Some Difficulties Understanding

[GracePeace]

No, I absolutely am not.

If you say "Paul 'went out from among' John in fulfillment of 1 John 2:18,19", you most certainly are calling him an antichrist--if you are offended by your calling Paul an antichrist, then don't call him an antichrist lol

 

[Davy]

Well, I'm saying that if Christ says He will lose none, but, also, that some branches get cut off and thrown in the fire for their own fault of not abiding in Him, then maybe the correct understanding is that those who keep the Word will be kept by the Word that they keep (as.Rev 3 says).

Well... yeah.

Stay in HIS Word, and no problem, won't be deceived. Do not stay in HIS Word, and be deceived. It's that simple. And deception is one of the main warnings Lord Jesus gave us about the end time events, per His Olivet discourse.

I understand this as meaning that by reason of his public rejection and shaming (by the Church), and the destruction of of his flesh (by satan), he MIGHT repent so that his spirit might be saved at the judgment instead of being destroyed ("Who can destroy both body and soul").

I've never espoused "health and wealth" (you can check all of my posts over the years) ; I was interacting with the texts, and with Monergism, in the OP.

In 1 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul was... pointing to that sinner may being saved during the future day of Christ, which is about Christ's future "thousand years" reign that begins at His future 2nd coming.

Men's doctrine called Amillennialism does not believe that future "thousand years" is a literal period, and thus proves the confusion the believer is faced with when not... staying in God's Word as written, but heeding men's doctrines instead. Each believer's choice which way they decide to believe.

 

[Davy]

I meant that Christ says He will lose none, yet branches get cut off and thrown in the fire, so the solution to this conundrum might be that Christ (the Word) loses none who keep the Word (Christ).

Yes.

Because the idea of Apostle Paul's 'falling away' of 2 Thessalonians 2 means to leave what one had once believed and held to. That is what the Greek word apostasia there means, and what it means to become an apostate.

And here is what staying in that specific 2 Thessalonians 2 Scripture instead of men's doctrines reveals. That time of many 'falling away' is not for today that many wrongly preach. It is an event linked to the appearance of that "man of sin" sitting in a new stone temple in Jerusalem working great signs and wonders to show that he is God. That is the same pseudo-Christ that Lord Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:23-26. So ask around in your Church about that coming false-Messiah; how many in your Church know about that coming event closer to the end of this world?

But like I have shown about Christ's future Millennial reign when He returns, it's going to be bootcamp for many deceived brethren who fell away. So we are not to judge before the time. The final Judgment of casting into the lake of fire does not happen until after... that "thousand years" Millennial reign by Jesus and His elect.

 

[GracePeace]

Well... yeah.

Stay in HIS Word, and no problem, won't be deceived. Do not stay in HIS Word, and be deceived. It's that simple. And deception is one of the main warnings Lord Jesus gave us about the end time events, per His Olivet discourse.

Well, the conundrum needed to be worked out (for me)--and I'm still not saying I do have it worked out lol

In 1 Corinthians 5, apostle Paul was... pointing to that sinner may being saved during the future day of Christ, which is about Christ's future "thousand years" reign that begins at His future 2nd coming.

Men's doctrine called Amillennialism does not believe that future "thousand years" is a literal period, and thus proves the confusion the believer is faced with when not... staying in God's Word as written, but heeding men's doctrines instead. Each believer's choice which way they decide to believe.

I take it differently.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes.

Because the idea of Apostle Paul's 'falling away' of 2 Thessalonians 2 means to leave what one had once believed and held to. That is what the Greek word apostasia there means, and what it means to become an apostate.

And here is what staying in that specific 2 Thessalonians 2 Scripture instead of men's doctrines reveals. That time of many 'falling away' is not for today that many wrongly preach. It is an event linked to the appearance of that "man of sin" sitting in a new stone temple in Jerusalem working great signs and wonders to show that he is God. That is the same pseudo-Christ that Lord Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:23-26. So ask around in your Church about that coming false-Messiah; how many in your Church know about that coming event closer to the end of this world?

But like I have shown about Christ's future Millennial reign when He returns, it's going to be bootcamp for many deceived brethren who fell away. So we are not to judge before the time. The final Judgment of casting into the lake of fire does not happen until after... that "thousand years" Millennial reign by Jesus and His elect.

We differ on eschatology, but I don't want to get in to that topic, because it isn't the focus here.

 

[bdavidc]

John teaches "if they were of us, they would have continued with us", which someone could argue necessarily follows from, "I will lose none, but will raise them up on the last day", but, also, Jesus says disciples who do not abide (by faith in the Name of God's Son and by walking in love 1 John 3:23,24) are cut off, dry up, and are thrown in the fire, and John says this teaching applies to God's children (1 John 2:28), warning them that if they do not abide in Christ they will draw back in shame at His return.

So, on one hand, John seemingly allows for the possibility that the children might not remain, warning them of the consequences of not remaining, but, on the other hand, John seemingly disallows that anyone who is born of God might not remain, because if they are of "us", they will remain, and not "went out from among us" (1 John 2:19). (I'm not sure if this might be related to "I will in no wise cast them out.")

John is not contradicting himself. He is exposing the difference between profession and new birth. A man can sit in the barn and still not be a cow. Being around the things of God does not mean the life of God is in you.

When John says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us” ~1 John 2:19, he is saying their departure proved they were never truly part of Christ. The warnings about abiding are real, but they function as tests, not proof that regeneration can be undone. Jesus says branches that do not abide are burned ~John 15:6, because they never had life in them. Fire is for dead wood, not living branches.

John urges those who bear the name of God’s children to abide ~1 John 2:28. True children heed the warning and remain. False professors ignore it and are exposed. As Scripture says, “Whosoever is born of God… his seed remaineth in him” ~1 John 3:9.

Abiding does not keep someone saved. Abiding proves they were born of God in the first place.

 

[Davy]

Well, the conundrum needed to be worked out (for me)--and I'm still not saying I do have it worked out lol

You will come to understand the more you study with staying in God's Word as written.

I take it differently.

I realize that. Most Churches today don't really understand what that future "thousand years" period will be about. They instead teach that converts to The Gospel in that future time is like a 'second chance theory', when it is not. Many peoples during this present world have not had their first opportunity to hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ and believe. Lot of preachers try to say everyone in this world has had their chance, but that's just a ludicrous notion on their part.

Apostle Paul especially showed this in Romans 11 when he revealed that God has put the spirit of slumber away from The Gospel upon the majority of Jews during this present world time, and that blindness won't be removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which means on the day of Christ's future return. Bible Scripture about their appearing in shame when they see Lord Jesus coming even exists to show they remain blinded to The Gospel all the way up to Christ's return.

These are Biblical details taught in God's written Word, but many Churches seldom cover them.

 

[Davy]

We differ on eschatology, but I don't want to get in to that topic, because it isn't the focus here.

Well, because you said that, I must say the following...

Those of Christ's disciples that 'stay'... in His Word as written will always differ on the depth of what is taught in most Churches. The main job of the Churches is to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and then with a called teacher, to feed Christ's sheep HIS Word. Most Churches are established to only do the former, i.e., preach The Gospel. Not many Churches have a teaching pastor that can teach the whole Bible. Those Churches that do have a teaching pastor, will have a deeper Bible understanding, so of course their eschatology may sound different, when it is actually more Bible focused. That's something to consider.

 

[GracePeace]

John is not contradicting himself. He is exposing the difference between profession and new birth. A man can sit in the barn and still not be a cow. Being around the things of God does not mean the life of God is in you.

When John says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us” ~1 John 2:19, he is saying their departure proved they were never truly part of Christ. The warnings about abiding are real, but they function as tests, not proof that regeneration can be undone. Jesus says branches that do not abide are burned ~John 15:6, because they never had life in them. Fire is for dead wood, not living branches.

John urges those who bear the name of God’s children to abide ~1 John 2:28. True children heed the warning and remain. False professors ignore it and are exposed. As Scripture says, “Whosoever is born of God… his seed remaineth in him” ~1 John 3:9.

Abiding does not keep someone saved. Abiding proves they were born of God in the first place.

Branches / disciples / "little children" who don't abide are cut off and are thrown in the fire ; accordingly, John warns the children "abide in Him" in order that they might not draw back in shame at His return.

Some statements John makes ("does not go on sinning") are specifically against Gnostic teaching. Gnostics taught that the material world is evil, and, as corollaries of that position, 1) contrary to the teachings of the Apostles, Christians will continue in gross sins (eg, they engaged in sexual depravities), and 2) because Christ is holy, He had not incarnated (hence, "what ever spirit confesses Christ is come in the flesh is of God"). Therefore, we differ on the significance of the verse.

 

[GracePeace]

I realize that. Most Churches today don't really understand what that future "thousand years" period will be about. They instead teach that converts to The Gospel in that future time is like a 'second chance theory', when it is not. Many peoples during this present world have not had their first opportunity to hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ and believe. Lot of preachers try to say everyone in this world has had their chance, but that's just a ludicrous notion on their part.

Apostle Paul especially showed this in Romans 11 when he revealed that God has put the spirit of slumber away from The Gospel upon the majority of Jews during this present world time, and that blindness won't be removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which means on the day of Christ's future return. Bible Scripture about their appearing in shame when they see Lord Jesus coming even exists to show they remain blinded to The Gospel all the way up to Christ's return.

These are Biblical details taught in God's written Word, but many Churches seldom cover them.

It's not the topic.

 

[GracePeace]

Well, because you said that, I must say the following...

Those of Christ's disciples that 'stay'... in His Word as written will always differ on the depth of what is taught in most Churches. The main job of the Churches is to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and then with a called teacher, to feed Christ's sheep HIS Word. Most Churches are established to only do the former, i.e., preach The Gospel. Not many Churches have a teaching pastor that can teach the whole Bible. Those Churches that do have a teaching pastor, will have a deeper Bible understanding, so of course their eschatology may sound different, when it is actually more Bible focused. That's something to consider.

Every person thinks their own views, including their eschatological views, are "more Bible focused" than the next person's--the focus of this thread will not waver. It really seems you are eager to divulge your understanding on the issue of eschatology. Maybe you can start a post about it?

 

[ScottA]

If you say "Paul 'went out from among' John in fulfillment of 1 John 2:18,19", you most certainly are calling him an antichrist--if you are offended by your calling Paul an antichrist, then don't call him an antichrist lol

You didn't even quote me right--but give false witness. The source of which is no mystery. "Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness" (Luke 11:35).

 

[GracePeace]

You didn't even quote me right--but give false witness. The source of which is no mystery. "Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness" (Luke 11:35).

The verse I cited in the OP, which verse you were to be responding to, and which you quoted, saying, "Paul went out from among John", was 1 John 2:18,19--you are free to admit you erred, though I doubt you will.

Unless you repent and admit your error, or somehow prove that you were not applying 1 Jn 2:18,19 to Paul (which, given the context, as explained, I don't see how that could be), this is my last comment to you on the issue here in this thread.

 

[Taken]

I meant that Christ says He will lose none, yet branches get cut off and thrown in the fire, so the solution to this conundrum might be that Christ (the Word) loses none who keep the Word (Christ).

Agree.

Christ loses NONE He HAS.

No such thing AS Saved “then” NOT SAVED.

Once a man IS Saved, Forever and Always that man IS SAVED.

ie. The premise for… OSAS.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[XtraPercept]

John teaches "if they were of us, they would have continued with us", which someone could argue necessarily follows from, "I will lose none, but will raise them up on the last day", but, also, Jesus says disciples who do not abide (by faith in the Name of God's Son and by walking in love 1 John 3:23,24) are cut off, dry up, and are thrown in the fire, and John says this teaching applies to God's children (1 John 2:28), warning them that if they do not abide in Christ they will draw back in shame at His return.

So, on one hand, John seemingly allows for the possibility that the children might not remain, warning them of the consequences of not remaining, but, on the other hand, John seemingly disallows that anyone who is born of God might not remain, because if they are of "us", they will remain, and not "went out from among us" (1 John 2:19). (I'm not sure if this might be related to "I will in no wise cast them out.")

This is an illustration of what plays out according to the roots and origins of the Christ-like behavior a professing believer exhibits. Fruits of the Spirit from the Spirit are consistent while the expressions of falsehood introduce confusion, deception, and delusion.

Those walking in the Spirit in truth and sincerity will do so in how they think. Those who attempt to tread water without faith will sink. The Spirit is the true Fountain, but the worldly don't know how to drink.

 

[Davy]

Branches / disciples / "little children" who don't abide are cut off and are thrown in the fire ; accordingly, John warns the children "abide in Him" in order that they might not draw back in shame at His return.

Some statements John makes ("does not go on sinning") are specifically against Gnostic teaching. Gnostics taught that the material world is evil, and, as corollaries of that position, 1) contrary to the teachings of the Apostles, Christians will continue in gross sins (eg, they engaged in sexual depravities), and 2) because Christ is holy, He had not incarnated (hence, "what ever spirit confesses Christ is come in the flesh is of God"). Therefore, we differ on the significance of the verse.

Please do not try and strap me... with those Gnostic insinuations.

I stay with Bible Scripture as written, not men's traditions which you are weaving in and out of Gnosticism.

And I do not play the doctrines of men 'Humanism' traditions. The KJV of Romans 7 translates what Paul taught about our flesh perfectly.

So if you see what Apostle Paul taught below about our flesh as Gnosticism, then it means you are not staying with God's Word as written...

Rom 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

The above strikes out men's false traditions that try to claim that we in Christ can literally be perfect and without sin while in these temporary flesh bodies. And Apostle Paul did... make a distinction between our real person and our flesh particularly in 2 Corinthians 5 when he said to be absent from the body (flesh) is to be present with The Lord. Nor is the resurrection to a new flesh body, but to a "spiritual body" like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. Nor are the dead literally asleep in the ground either, which 'soul sleep' is an old Jewish tradition.

This is why in 1 John 1 he shows that those in Christ STILL need to repent of FUTURE SIN. But men who want to glorify the flesh think once they accept Jesus Christ they can't sin anymore, and thus have no need for further repentance.

And none... of the above is about Gnosticism.

I'm well aware of what 2nd century Gnosticism is about that crept in among the early Church. It is deeply rooted in paganism, including Neo-Platonism, a Greek philosophy.

 

[Davy]

It's not the topic.

It was as an 'example' that I was giving. But you obviously missed my purpose in that.

 

[Davy]

Every person thinks their own views, including their eschatological views, are "more Bible focused" than the next person's--

Such as yourself?

--the focus of this thread will not waver. It really seems you are eager to divulge your understanding on the issue of eschatology. Maybe you can start a post about it?

Again, you miss the purpose of the Biblical examples I gave. They are examples applied to the main Topic of this thread. But it seems that you don't like the particular Bible examples in contrast with men's doctrines that I have given. I see that as attempting to limit what I have said and shown. Sorry, but this is a Public thread. If you wanted to have total control of the conversation here, you should have used the Debate thread, etc.

Thus the supposed Biblical 'conundrum' you mention doesn't really exist, except in your own mind.

 

[GracePeace]

Agree.

Christ loses NONE He HAS.

No such thing AS Saved “then” NOT SAVED.

Once a man IS Saved, Forever and Always that man IS SAVED.

ie. The premise for… OSAS.

Glory to God,
Taken

I'm sorry, my point was that some who have His Word do not abide in Him (ie, by not abiding in His Word : "if that which you heard from the beginning abides in you you will abide in Him"), thus they are cut off and thrown in the fire : Christ will lose none who keep His Word, not "no one can fall away".

 

[GracePeace]

This is an illustration of what plays out according to the roots and origins of the Christ-like behavior a professing believer exhibits. Fruits of the Spirit from the Spirit are consistent while the expressions of falsehood introduce confusion, deception, and delusion.

Those walking in the Spirit in truth and sincerity will do so in how they think. Those who attempt to tread water without faith will sink. The Spirit is the true Fountain, but the worldly don't know how to drink.

Thanks for participating