some pretty wild understandings of God. The book of Job is a huge help to see this.

We were in our lone efforts to know God like travelers seeing dimly through the darkness away off in the distance and not knowing which lights we saw ahead of us directly led to God and which lights were being reflected off of other things and so were not a straight path to God.

We sorely needed God to send his light to us as we were incapable of going to it. And what God sent to us was a man to walk as we need to learn to walk. God sent to us a man who not only knew how to flawlessly walk himself directly to that light that is God, but who also shined that light so brightly through himself toward us that we would be able to know he was the one God had sent to us to deliver us from our darkness.

And that is what Doubting Thomas was so elated to so clearly see. Christ is the door to God. When that door is opened we are finally become able to see God.

Christ knows all things because he as a loyal Son always listens to his Father and never loses sight of his Father.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

This is not easy for you to digest. It is like adjusting to a new diet. The body of flesh rebels for a while.

You evaded answering either Scripture. Thomas called Jesus God. Jesus didn't deny it. Peter said Jesus knows everything. Jesus didn't deny it. John said THE WORD WAS GOD and BECAME FLESH.

 

[Keeping Alert]

Walking in Grace,

May I humbly offer another angle to look at this issue?

Who do we sin against? We sin against God.

God demands punishment for sin.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God

For God to forgive sin, God must be justified that punishment has been met out - whether by the sinful man or by a substitute.

That punishment is death - For the wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23

God does not want punish sinful man if it is possible.

My question then is - would God be fair if the substitute he chooses be an angel or anything other than God? Or would God be more righteous if God himself paid and took the punishment of death upon Himself?

I mean if someone borrowed a million dollars from me (not that I have that but just an analogy) and sins against me by refusing to return that money to me. Am I righteous to go to Bill Gates, and demand he pays the million dollars to me? Or will I be righteous by forgiving this guy of that one million dollars by taking the punishment to write off this amount?

Blessings,
KA

 

[Vengle53]

Sorry Ducky,

I missed replying to your request for scripture to support my question to you: "Do you deny that Jesus said it was not his own word that he spoke?"

John 8:28 partial quote: "... I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

John 14:10 partial quote: "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: ..."

John 17:8 partial quote: "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; ..."

Remember that you (we) can be one as they are one, we in them and they in us.

John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

In other words, just as God could dwell in Jesus and speak through Jesus God can also do that with you (if you immitate Jesus example of how to do it).

 

[Duckybill]

Sorry Ducky,

I missed replying to your request for scripture to support my question to you: "Do you deny that Jesus said it was not his own word that he spoke?"

John 8:28 partial quote: "... I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

John 14:10 partial quote: "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: ..."

John 17:8 partial quote: "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; ..."

Remember that you (we) can be one as they are one, we in them and they in us.

John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

In other words, just as God could dwell in Jesus and speak through Jesus God can also do that with you (if you immitate Jesus example of how to do it).

Jesus was sinless. We are not. Big difference.

When Jesus became flesh He set aside His Divine attributes. He was guided by His Father. He gave us the Words that the Father gave Him while in the flesh. His Words are the Words of God. Jesus was still God. Jesus' Kingdom will be eternal, because Jesus is Almighty God.

You still didn't address the Scriptures I quoted. Thomas called Jesus God. Peter said Jesus knows everything. John said THE WORD WAS GOD and BECAME FLESH.

 

[Vengle53]

Walking in Grace,

May I humbly offer another angle to look at this issue?

Who do we sin against? We sin against God.

God demands punishment for sin.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God

For God to forgive sin, God must be justified that punishment has been met out - whether by the sinful man or by a substitute.

That punishment is death - For the wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23

God does not want punish sinful man if it is possible.

My question then is - would God be fair if the substitute he chooses be an angel or anything other than God? Or would God be more righteous if God himself paid and took the punishment of death upon Himself?

I mean if someone borrowed a million dollars from me (not that I have that but just an analogy) and sins against me by refusing to return that money to me. Am I righteous to go to Bill Gates, and demand he pays the million dollars to me? Or will I be righteous by forgiving this guy of that one million dollars by taking the punishment to write off this amount?

Blessings,
KA

I sense that you are a very sincere and methodical thinker. Your approach and your points are very humble. That is beautiful to see and such love excels knowledge. That highlights the important thing God is looking to find in us.

Matthew 5 speaks of how we are to become bearers of the light. I believe that light shines more of love than of knowledge. For the humble I know in my heart God will not despise.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you in part. This is resolved around the fact that God sent us his Son who was, in the beginning of the creation of all the universe and of man, the one for whom all things were created. We are because of God's good pleasure in his Son. And because the Son was the one over all things by God's good pleasure his Son took responsibility for what was his:

Proverbs 8:30-31 "Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him, Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men."

Does that help any?

 

[Anastacia]

Sorry Ducky,

I missed replying to your request for scripture to support my question to you: "Do you deny that Jesus said it was not his own word that he spoke?"

John 8:28 partial quote: "... I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

John 14:10 partial quote: "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: ..."

John 17:8 partial quote: "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; ..."

Remember that you (we) can be one as they are one, we in them and they in us.

John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

In other words, just as God could dwell in Jesus and speak through Jesus God can also do that with you (if you immitate Jesus example of how to do it).

These scriptures DO NOT prove what you want them to. These scriptures DO NOT prove that Jesus isn't God. These scriptures PROVE that Jesus came in the flesh....that God came as a man.


You said: "Remember that you (we) can be one as they are one, we in them and they in us. In other words, just as God could dwell in Jesus and speak through Jesus God can also do that with you (if you immitate Jesus example of how to do it)."

Are you kidding?! We cannot become Jesus no matter how much like him we try to be! You are wrong.

 

[Vengle53]

These scriptures DO NOT prove what you want them to. These scriptures DO NOT prove that Jesus isn't God. These scriptures PROVE that Jesus came in the flesh....that God came as a man.


You said: "Remember that you (we) can be one as they are one, we in them and they in us. In other words, just as God could dwell in Jesus and speak through Jesus God can also do that with you (if you immitate Jesus example of how to do it)."

Are kidding?! We cannot become Jesus no matter how much like him we try to be! You are wrong.

Sorry to startle you.

But Jesus was not sent here only to show off to us. He was: Hebrews 2:17a "... in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his [Hebrew] brethren [who were under the Old Law],.." so that they (and we) could follow his example.

Hebrews 5:8-9 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" In other words he showed us how to do it if we but listen to him and obey him.


1 Peter 2:21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:"

And by the way, no one can do that lest they have in them the same spirit that Christ had in him. Ponder Romans chapter eight.

 

[Anastacia]

Sorry to startle you.

But Jesus was not sent here only to show off to us. He was: Hebrews 2:17a "... in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his [Hebrew] brethren [who were under the Old Law],.." so that they could follow his example.

Hebrews 5:8-9 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" In other words he showed us how to do it if we but listen to him and obey him.


1 Peter 2:21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:"

Do you want to stop being annoying? If you do, then start with that dumb presumptuous comments like "Sorry to startle you." I guess you must of been the one I startled? And who said Jesus was sent here to show off to us? Who said that? You constantly judge, and wrongly at that. Stick to what we actually say here, and stop with letting your mind get carried away into all kinds of thoughts about us.
Why did you bring up Hebrews 2:17? And, where does it say 17a? It does not say what you say---"so that they could follow his example." The Bible says "in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God,.." Be more careful about adding your own words to what the Word of God says.


Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

 

[Vengle53]

Do you want to stop being annoying? If you do, then start with that dumb presumptuous comments like "Sorry to startle you." I guess you must of been the one I startled? And who said Jesus was sent here to show off to us? Who said that? You constantly judge, and wrongly at that. Stick to what we actually say here, and stop with letting your mind get carried away into all kinds of thoughts about us.
Why did you bring up Hebrews 2:17? And, where does it say 17a? It does not say what you say---"so that they could follow his example." The Bible says "in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God,.." Be more careful about adding your own words to what the Word of God says.


Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Do you think the priests had no part in instructing the people?

I am providing you with just enough information that if you are willing you can finish searching it out for your self.

Sorry if my sense of humor annoys you, but hey, I think I do pretty good for feeling as I do with the flu bug that is gripping me. And i will not bore you with all of the other physical problems afflicting me with pain and agony. Pehaps if i seem sarcastic to you it is just my coping with these things.

Offense is in one's own bosom as beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Anastacia]

Do you think the priests had no part in instructing the people?

I am providing you with just enough information that if you are willing you can finish searching it out for your self.

Sorry if my sense of humor annoys you, but hey, I think I do pretty good for feeling as I do with the flu bug that is gripping me. And i will not bore you with all of the other physical problems afflicting me with pain and agony. Pehaps if i seem sarcastic to you it is just my coping with these things.

Offense is in one's own bosom as beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You won't bore me by telling me of the pyhsical problems that afflict you. It saddens me so much to read that you are "with pain and agony."

It's not so much humor that annoys me...it's your assumptions about what we are thinking and feeling... I will try to see the humor for now on in what you say.

You asked "do you think the priests had no part in instructing the people?" Why are you asking me that? And, get to the point. Don't just provide me with enough information....again, get to the point, OK?

Walking in Grace,

There is something else I wanted to say to you... Since you do not believe Jesus is God, and you say you don't know if Jesus was an angel or not...what could Jesus be to you then? Jesus CAME from Heaven.

 

[jacobtaylor]

I am providing you with just enough information that if you are willing you can finish searching it out for your self.

Is this proclaiming a message?
Not very transparent, we'll simply have to wait for the stones to cry out. Col 4:6

 

[Vengle53]

Is this proclaiming a message?
Not very transparent, we'll simply have to wait for the stones to cry out. Col 4:6

Indeed. Most men are so full of their elation with what they think they know, that they give themselves no room to learn.

And it does not violate the principle of Colossians 4:6 for me to point that out to anyone. It is in fact love that speaks such truth to others.

It matters not who says it, if it disagrees with what they believe they will not receive it well.

Jesus describes that as the eye being dark thus making the whole body dark. The person with a dark eye will naturally see another's caring attempt to help them as a violation of Colossians 4:6.

And to understand how Colossians 4:6 properly applies we need to consider the example of the one that wrote it. He was no wimp, either. Nor was Christ. Many took offence to them and falsely accused them of violating that principle. But it is as I said, "Offence is to one's bosom as beauty is to the eye of the beholder."

Are you glad I did not allude to this one? Ecclesiastes 7:9 "Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools."

 

[Duckybill]

Indeed. Most men are so full of their elation with what they think they know, that they give themselves no room to learn.

And it does not violate the principle of Colossians 4:6 for me to point that out to anyone. It is in fact love that speaks such truth to others.

It matters not who says it, if it disagrees with what they believe they will not receive it well.

Jesus describes that as the eye being dark thus making the whole body dark. The person with a dark eye will naturally see another's caring attempt to help them as a violation of Colossians 4:6.

And to understand how Colossians 4:6 properly applies we need to consider the example of the one that wrote it. He was no wimp, either. Nor was Christ. Many took offence to them and falsely accused them of violating that principle. But it is as I said, "Offence is to one's bosom as beauty is to the eye of the beholder."

Are you glad I did not allude to this one? Ecclesiastes 7:9 "Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools."

How can you teach others when you cannot answer simple questions I have asked?

 

[Anastacia]

But it is as I said, "Offence is to one's bosom as beauty is to the eye of the beholder."

Sorry, Walking in Grace, but that is not a very wise saying. Human wisdom is it? There is responsibility for a person to not deliberately try to offend others.