Some Difficulties Understanding

[GracePeace]

Please do not try and strap me... with those Gnostic insinuations.

The reply addressed user @bdavidc, so idk why you would make yourself the center of the matter.

I stay with Bible Scripture as written, not men's traditions which you are weaving in and out of Gnosticism.

Empty allegations.

And I do not play the doctrines of men 'Humanism' traditions. The KJV of Romans 7 translates what Paul taught about our flesh perfectly.

So if you see what Apostle Paul taught below about our flesh as Gnosticism, then it means you are not staying with God's Word as written...

Rom 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

The above strikes out men's false traditions that try to claim that we in Christ can literally be perfect and without sin while in these temporary flesh bodies. And Apostle Paul did... make a distinction between our real person and our flesh particularly in 2 Corinthians 5 when he said to be absent from the body (flesh) is to be present with The Lord. Nor is the resurrection to a new flesh body, but to a "spiritual body" like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. Nor are the dead literally asleep in the ground either, which 'soul sleep' is an old Jewish tradition.

This is why in 1 John 1 he shows that those in Christ STILL need to repent of FUTURE SIN. But men who want to glorify the flesh think once they accept Jesus Christ they can't sin anymore, and thus have no need for further repentance.

And none... of the above is about Gnosticism.

I'm well aware of what 2nd century Gnosticism is about that crept in among the early Church. It is deeply rooted in paganism, including Neo-Platonism, a Greek philosophy.

You're still trying to take control of the thread / change the topic--and I'm still not going to let that happen. You're off topic.

 

[GracePeace]

It was as an 'example' that I was giving. But you obviously missed my purpose in that.

Your "purpose" is to make yourself the center of the thread--that's not happening.

 

[GracePeace]

Such as yourself?

Of course : my purpose in discussing, sometimes, is to check my blind spots. I subject my views to scrutiny to help improve. That said, I started out by saying I did not know how to reconcile the two, so I was looking for help / opinions.

Again, you miss the purpose of the Biblical examples I gave. They are examples applied to the main Topic of this thread. But it seems that you don't like the particular Bible examples in contrast with men's doctrines that I have given. I see that as attempting to limit what I have said and shown. Sorry, but this is a Public thread. If you wanted to have total control of the conversation here, you should have used the Debate thread, etc.

Thus the supposed Biblical 'conundrum' you mention doesn't really exist, except in your own mind.

No, your desire is not to help me but to help yourself.

 

[Taken]

I'm sorry, my point was that some who have His Word do not abide in Him (ie, by not abiding in His Word : "if that which you heard from the beginning abides in you you will abide in Him"), thus they are cut off and thrown in the fire : Christ will lose none who keep His Word, not "no one can fall away".

Men can hear, believe Gods Word…
And keep it… and the Word will be WITH that man.
Or
Spit it out…. and the Word will NOT be WITH that man.

That is called “TASTING”… “Not Salvation”

Once a man consumes… “EATS” the Word of God… Forever The Lord God Shall be WITH that man… “IS Salvation”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[ScottA]

The verse I cited in the OP, which verse you were to be responding to, and which you quoted, saying, "Paul went out from among John", was 1 John 2:18,19--you are free to admit you erred, though I doubt you will.

Unless you repent and admit your error, or somehow prove that you were not applying 1 Jn 2:18,19 to Paul (which, given the context, as explained, I don't see how that could be), this is my last comment to you on the issue here in this thread.

Bla bla bla--YOU DIDN'T QUOTE ME CORRECTLY--now you doubledown on your false witness. A double portion to you then, according to your own measure!

So be it.

 

[GracePeace]

Men can hear, believe Gods Word…
And keep it… and the Word will be WITH that man.
Or
Spit it out…. and the Word will NOT be WITH that man.

That is called “TASTING”… “Not Salvation”

Once a man consumes… “EATS” the Word of God… Forever The Lord God Shall be WITH that man… “IS Salvation”.

Glory to God,
Taken

I can't accept that :
1. John warns the "little children" "remain in Him", warning them with the same warning of the branches that get cut off if they don't (Jn 15 ; 1 Jn 2:28).
2. Your "take" makes the idea of being blotted out of the Book of Life meaningless. Also, many other passages, which I don't necessarily want to go in to, because I wanted to focus on the verses in question.

 

[bdavidc]

Branches / disciples / "little children" who don't abide are cut off and are thrown in the fire ; accordingly, John warns the children "abide in Him" in order that they might not draw back in shame at His return.

Some statements John makes ("does not go on sinning") are specifically against Gnostic teaching. Gnostics taught that the material world is evil, and, as corollaries of that position, 1) contrary to the teachings of the Apostles, Christians will continue in gross sins (eg, they engaged in sexual depravities), and 2) because Christ is holy, He had not incarnated (hence, "what ever spirit confesses Christ is come in the flesh is of God"). Therefore, we differ on the significance of the verse.

John never limits his statements to refuting Gnosticism alone. He speaks universally and pastorally, grounding everything in new birth, not polemics. The text says what it says.

John states plainly that those who departed “were not of us” ~1 John 2:19. He does not say they were once alive and then cut off. He says their departure revealed what they always were. Exposure, not loss.

Likewise in John 15, Jesus does not describe living branches losing life. He describes branches that do not abide and are burned. Scripture is clear elsewhere that life is not temporary. Jesus says, “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” ~John 5:24. Everlasting life is not probationary life.

When John says “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” ~1 John 3:9, he grounds this in God’s seed remaining. That is not merely ethical correction. It is ontological. Something has happened. A new nature has been given.

Yes, John refutes false teaching about Christ’s incarnation. But he does so by appealing to the fruit of regeneration, not by redefining salvation as something maintained by abiding. Abiding is the evidence of life, not the cause of it. Scripture never says abiding keeps someone saved. Scripture says those who are born of God endure.

Warnings are real. Fire is real. But Scripture consistently teaches that fire consumes dead wood, not living trees. The Bible does not teach regenerate people becoming unregenerate. If it did, it would contradict itself.

The issue remains what Scripture says, not what later systems try to protect. John’s line is simple and searching: profession can be false, but new birth is not.

 

[Taken]

I can't accept that :

No problem for me.
Tasting is NOT Eating.
Spitting out is not “Eating”.
I can not understand for you.

Heb 6:
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7] For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[8] But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

John 6:
[53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
[54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I inhim.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GracePeace]

John never limits his statements to refuting Gnosticism alone. He speaks universally and pastorally, grounding everything in new birth, not polemics. The text says what it says.

John states plainly that those who departed “were not of us” ~1 John 2:19. He does not say they were once alive and then cut off. He says their departure revealed what they always were. Exposure, not loss.

Nope, Ezekiel 18:24 says God can forget righteousness, so, faith being counted as righteousness, and their having believed having been forgotten, it becomes the case that they never believed.
God blots out sins, forgetting it, but He also blots out righteousness, forgetting it.

Likewise in John 15, Jesus does not describe living branches losing life. He describes branches that do not abide and are burned.

Branches are organic structures that issue from vines. They have to have life to do that. Show me where a dead branch has ever grown out of a tree or a vine. Lol Ridiculous. They once had life, or else they couldn't "dry up"--they'd already be dry.

Scripture is clear elsewhere that life is not temporary. Jesus says, “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” ~John 5:24. Everlasting life is not probationary life.

1 John 5 says the eternal life is located in the Son : whoever does not abide in Him does not retain the life.

When John says “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” ~1 John 3:9, he grounds this in God’s seed remaining. That is not merely ethical correction. It is ontological. Something has happened. A new nature has been given.

It's a debunking of Gnosticism.

Yes, John refutes false teaching about Christ’s incarnation. But he does so by appealing to the fruit of regeneration, not by redefining salvation as something maintained by abiding. Abiding is the evidence of life, not the cause of it. Scripture never says abiding keeps someone saved. Scripture says those who are born of God endure.

No, life is contingent upon abiding : the life is in the Son, and branches that don't abide are thrown in the fire. If you think branches in the fire are still alive, that's on you.

Warnings are real. Fire is real. But Scripture consistently teaches that fire consumes dead wood, not living trees.

The branches have to be dried out beforehand : they had life in them at one point, but, then, lose it.

The Bible does not teach regenerate people becoming unregenerate. If it did, it would contradict itself.

No, rather, you contradict the Bible. Lol

The issue remains what Scripture says, not what later systems try to protect. John’s line is simple and searching: profession can be false, but new birth is not.

"They are no longer His children because of their defect" (Deut 32:5) : your carnal reasoning is irrelevant.

 

[GracePeace]

No problem for me.
Tasting is NOT Eating.
Spitting out is not “Eating”.
I can not understand for you.

Heb 6:
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7] For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[8] But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

John 6:
[53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
[54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I inhim.

Glory to God,
Taken

I believe all those verses, and do not come to your conclusions lol

Thanks anyway!

 

[GracePeace]

John never limits his statements to refuting Gnosticism alone. He speaks universally and pastorally, grounding everything in new birth, not polemics. The text says what it says.

John states plainly that those who departed “were not of us” ~1 John 2:19. He does not say they were once alive and then cut off. He says their departure revealed what they always were. Exposure, not loss.

Likewise in John 15, Jesus does not describe living branches losing life. He describes branches that do not abide and are burned. Scripture is clear elsewhere that life is not temporary. Jesus says, “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” ~John 5:24. Everlasting life is not probationary life.

When John says “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” ~1 John 3:9, he grounds this in God’s seed remaining. That is not merely ethical correction. It is ontological. Something has happened. A new nature has been given.

Yes, John refutes false teaching about Christ’s incarnation. But he does so by appealing to the fruit of regeneration, not by redefining salvation as something maintained by abiding. Abiding is the evidence of life, not the cause of it. Scripture never says abiding keeps someone saved. Scripture says those who are born of God endure.

Warnings are real. Fire is real. But Scripture consistently teaches that fire consumes dead wood, not living trees. The Bible does not teach regenerate people becoming unregenerate. If it did, it would contradict itself.

The issue remains what Scripture says, not what later systems try to protect. John’s line is simple and searching: profession can be false, but new birth is not.

Nope, Ezekiel 18:24 says God can forget righteousness, so, faith being counted as righteousness, and their having believed having been forgotten, it becomes the case that they never believed.
God blots out sins, forgetting it, but He also blots out righteousness, forgetting it.

Branches are organic structures that issue from vines. They have to have life to do that. Show me where a dead branch has ever grown out of a tree or a vine. Lol Ridiculous. They once had life, or else they couldn't "dry up"--they'd already be dry.

1 John 5 says the eternal life is located in the Son : whoever does not abide in Him does not retain the life.

It's a debunking of Gnosticism.

No, life is contingent upon abiding : the life is in the Son, and branches that don't abide are thrown in the fire. If you think branches in the fire are still alive, that's on you.

The branches have to be dried out beforehand : they had life in them at one point, but, then, lose it.

No, rather, you contradict the Bible. Lol

"They are no longer His children because of their defect" (Deut 32:5) : your carnal reasoning is irrelevant.

Anyway, I don't want to get off topic. If you want to discuss OSAS / NOSAS, please join another thread--maybe one of mine.

 

[Button]

John teaches "if they were of us, they would have continued with us", which someone could argue necessarily follows from, "I will lose none, but will raise them up on the last day", but, also, Jesus says disciples who do not abide (by faith in the Name of God's Son and by walking in love 1 John 3:23,24) are cut off, dry up, and are thrown in the fire, and John says this teaching applies to God's children (1 John 2:28), warning them that if they do not abide in Christ they will draw back in shame at His return.

So, on one hand, John seemingly allows for the possibility that the children might not remain, warning them of the consequences of not remaining, but, on the other hand, John seemingly disallows that anyone who is born of God might not remain, because if they are of "us", they will remain, and not "went out from among us" (1 John 2:19). (I'm not sure if this might be related to "I will in no wise cast them out.")

For me, the teaching tells us thatall whom God gives to understanding the teachings of Jesus will not ever be.lost to him.

 

[GracePeace]

For me, the teaching tells us thatall whom God gives to understanding the teachings of Jesus will not ever be.lost to him.

If only that verse was there, I might agree, but He also says some branches don't abide, so they're.cut off and are thrown in the fire, so I was having difficulty.

 

[Button]

If only that verse was there, I might agree, but He also says some branches don't abide, so they're.cut off and are thrown in the fire, so I was having difficulty.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

 

[GracePeace]

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Yeah, He also says branches that don't abide get cut off, so I was having difficulty.

John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Yeah, and 1 Jn 5 says "this [eternal] life is in His Son", and, if you take into consideration that abiding in Him (where the life is) isn't automatic, nor assumed (otherwise, John wouldn't have commanded "little children abide in Him" 1 Jn 2:18), if one does not remain, then they are no longer in that location where the life is, so they don't / won't continue to have it.

 

[Button]

Yeah, He also says branches that don't abide get cut off, so I was having difficulty.

I think if we look at the teaching as a tree metaphore it is easier to understand.
Branches that die are not receiving the nutrients needed when they are part of the tree.
I have trees around my house. Now and then there will be a dry leafeless branch that breaks off rather easily under slight pressure.

I think the branch parable Jesus used was telling us that those who are not in Christ, are not nourished by the life giving spirit of Christ within , will break away.

They will hunger for something else. Because the bread and water of life doesn't sustain them as they feel they need to be.

Yeah, and 1 Jn 5 says "this [eternal] life is in His Son", and, if you take into consideration that abiding in Him (where the life is) isn't automatic, nor assumed (otherwise, John wouldn't have commanded "little children abide in Him" 1 Jn 2:18), if one does not remain, then they are no longer in that location where the life is, so they don't / won't continue to have it.

I think we can read Johns remark about abiding in him as a statement. Rather than only a command or directive.

I think if God gives us to Christ and Christ says he will lose none of us , he knows our seal is eternal. Because our former self is no longer there to return to.
Jesus said he will never cast us out.

We were a sinner before Jesus called us home. I don't think there is anything we can do so to lose what God gifted to us out of his grace that he showed us.

If that wasn't of ourselves,as God says, I don't think it is of ourself to revoke a gift we were given. Rather than labored to deserve.

 

[GracePeace]

I think if we look at the teaching as a tree metaphore it is easier to understand.
Branches that die are not receiving the nutrients needed when they are part of the tree.
I have trees around my house. Now and then there will be a dry leafeless branch that breaks off rather easily under slight pressure.

I think the branch parable Jesus used was telling us that those who are not in Christ, are not nourished by the life giving spirit of Christ within , will break away.

They will hunger for something else. Because the bread and water of life doesn't sustain them as they feel they need to be.

Many things could be said--like how a dead branch never issues from a tree, but only a living branch, and, later, it may stop receiving the substance that is only found in the tree, so it may be removed--but it is important to recognize, here, that the warning to "abide", taught by Jesus in Jn 15, is applied, by John, to "little children" (1 Jn 2:28), thus we can conclude that this picture in John 15 regards the "born again". I would think I would be being dishonest if I went out of my way to intsntionall ignore and suppress such an obvious connection.

I think we can read Johns remark about abiding in him as a statement. Rather than only a command or directive.

Well, when John says there are two potential outcomes--either you'll have confidence toward God, or you'll draw back in shame at His appearing--that correspond to the little children's choices to either remain or to not remain, that prevents me from concluding as you do. Also, unequivocally, "abide in Him" is a command.

I think if God gives us to Christ and Christ says he will lose none of us , he knows our seal is eternal. Because our former self is no longer there to return to.
Jesus said he will never cast us out.

We were a sinner before Jesus called us home. I don't think there is anything we can do so to lose what God gifted to us out of his grace that he showed us.

In Revelation 3, Christ says "because you have kept My Word, I will keep you" : couldn't it be that, yes, Christ will lose none, inasmuch as Christ is the Word (made flesh), and, so, yes, those who keep the Word will be kept by the Word (Christ) without fail, but those who do not persevere in keeping the Word, who do not remain in Him, will be cut off and thrown in the fire?

If that wasn't of ourselves,as God says, I don't think it is of ourself to revoke a gift we were given. Rather than labored to deserve.

Adam had everything as a gift, and lost it by his own doing.

 

[Button]

Many things could be said--like how a dead branch never issues from a tree, but only a living branch, and, later, it may stop receiving the substance that is only found in the tree, so it may be removed--but it is important to recognize, here, that the warning to "abide", taught by Jesus in Jn 15, is applied, by John, to "little children" (1 Jn 2:28), thus we can conclude that this picture in John 15 regards the "born again". I would think I would be being dishonest if I went out of my way to intsntionall ignore and suppress such an obvious connection.

Well, when John says there are two potential outcomes--either you'll have confidence toward God, or you'll draw back in shame at His appearing--that correspond to the little children's choices to either remain or to not remain, that prevents me from concluding as you do. Also, unequivocally, "abide in Him" is a command.

In Revelation 3, Christ says "because you have kept My Word, I will keep you" : couldn't it be that, yes, Christ will lose none, inasmuch as Christ is the Word (made flesh), and, so, yes, those who keep the Word will be kept by the Word (Christ) without fail, but those who do not persevere in keeping the Word, who do not remain in Him, will be cut off and thrown in the fire?

Adam had everything as a gift, and lost it by his own doing.

I don't think I can hope to convince someone who thinks Salvation is impermanent and something to be worked for so to keep it, that they are mistaken.

Therefore,I wish you the best God has to bless you with.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't think I can hope to convince someone who thinks Salvation is impermanent and something to be worked for so to keep it, that they are mistaken.

Therefore,I wish you the best God has to bless you with.

Thanks

 

[Wick Stick]

A person in sincerity accepts Christ as their saviour. They desire to surrender their life to him. God knows that, he will keep them safe, and they will not be lost

Salvation depends on agreeing with God, which requires that desire for surrender, but also to hear God so that they may agree and obey Him.

A young person is forced to go to church by their parents, they make some friends there who are all committed christians, they don't want to be the odd one out so on that basis they too make a commitment to God but it is obviously a shallow one. Will God place them 'officially' in a saved state? Yes.

That doesn't seem like a given to me.

But when the time of testing comes, because of their shallow commitment they stop believing and walk away(Luke8:13) Hence there are biblical assurances, and also warnings

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

Seems relevant