Some Serious Thoughts about Adam and Eve in the Garden

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Asyncritus

New Member
Sep 8, 2013
52
2
0
Imagination is essential to any kind of good Bible study. The following is an imaginative reconstruction of the Transgression in Eden, and an attempt to figure out what the place was like.
Far too many people regard the garden of Eden Story as a fairy tale. But Jesus didn’t, and that alone should settle the question for anyone who calls him or herself a disciple of His. Paul the Apostle certainly regarded the story as truth, and the great Book of Revelation, despite its complexities does so too. Far be it, then, for us, humble students of His Word, to depart from that position. It just isn’t good enough.

I have carefully studied the early chapters of Genesis over many years, and here are my conclusions. You will see that it is earth-shakingly different to the usual versions, if only for one reason: it lays the blame for the whole disaster where it belongs, at Adam’s door. The New Testament does just this, and we take that very carefully into account.

The Temptation in Eden

Coming as it does, at the beginning of all things, the temptation of Adam and Eve raises some extremely important questions, whose answers are all readily available in the New Testament. Believing as I do, that all Scripture is infallibly inspired by God, I make the assumption that comments in the NT on passages in the Old are correct, and valuable beyond price to our understanding of things. If we are inattentive to what it says, we are immeasurably the losers.

The first problem arises when we consider Romans 5, where remarkably, no fewer than 10 times, repeat, 10 times, the statement is made and extended that ‘by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin’.


12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

As we all know, Eve sinned first, by eating of the Tree, so how could Adam be said - no, flatly asserted - to be, the one by whom sin entered into the world? The common or garden explanation is that he ate of the fruit because he loved his wife, and was prepared to die with her. That he really hated her will be shown in what follows here.

The second problem arises from an observation to which no one seems to attach any importance at all. That observation is simply this: the serpent was in the Garden.

Doesn’t seem like much – until we ask, a. and b. How did it get in there? What was it doing in there?

The tasks given to Adam were two-fold.

“And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.” (Ge 2:15-16 AV)

First, he is to dress it: i.e. act as a gardener: weed, prune the trees, make sure the irrigation channels were open, pick up dead fruit, leaves etc etc. When we consider the fact that the Garden was probably the size of Jerusalem, and probably on the same site, you begin to see the size of this task.

Second, and very oddly, he is to ‘keep it’: the Hebrew is used of ‘to act as a watchman.’ Watchman? Against what? Well, if a herd of elephants decided to take a canter through the Garden, there wouldn’t be very much garden left, so he had to keep unwanted beasts out. Makes the task even bigger. While he was dressing the garden, he couldn’t be keeping it, and vice versa. So the Lord God made Eve, an help meet for him – he needed the assistance.

Therefore, I infer that Adam had the power to include, or exclude, any animals he saw fit. For example, I imagine that if he had to mow a lawn, say, he would whistle up a herd of goats or whatever to eat the grass at the required spot. Probably telepathy or something like it.


The second inference is an ugly one. The serpent was in the Garden because of one of these three things – no other possibilities occur to me.
[SIZE=12pt]a. Adam wanted it in and/or
b. Adam invited it or ordered it in and/or
c. Adam, when it was in, didn’t see fit to evict it.

The concept that God placed it there is abhorrent to me. Would you, having just planted up the most beautiful Garden conceivable, put a dirty great serpent, which may or may not have been a dangerous animal, in the middle of if? Certainly not – and absolutely not in order to tempt them. That is a ghastly idea, and Adam would certainly have picked up on it when he had to answer for his misdemeanour. “The serpent you put in here to tempt me, tempted me. So why are you blaming me?”

Making the reasonable assumption that Adam invited or ordered it in, we now inquire “Why did he do so?”
[/SIZE]



We are faced with the extraordinary picture now, of the serpent on the Tree. How comes it that it is on/by this most special Tree of all? (I get the impression that it was on the Tree in all this incident.)

The answer comes from the observation that the animal, for so it was, could talk. No serpent before or since has ever been able to do so: and this leads me to the supposition that something extraordinary had happened to this particular beast. But what? I suggest that it had eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Only this supposition explains all the facts. Consider:

1 The animal could talk, and is more subtil (smart, wise) than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. How did this happen? Serpents aren’t discernibly smarter than other animals nowadays. Eating of the Tree explains this easily enough. The fruit clearly had unusual properties, as witness the effect on Adam and Eve, but since serpent physiologies were different, the effects were different too.

2 “When the woman saw that the tree was pleasant to the eyes, and good for food, and to be desired to make one wise, she took…” This is a very peculiar part of the whole transaction. So far she had been under the impression that if she ate of the Tree, or even touched it, she would die: and those instructions, she said, were from God Himself. If that is the case then what made her change her mind? Feminine curiosity? Inquisitiveness? Surely not. Not when her life might be at stake.

Look at it like this: Professor Linus Pauling, twice a Nobel-Prize winning laureate, says to you, a green undergraduate in his laboratory… “If you drink from that bottle, you will certainly die. Don’t do it!!!” Tell me, what could possibly convince you to drink from that bottle? He has never been wrong yet, so what would make you drink of that? I can hardly think of any circumstance save one that would make me do so.

But suppose I saw another student drink of it, and not only did he not die, but he obtained superpowers (such as the ability to fly) that I wanted, I would do so then. I think that is a fair assumption. Therefore I suggest that if Eve saw that the serpent was eating of the fruit, and not only surviving, but becoming able to talk, and be subtil, then there was a serious possibility that she would do it – and she did.


Adam was standing right there: (“..she gave to her husband with her and he did eat…”). Why did he not, on hearing all this, pick up a stick or something, and break the serpent’s back with it – or at least chase it out of the garden?

And why did he not say to Eve, “…you just touch that tree Eve, and I promise you won’t sit down for a month!!!” ?

He did neither of these things. Why not? A further indication that he was there lies in the serpent’s statement : “…ye shall not surely die” which is perfectly natural if it was talking to both of them, but less so if it wasn’t. Nor is it unreasonable to suppose that since Adam was the Keeper of the Garden, he would have kept a special eye on this most special of all Trees.

The whole thing makes very little sense until the New Testament sheds light on the incident, but it in a quite unexpected way.




[SIZE=12pt]The apostle makes a gigantic contrast between the Lord Jesus’ actions, and Adam’s in Philippians 2. The relevant words are: “Who being in the form of God (as Adam was in God’s image and likeness) thought equality with God (RV) (Ye shall be as gods..) not a thing to be grasped (RVm)…”

This passage shows clearly that it was equality with God that was being ‘snatched’ here. That was the real offence. It wasn’t the beauty of the tree or its fruit: there were plenty of other trees that were ‘pleasant to the eyes’ – in fact, all of them in the Garden were. It wasn’t the fact that it was ‘good for food’: they had enough of that elsewhere. It was the third element that was important: to be equal with God. None of the other trees could confer that one thing. And that was the thing that Adam snatched at.

The second comment by the apostle on the incident is in 1 Timothy, where he states, again unequivocally, that “Adam was not deceived.” In other words, what he did, he did with malice aforethought. He disobeyed God wilfully. It will not do to say it was because of his love for Eve that he did this: the proper course of action would have been to do as the Lord Jesus did: to say to God “Lord, she has sinned. Slay me instead.” Adam didn’t – not because he wasn’t bright enough to figure that one out, but for another, very dangerous reason.
[/SIZE]



[SIZE=12pt]It is appropriate to point out here that there is a Law of Physics which states the every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The magnitude of the offence in God’s eyes, is demonstrated by the magnitude of the consequences. The Law of Moses is full of examples of this. The consequences of that sin, in terms of pain and suffering and death have been incalculable. Therefore, this was the greatest sin ever committed in the history of mankind. Hitler, Mussolini, Attila, Saddam Hussain were all kindergarten kids by comparison. Hitler managed to murder six million Jews. Adam killed the whole world. By this, we can assess the magnitude and nature of that sin.

How can eating the fruit of a tree possibly be regarded by a just God as sufficiently heinous to warrant the consequences that have flowed from there? If someone climbed over the fence at night and stole your prize grapes or something, would you, as a judge passing sentence, have him, his wife and every last one of his children and grandchildren executed? For the next n generations? No, there has got to be more here than meets the eye. Just why did God regard this act as the most appalling in the history of the world?

The key was given above. It was because Adam grasped/snatched at equality with God. But how, and just as important, why?
[/SIZE]


The Answer

The first thing that Adam heard, on opening his eyes for the first time was this:
“ And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” (Ge 1:28 AV)

Adam, in other words, was to be the Lord of the planet, filling it with his descendants, subduing it to his will, having dominion over all life on the planet. He was ‘a little lower than the angels’ so the height of his exaltation was not inconsiderable. And yet, here he was in this place, pulling weeds, picking up dead leaves and fruit and thoroughly menial it all was too. A gardener. And a man of such intellect too! Naming all the animals that were brought to him require taxonomic abilities and vocabulary of a very high order indeed.

He wanted to be like God – the Lord of all creation. He wanted the fulfilment of that prophecy, spoken at his ‘birth’ to be fulfilled NOW. His pride got hold of him, and his attitude stank. Listen to this, spoken after the creation of Eve:

“ And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” (Ge 2:23 AV)
Do you hear a word of thankfulness to God for His consideration for him? Is there a prayer of rejoicing there? Not a vestige. He had walked and talked with angels, so why be beholden to them? It was his body that that taken the knock, not theirs. She had come from him, and he barely avoids taking the total credit for her creation. Extraordinary ingratitude is a fair summary here, I think, verging on the insolent.

So just how was he going to fulfil that prophecy and become the Lord of all creation? Certainly not by pulling weeds! There was only one thing for it – God had said, don’t eat of that tree. Why not? he asked himself. Why, because if he ate of it, he would become like God Himself, and God didn’t want that now, did He? Hmmmmm. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God must know good and evil – and He wants to keep it from me. Hmmmm. Let me try it.

There was a problem.


God said, that if I eat of the Tree, I will surely die. He’s never wrong. So what do I do? Why, let’s conduct a little experiment. A little animal experiment. Let’s see what happens to a serpent. He calls up the serpent, and makes it eat of the Tree.

Lo and behold, the experiment worked. It didn’t die, and better still, it gained the power of speech.

I think, you see, that there is a very large grain of truth in these speculations. I think that Adam now spoke to the serpent on one or two occasions, and communicated all of his thought processes out loud to the animal, which soaks it up and later regurgitates the material.

Have you ever noticed that the first words to Eve are ‘Yea, hath God said…?’ This is not the start of a conversation, it is the continuation of one, and we are not told with whom. Eve sounds totally surprised by the question and gives the absolutely correct answer – because it was the only one she knew. She shows no surprise at the fact that the serpent is there on the Tree: which indicates that it had been there before. What she didn’t know was where it was all going, and that she herself was in extreme danger.

As I said before, as far as she knew, and as far as Adam knew, this was a lethal fruit. Adam was standing right there ‘with her’ as I have pointed out – and he doesn’t say a word to stop her. This is impossible to understand, except on the supposition that he had passed the animal experiment stage, and now needed a human subject. Which human subject? Not he himself. Oh no. That was too dangerous. So who then? Eve, of course. If she died, so what? The Tree of Life was standing right there. That might save her. And in any case, he had other ribs.

In case you think this is too far fetched, listen to what the Lord said: “Ye are of your father the devil. He was a murderer from the beginning…” I used to think that He was talking about Cain, but in the light of the foregoing, it is pretty obvious that He was talking about Adam.


Adam was willing to let Eve administer that poison to herself, and say nothing. Adam had let the serpent in. Adam had filled it full of guff. And now Adam was willing to let her die – all in his pursuit of equality with God. He didn’t love her – he hated her. He was a murderer, right from the beginning – and he ended by successfully murdering the world.

Isn’t it interesting, too, that he points to Adam as their father, and names him as ‘the devil’ – and so significantly in this context, the ‘false accuser’ – of God!!!
 

Angelina

Prayer Warrior
Staff member
Admin
Feb 4, 2011
37,123
15,099
113
New Zealand
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Hi Asyn and welcome

1 Timothy is the only place in the NT that actually says the woman was deceived. Everywhere else fault clearly lands on Adam ergo; one man, Adam's sin etc. The reason why I believe that the bible blames Adam is because God created Adam first and he gave Adam the command about the tree, then he created Eve.

Genesis 2
16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

What Eve quoted to the serpent came directly from her husband...because no-where in the bible does it say that God then told Eve not to eat of the fruit of that tree...Genesis 3:2

Also note the serpent in Genesis 3
Now the serpent was more crafty [H6175] than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made...
H6175 ‛ârûm - crafty
Passive participle of H6191; cunning (usually in a bad sense): - crafty, prudent, subtil

Why would God create a beast of the field crafty when Adam and Eve were not capable of detecting good or bad motive prior to eating the forbidden fruit? Craftiness is not an attribute of God...He is not subtle at all, he is bold and forthright when he speaks Adam knew what he meant...

I believe that the serpent had already fallen at this point ... :huh: JMHO

Bless you!
 

ezekiel

Member
Aug 14, 2013
272
10
18
Faith
Country
United States
Deuteronomy 24:16 - The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

now adam sin and if the words of many and what they think is true then this is false words above, but then if the above is true then enoch walked with god and was taken being the 7 from adam so enoch would have died but surely thru adam sin came into the world for the angels were cast out of heaven and born of flesh what will you say when in front of the most high it was the sin of adam or it was that woman. why is it that when one is born he dies ? check the odds ? surelly all have sin for you have been born of the flesh make lower then the angels besides i study the words of the most high we should feed the poor so what is that fruit a apple ? how has pride entered into us that we are the only ones and we are his only creation have not we been decieved from the beginning or have we always have known the truth. he has decieved you before and still today ok you tell me why is it that the most high is thoughtful of man ? has pauls teaching different in some aspects ? is revelation new or have all the old prophets told you before ?
 

Asyncritus

New Member
Sep 8, 2013
52
2
0
Why would God create a beast of the field crafty when Adam and Eve were not capable of detecting good or bad motive prior to eating the forbidden fruit? Craftiness is not an attribute of God...He is not subtle at all, he is bold and forthright when he speaks Adam knew what he meant...

I believe that the serpent had already fallen at this point ... :huh: JMHO
How could a serpent fall? It has no moral sense, and cannot be guilty of murder. (Jesus: 'He was a murderer from the beginning' Notice too, the murderer is described as 'he'. A beast can only be described as an 'it')

Manslaughter, maybe, as the bull that gored someone had to be killed under the Law:

But it had no moral sense, and couldn't have any moral sense.

And there's the additional point, that if the serpent was a sinner ALREADY, then it was by one serpent that sin entered the world!

That doesn't square with the NT, does it?


ezekiel said:
Deuteronomy 24:16 - The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

now adam sin and if the words of many and what they think is true then this is false words above, but then if the above is true then enoch walked with god and was taken being the 7 from adam so enoch would have died but surely thru adam sin came into the world for the angels were cast out of heaven and born of flesh what will you say when in front of the most high it was the sin of adam or it was that woman. why is it that when one is born he dies ? check the odds ? surelly all have sin for you have been born of the flesh make lower then the angels besides i study the words of the most high we should feed the poor so what is that fruit a apple ? how has pride entered into us that we are the only ones and we are his only creation have not we been decieved from the beginning or have we always have known the truth. he has decieved you before and still today ok you tell me why is it that the most high is thoughtful of man ? has pauls teaching different in some aspects ? is revelation new or have all the old prophets told you before ?
Hi Ezekiel

I'm having great problems figuring out what you mean. Can you say it a bit more simply for me?

Thx.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Sorry, but the OP is versed too deeply in a fleshy understanding of the events in God's Eden, not taking into account several relevant Bible Scriptures, or just giving bits and pieces to support a fleshy cause.
1 Tim 2:12-15
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
(KJV)



Apostle Paul revealed that the particular transgression was Eve's. So how was the sin imparted to Adam also? Most likely because Adam was put in authority over the woman and allowed it. That's a particular relevance Paul gives there in context of that Scripture that Adam was formed first, and then Eve.

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)


That title in bold there is another title for the devil, Satan. How does that change the whole picture of a fleshy interpretation of the Eden events? It means the serpent in Genesis was NOT a literal snake! It was Satan himself.

What Bible Scripture as a whole points to about the Genesis events in the Garden of Eden is called a EUPHEMISM.

One could also call it an allegory, or parable, etc. But a euphemism is the use of a mild expression substituted for a much more harsh or difficult to explain event. Like a little child who's father dies and asks where he is, and the child is told he is in Heaven, or passed on to be with Jesus, etc., instead of a blunt explanation like, "your father is dead and isn't coming back."

All I see with posts like this OP is just another vain attempt to get away from the subject of how it was that Satan was there in Eden already in his role as temptor when God showed in a parable in Ezekiel 28 how He originally created Satan perfect in his ways as the anointed cherub that covereth. In other words, Satan had already rebelled against God PRIOR to Adam and Eve in God's Garden, and that's how he was there later in Eden with tempting Adam and Eve. Thus the real first 'fall' into sin was not by Adam and Eve, but by the devil himself. Proof?

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)


That portion of Scripture in bold above is when Satan originally rebelled against God in the world of old, and he drew one third of the angels into rebellioin with him. Given WITHIN that timing is that beast kingdom of "seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads." In contrast, the beast kingdom for the end of this world is not mentioned until the next chapter of Rev.13, and it is to have ten crowns instead of this one that had only seven which Satan originally rebelled against God with.
 

Asyncritus

New Member
Sep 8, 2013
52
2
0
veteran said:
Sorry, but the OP is versed too deeply in a fleshy understanding of the events in God's Eden, not taking into account several relevant Bible Scriptures, or just giving bits and pieces to support a fleshy cause.
1 Tim 2:12-15
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
(KJV)


Apostle Paul revealed that the particular transgression was Eve's. So how was the sin imparted to Adam also? Most likely because Adam was put in authority over the woman and allowed it. That's a particular relevance Paul gives there in context of that Scripture that Adam was formed first, and then Eve.
Paul is saying the exact opposite of what you're saying veteran. Eve was deceived: ADAM WAS NOT. Therefore, he acted deliberately, and with malice aforethought. Therefore, the lesser sin was hers, and his was the greater.


Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)


That title in bold there is another title for the devil, Satan. How does that change the whole picture of a fleshy interpretation of the Eden events? It means the serpent in Genesis was NOT a literal snake! It was Satan himself.
There are 2 serious problems with that view.

First, Paul thought it was a serpent:

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Second, there is the little matter of chronology.

Revelation 12 was written somewhere between AD60 and AD90, and as ch 1: 1 says,

1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Therefore, the events in ch 12, HAD NOT HAPPENED AS YET, at the time John was writing this.

Therefore, this could not be referring to Gen 2 -3, which had happened centuries before AD 60 -90.

Third, this is a highly symbolic book as a whole, and not to be taken literally.

If you try to take it literally, you land in an awful lot of difficulties.: for example, what great red dragon, was this? How could its tail drag one third of the stars to the earth? (If a single star hit the earth, then that it. Finish, planet earth)

So your interpretation has grave problems with it. How do you get past these?



All I see with posts like this OP is just another vain attempt to get away from the subject of how it was that Satan was there in Eden already in his role as temptor when God showed in a parable in Ezekiel 28 how He originally created Satan perfect in his ways as the anointed cherub that covereth. In other words, Satan had already rebelled against God PRIOR to Adam and Eve in God's Garden, and that's how he was there later in Eden with tempting Adam and Eve. Thus the real first 'fall' into sin was not by Adam and Eve, but by the devil himself. Proof?

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)


That portion of Scripture in bold above is when Satan originally rebelled against God in the world of old, and he drew one third of the angels into rebellioin with him. Given WITHIN that timing is that beast kingdom of "seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads." In contrast, the beast kingdom for the end of this world is not mentioned until the next chapter of Rev.13, and it is to have ten crowns instead of this one that had only seven which Satan originally rebelled against God with.
This also suffers from the chronology problem, and introduces quite another.

How is it the Paul could say: By ONE MAN sin entered into the world?

The minute the devil set foot on the planet, sin entered the world., and the devil, you're saying, is not a man. Is he?

Paul should have said: by one angel/ devil/ whatever, sin entered the world. But he didn't. It is by one MAN. Nothing else.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Asyncritus said:
Paul is saying the exact opposite of what you're saying veteran. Eve was deceived: ADAM WAS NOT. Therefore, he acted deliberately, and with malice aforethought. Therefore, the lesser sin was hers, and his was the greater.
Your words DO NOT agree with Apostle Paul there. It is YOUR words which are OPPOSITE of Paul's.

I agree with what Paul said, which was what? Paul said Adam was NOT deceived, but it was Eve that was deceived and in the transgression. That means... Adam's sin involved something different than Eve's.
Asyncritus said:
There are 2 serious problems with that view.



First, Paul thought it was a serpent:

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
How ignorant can one get? You say that just to try and win an argument instead of heeding Christ's Own explanation of Rev.12:9 for who "that old serpent" really was in Eden? I'm really trying... to be nice here. Biblical Fact: "that old serpent" = Satan, the devil, ACCORDING TO OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST! What will you say next? Will you throw away Christ's Words in favor of supposing what Apostle Paul thought about that serpent?
Asyncritus said:
Second, there is the little matter of chronology.



Revelation 12 was written somewhere between AD60 and AD90, and as ch 1: 1 says,

1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Therefore, the events in ch 12, HAD NOT HAPPENED AS YET, at the time John was writing this.

Therefore, this could not be referring to Gen 2 -3, which had happened centuries before AD 60 -90.
Of course the Rev.12:7-17 events are still... yet to happen, today even. No chronological requirement there for Christ Jesus revealing that Satan was "that old serpent" in God's Garden. Your attempt at that won't work.
Asyncritus said:
Third, this is a highly symbolic book as a whole, and not to be taken literally.



If you try to take it literally, you land in an awful lot of difficulties.: for example, what great red dragon, was this? How could its tail drag one third of the stars to the earth? (If a single star hit the earth, then that it. Finish, planet earth)

So your interpretation has grave problems with it. How do you get past these?
Of course Christ's Book of Revelation has many symbols and allegories in it, just as do all the Old Testament Books of God's prophets. No mystery there. But just who... is taking the 'serpent' of Genesis LITERALLY? You are for one. And it's amazing... absolutely amazing... that you cannot fathom how Christ gave a direct explanation of who "that old serpent" in Eden really was, i.e., Satan himself!!! You simply need a whole lot more Bible study.
Asyncritus said:
If you try to take it literally, you land in an awful lot of difficulties.: for example, what great red dragon, was this? How could its tail drag one third of the stars to the earth? (If a single star hit the earth, then that it. Finish, planet earth)



So your interpretation has grave problems with it. How do you get past these?
I can guarantee you, the difficulty is all... yours! The dragon is simply another title for Satan also, just as "that old serpent" is too. Satan has many titles within God's Word. It's quite obvious you were not paying attention to the Rev.12:9 verse as written...

Rev 12:9
9 And
the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)



I might could understand the problem you're having with simple English if English is not your primary langauge. But I'm inclined to think it's not the problem with your understanding.
Asyncritus said:
This also suffers from the chronology problem, and introduces quite another.



How is it the Paul could say: By ONE MAN sin entered into the world?

The minute the devil set foot on the planet, sin entered the world., and the devil, you're saying, is not a man. Is he?

Paul should have said: by one angel/ devil/ whatever, sin entered the world. But he didn't. It is by one MAN. Nothing else.
You start off remarking about the Rev.12:3-4 verses then change the topic to Adam's sin. Need to make your mind up.

The devil has the image of man just as all the angels do, since the image of man comes from our Heavenly Father Himself.

The Rev.12:3-4 verses are about Satan's beast kingdom of old when he first rebelled against God, which is WHY... it is being given within the phrase about drawing a third of the angels ("stars") into rebellion with him. That happened PRIOR to Adam and Eve in God's Garden. So you FAILED to even address the relevant Scripture you quoted. Game over.
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, Eve ate from "tree of knowledge of good and bad" before Adam.(Gen 3:1-6) Why though did the "serpent" (who is later identified as Satan, a former spirit "son of God" or angel at Revelation 12:9) choose Eve and not Adam ? Simply put, because Eve was the "weaker vessel" (1 Pet 3:7), more easily swayed than Adam, for a woman thinks more with her emotions whereas a man more with his head; a woman is more influenced by what she hears and a man more by what he sees.(see Matt 5:28)


The apostle Paul wrote: "Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression."(1 Tim 2:14) He further wrote to the Corinthians: "I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and chastity that are due the Christ."(2 Cor 11:3)

The "serpent" or Satan quickly recognized that Eve was a better target for his insurrection against Jehovah God than Adam, easy for seduction and in which he wanted to receive the worship due to Jehovah.(compare Luke 4:7)


By reason of Adam as the head is he responsible for his family. The apostle Paul wrote: "But I want you to know that the head of the man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."(1 Cor 11:3)


Just as Christ Jesus has a head - God - so likewise does the woman in a household - the man. He is responsible for the decisions made and for overseeing the running of the home. Because Adam ate some of the fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad", instead of correcting Eve (and God could have made for him another mate), Jehovah held him responsible for abdicating his husbandly authority.


Adam had no intent of dying for Eve, for otherwise he would have not of "passed the buck" (as Eve also did, Gen 3:13) and condemned Eve and in effect, blamed God for giving her to him.(Gen 3:12) Adam did not accept his guilt in this rebellion, but instead tried to push his wrong off on Eve.


And Adam was not to act as a "watchman" of the Garden of Eden, but the Hebrew word used at Genesis 2:15 is shammar that can mean to "attend to" or take care of. In addition, the Hebrew word 'abad is also used that means "to work".

Hence, a modern English translation reads accurately at Genesis 2:15: "And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it (Hebrew 'abad ) and to take care of it."(Hebrew shammar, New World Translation)


At Genesis 1:28, it identifies the blessing given to Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth." Thence, Adam and Eve were to multiply and with their descendants, was to "cultivate" the earth, following the pattern as set by Jehovah in the garden of Eden, extending the Edenic paradise to the ends of the earth.


However, did Adam's sin or rebellion in the garden of Eden change God's purpose for the earth ? No. Isaiah 45 says: "For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited."(Isa 45:18) Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount: "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."(Matt 5:5, KJV) From where was Jesus quoting ? From what David was inspired to write at Psalms 37:11.


When Jesus was hanging on the torture stake, one of the two evil-doers asked him to remember him when he got into his kingdom, and in which Jesus responded: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise."(Luke 23:43) Jesus thus promised the evil-doer that he would resurrect him from the dead to an earthly paradise (John 5:28, 29; Rev 20:13), whereby he would have the opportunity of coming to know and love our Creator, Jehovah God and have the prospect of living forever on the earth that has been transformed into a "garden of pleasure" during Jesus millennial reign.(The Hebrew word Eden means "pleasure" or a garden of pleasure)
 

Asyncritus

New Member
Sep 8, 2013
52
2
0
Guestman said:
Yes, Eve ate from "tree of knowledge of good and bad" before Adam.(Gen 3:1-6) Why though did the "serpent" (who is later identified as Satan, a former spirit "son of God" or angel at Revelation 12:9) choose Eve and not Adam ? Simply put, because Eve was the "weaker vessel" (1 Pet 3:7), more easily swayed than Adam, for a woman thinks more with her emotions whereas a man more with his head; a woman is more influenced by what she hears and a man more by what he sees.(see Matt 5:28)
This is a very demeaning view of Eve. She is the only decent person in the whole sorry business.

Yes, women are described as the 'weaker vessel', but Eve was no fool. She was your mother, as Adam was your father, and if you want to lay claim to being a fool because you're descended from her, then you're welcome to do so.

She knew the score, she knew the death threat was there as witness her words:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Her emotions, curiosity, inquisitiveness or whatever other description you want to put on her, will not make her sufficiently stupid as to eat of that tree which, as far as she knew, and as far as Adam knew, carried the clear death penalty which awaited anyone who ate of that tree.

Would you eat of that tree knowing precisely what God had said? Out if inquisitiveness, curiosity or whatever other frivolous motive you can conceive?

Most unlikely, I would have thought. So why attribute such puerile motives to Eve?



The apostle Paul wrote: "Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression."(1 Tim 2:14) He further wrote to the Corinthians: "I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and chastity that are due the Christ."(2 Cor 11:3)
You fail to draw the correct inference from Paul's words. I've done so above. Eve was deceived. Under the Law of Moses, that would be described as a sin of ignorance, and not worthy of death.

The ringleader, Adam, however, was not ignorant. He was not deceived. He acted in full possession of all the facts. He sinned wilfully, and with malice aforethought.

As I said in the OP, he was the 'murderer from the beginning' that Jesus describes.

Someone standing right there, 'who was with her' who failed to stop her from eating what he knew to be a poisonous fruit, was guilty of culpable homicide. That is what the law says nowadays - and it was no different then, even though it may not have been written down.

I f you disagree with this, then you really need to address those points above:

1 why did he stand there and allow her to eat of the tree which may have killed her

2 How deliberate was his action (in eating), and his inaction (in not stopping her)?

The "serpent" or Satan quickly recognized that Eve was a better target for his insurrection against Jehovah God than Adam, easy for seduction and in which he wanted to receive the worship due to Jehovah.(compare Luke 4:7)
You are adding to the record. Satan is nowhere mentioned in it, and simply because Rev. 12 talks about the old serpent, is no justification to assume that the serpent here in Gen 3 is 'satan'.

If you look through the rest of the Bible at the word 'serpent' you will nowhere find it referring to a 'deceiver' or even an evildoer.
By reason of Adam as the head is he responsible for his family. The apostle Paul wrote: "But I want you to know that the head of the man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."(1 Cor 11:3)

Just as Christ Jesus has a head - God - so likewise does the woman in a household - the man. He is responsible for the decisions made and for overseeing the running of the home. Because Adam ate some of the fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad", instead of correcting Eve (and God could have made for him another mate), Jehovah held him responsible for abdicating his husbandly authority.
Again, under the law, a false prophet was to be killed. The serpent is in effect saying God is a liar - 'you shall not surely die' and therefore is eminently suited to being described as a false prophet. Therefore, Adam, on hearing those words, should have killed it immediately, or driven it out of the garden. He did neither, and we must inquire why.

In accounting for it, we have to take the NT into serious consideration.

First, it says no fewer than 10 times that it was by ONE MAN that sin entered the world. Since Eve ate first, then it follows the Adam sinned BEFORE she did! How could that be?

Jesus says that the fixed intention to have a woman is adultery. I suggest that Adam had the intention fixed in his heart to eat of that tree. and was merely waiting to see its effects on her first. He had allowed the serpent in to eatof it, and was gratified to find that it didn't kill the animal, and conferred the power of spech on it, which was even better.

Second, don't you think it most unlikely that Eve did not look at Adam to see if he approved? He was the head. He was the one who talked to God. He was first.

I'm certain that she did, and finding no active disapproval, she went ahead.

Adam had no intent of dying for Eve, for otherwise he would have not of "passed the buck" (as Eve also did, Gen 3:13) and condemned Eve and in effect, blamed God for giving her to him.(Gen 3:12) Adam did not accept his guilt in this rebellion, but instead tried to push his wrong off on Eve.
This is perfectly correct.

And Adam was not to act as a "watchman" of the Garden of Eden, but the Hebrew word used at Genesis 2:15 is shammar that can mean to "attend to" or take care of. In addition, the Hebrew word 'abad is also used that means "to work".
The Hebrew word 'shamar' (= 'to keep' in the AV) is used in Gen 3.24:

Ge 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

To guard it, in other words, to prevent unlawful and unwanted, and possibly dangerous entry.

Adam had failed in that duty, so he is replaced by the cherubim.

The NWT is inadequate here.

I will deal further with your and veteran's comments on Rev 12 in my next post.
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To quote from both 1 Peter 3:7 and 2 Corinthians 11:3 does not demean women but rather establishes how Jehovah God made the woman, as "a complement" to the man.(Gen 2:20) The Bible establishes the complementary role women play, not us.


Eve did not prove to be "descent", but rather wanted something for herself that she had no right to, "to be like God" with the promise of "knowing good and bad."(Gen 3:5) She then looked upon "the tree of knowledge of good and bad" (which established God's right to set moral boundaries for his creation) from a different viewpoint, even though she quoted Jehovah's command regarding it.(Gen 3:3) So she now thought of the tree as "desirable" rather than objectionable and "began taking of its fruit and eating it", with Adam later also eating one of the fruits.(Gen 3:6)


She, along with Adam and "the serpent" (who later came to be called Satan and who is the prime instigator of blasphemy from then till now, portraying God as untruthful and set in motion the universal issue of God's sovereignty) were the first apostates, ' standing away from ' God.(The Greek word apostasia has the meaning "stand away from")


Under the Mosaic Law, if a person sinned, be it by ignorance or intentional, he or she were still guilty and required a sin offering.(Lev 4:1-35) If a person sees a sign that reads "No Trespassing" and still jumps over the fence, could he rightfully plead that he was ignorant ?


Most fail to appreciate that both Adam Eve were created perfect, and could not fall back on a ransom like we can due to our being flawed (which we received from Adam) or imperfect.(1 Tim 2:5, 6) Both were fully aware of God's command and of the consequences if they disobeyed.(Gen 2:17)


These transgressed God's one simple command and were therefore condemned to die, being told: "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”(Gen 3:19) Hence, Adam and Eve are forever dead, having proved disloyal to God.


And of Luke 4, it says that "the Devil" tempted Jesus (Luke 4:2), offering him "all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth", telling Jesus: "You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours."(Luke 4:7) Hence, Satan (meaning "resistor") the Devil (meaning "slanderer") tried to sway Jesus to accept his offer, but which Jesus promptly rejected.(Luke 4:8)


And at Genesis 3:14, 15, the word "serpent" is used for the first time, and of which God clearly shows that from then on there would be two "seeds", or two organizations, Jehovah's and Satan's, with each diametrically opposed to the other, in which "enmity" would remain until Satan and his "seed" are destroyed.(Rom 16:20; Rev 20:7-10) Hence, at Revelation 12:9, it says "the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan." This identifies the "original serpent" is the one at Genesis 3 as Satan the Devil.


The Hebrew word shammar has more than one meaning ("properly, to hedge about (as with thorns), i.e. guard, generally, to protect, attend to, etc", Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible) and the context of a Scripture (just as any word used in a sentence) determines its use, just as the English word "read" is listed as having 16 different specific meanings.(Microsoft Reference Library 2005)
 

Tkinnie

Member
May 15, 2011
72
4
8
37
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Interesting posts...

Lets first remember that ADAM and EVE did not know what "good" or "evil" was.

WHos to say that God wasnt going to allow them to eat from the apple at a later time, they were just newborns at this time.

The serpent existed, it was in the garden... Now I'm not sure if the serpent was the devil himself or not, but we do Know that LUCIFER walked in the garden of GOD, but God was talking to Lucifer in a way that would seem to me that he had not fallen yet.

ADAM was not deceived, but it states that he was with her. Now with her could mean with her in the garden or standing next to her.

If adam was not next to eve and she wandered off then this would make more sense.

If in fact Adam was standing right next to Eve, then that means that he literally just sat there and listened to what the serpent was saying, knowing full well what GOD had said.

Again they knew not Good nor Evil, so to what capacity did ADAM or EVE make their decisions?????
This was orchestrated by God.
Remember at the end of this whole event God Says "BEHOLD, now man has become like one of us."

God could have destroyed them but did not. He covered them.

Its Adam's sin because he is the Head and the Head is always held responsible.

Adam willfully disobeyed. Because of his willful disobedience, GOD punished him.
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Adam and Eve did know "good and bad", because Jehovah God had given them this command: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”(Gen 2:16, 17)


When God told Adam and Eve that "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die", what further did he mean ? What did the "tree of the knowledge of good and bad" represent ?


It represented Jehovah's right as Creator to establish moral boundaries for "man", who has been endowed with a conscience (Greek suneidesis, meaning"co-knowledge", Gen 1:26, being made in God's "image"), like having a person next to you to tap you on the shoulder before you do anything wrong, warning you.


When Eve first and then later Adam (Adam was not with Eve when she initially partook of the fruit, Gen 3:6, Heb. gam, that can mean "afterwards") ate from the "tree of the knowledge of good and bad", what did these display ? The taking into their own hands what is right and wrong from their viewpoint, not God's.


They established their own moral standard, disregarding Jehovah's. Hence, they now became sinners ("sin", Heb, chattath, meaning "to miss", as in missing when shooting an arrow at a target) and missed the mark of perfect obedience and the penalty for this is death.(Gen 3:19; Rom 5:12)


Thence, when God said to his "only-begotten Son": "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—” (Gen 3:22), what did he mean ?


In that Adam and Eve made their own decision as to what is "good and bad", what is right and wrong, setting their own moral boundary, but which conflicted with God's arrangement for him alone to establish what is right and what is wrong.

With the "serpent" or Satan being the first to violate God's moral laws, rejecting Jehovah's rulership and setting up his own, he then sought to acquire the worship due Jehovah for himself, being very seductive and choosing the "weaker vessel", Eve to implement his wicked plan and that later involved Adam, causing the damaging effect of sin and resulting death.
 

Asyncritus

New Member
Sep 8, 2013
52
2
0
Guestman said:
To quote from both 1 Peter 3:7 and 2 Corinthians 11:3 does not demean women but rather establishes how Jehovah God made the woman, as "a complement" to the man.(Gen 2:20) The Bible establishes the complementary role women play, not us.
I did not say that the Bible (Paul and Peter in this case) demeans women. I think your assumptions that Eve was simple minded, easily led, more susceptible to temptation etc etc are not biblical concepts.

She was the mother of all living, and deserves some more respect.


Eve did not prove to be "descent", but rather wanted something for herself that she had no right to, "to be like God" with the promise of "knowing good and bad."(Gen 3:5) She then looked upon "the tree of knowledge of good and bad" (which established God's right to set moral boundaries for his creation) from a different viewpoint, even though she quoted Jehovah's command regarding it.(Gen 3:3) So she now thought of the tree as "desirable" rather than objectionable and "began taking of its fruit and eating it", with Adam later also eating one of the fruits.(Gen 3:6)
You again fail to ask the relevant questions which shed a totally different light on the matter.

It says, first of all, that her reply to the serpent, was totally correct, and in fact went further that God had decreed ("neither shall we touch it"). Yet, it was in the correct spirit of obedience.

If that was what she thought,

1 How then could she SEE that the fruit was a desirable one? How could she SEE that it was good for food, when she previously thought it was poisonous?

2 How could she SEE that it was to be desired to make one wise?

She, along with Adam and "the serpent" (who later came to be called Satan and who is the prime instigator of blasphemy from then till now, portraying God as untruthful and set in motion the universal issue of God's sovereignty) were the first apostates, ' standing away from ' God.(The Greek word apostasia has the meaning "stand away from")
This is completely wrong.

As I pointed out, the serpent's statement 'ye shall not surely die' accuses God of lying. The serpent is in the role of a 'false prophet', speaking great lies against the Most High. These are gravely sinful things, and if we accept that, we run headlong into the great problem, How is it that it was by ONE MAN that sin entered the world?

Surely you can see that if the serpent really was 'the devil' and 'satan' WHO HAD ALREADY SINNED AND BEEN CAST OUT OF HEAVEN (see my posts on the Great Red Dragon for the origins of these myths), then SIN HAD ALREADY ENTERED THE WORLD in the form of the fallen angel(s).

But scripture is absolutely adamant on the point. It is BY ONE MAN that sin entered the world, and death by sin. It says so NO FEWER THAN 10 TIMES in Romans ch.5

That fact cannot be evaded or avoided, and you need to generate some explanation for it which will harmonise the 2 viewpoints: yours and scriptures.

Under the Mosaic Law, if a person sinned, be it by ignorance or intentional, he or she were still guilty and required a sin offering.(Lev 4:1-35) If a person sees a sign that reads "No Trespassing" and still jumps over the fence, could he rightfully plead that he was ignorant ?
Eve does not plead ignorance. She admits her sin, and adds in mitigation that she was deceived by the serpent and did eat.

Someone who sins in ignorance is not as guilty as the instigator of the crime. The tool is less guilty than the mastermind who planned the operation, and in fairness should receive the lesser punishment. That is exactly what happens here.

Most fail to appreciate that both Adam Eve were created perfect, and could not fall back on a ransom like we can due to our being flawed (which we received from Adam) or imperfect.(1 Tim 2:5, 6) Both were fully aware of God's command and of the consequences if they disobeyed.(Gen 2:17)

They were certainly not created perfect. They were created sinless, but still able to sin, as the events showed only too clearly.

An instrument which possesses a great fault can hardly be described as 'perfect'!

These transgressed God's one simple command and were therefore condemned to die, being told: "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”(Gen 3:19) Hence, Adam and Eve are forever dead, having proved disloyal to God.
This is correct in the main but the mother of the Messiah is most likely to be in the Kingdom of God.
And of Luke 4, it says that "the Devil" tempted Jesus (Luke 4:2), offering him "all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth", telling Jesus: "You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours."(Luke 4:7) Hence, Satan (meaning "resistor") the Devil (meaning "slanderer") tried to sway Jesus to accept his offer, but which Jesus promptly rejected.(Luke 4:8)

This is, for the present, irrelevant until we have cleared up the events in Eden.

And at Genesis 3:14, 15, the word "serpent" is used for the first time, and of which God clearly shows that from then on there would be two "seeds", or two organizations, Jehovah's and Satan's, with each diametrically opposed to the other, in which "enmity" would remain until Satan and his "seed" are destroyed.(Rom 16:20; Rev 20:7-10)
This is incorrect. The text says:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The enmity is between the serpent and the woman, the serpent's seed, and the woman's seed (Christ). As events turned out, the Jewish leaders (were called the children of the devil, who' was a murderer from the beginning') were the enemies of the woman's seed (which was Christ).

The seed of the serpent successfully bruised the manchild's heel ('his heel' as Gen says). It was not a permanent injury.

But in so doing the man child bruised the serpent's head - he destroyed him that had the power of death, as it says in Hebrews 2.14, that is the 'devil, permanently.

Of course, 'him that had the power of death' is sin : for 'the wages of sin is death', as we all know only too well.

Hence, at Revelation 12:9, it says "the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan." This identifies the "original serpent" is the one at Genesis 3 as Satan the Devil.
I am dealing with this in 'the Great Red Dragon series of articles.


The Hebrew word shammar has more than one meaning ("properly, to hedge about (as with thorns), i.e. guard, generally, to protect, attend to, etc", Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible) and the context of a Scripture (just as any word used in a sentence) determines its use, just as the English word "read" is listed as having 16 different specific meanings.(Microsoft Reference Library 2005)
The immediate context of shamar is ch 3.24 as I have pointed out, Adam had failed in his duties to 'keep' the garden, and was replaced by the cherubim who did the job with a sword that turned every way to KEEP (shamar) the way of the tree of life.

They were now the 'watchmen'.
 

Angelina

Prayer Warrior
Staff member
Admin
Feb 4, 2011
37,123
15,099
113
New Zealand
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
How could a serpent fall? It has no moral sense, and cannot be guilty of murder. (Jesus: 'He was a murderer from the beginning' Notice too, the murderer is described as 'he'. A beast can only be described as an 'it')
It is clear that the serpent in the garden had moral sense otherwise God cursing him for his treachery would be purposeless...


Manslaughter, maybe, as the bull that gored someone had to be killed under the Law: But it had no moral sense, and couldn't have any moral sense.
Is the serpent in the garden the same as other beasts of the field? can they speak today?

And there's the additional point, that if the serpent was a sinner ALREADY, then it was by one serpent that sin entered the world!

That doesn't square with the NT, does it?
Revelation 12:9
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
Hey Asyncritus....I agree imagination can be a wonderful tool while reading scripture. It can help us understand the time, setting and people that were playing a part in God's unfolding story to us.
However, I do believe we need to be very cautious in allowing our imagination to take part of our reading...and more importantly, interpreting scripture. It can, I believe, lead to assumptions that are either false, or simply cannot be backed up by scripture....

In your OP, at the beginning, you make some assumptions that I'm afraid, to me, then throw the rest of your ideas a little off....

You make some jumps when decided what Adams roll was when the bible says he was to "work it and keep it". You say:

"weed, prune the trees, make sure the irrigation channels were open, pick up dead fruit, leaves etc etc. When we consider the fact that the Garden was probably the size of Jerusalem, and probably on the same site, you begin to see the size of this task.

Second, and very oddly, he is to ‘keep it’: the Hebrew is used of ‘to act as a watchman.’ Watchman? Against what? Well, if a herd of elephants decided to take a canter through the Garden, there wouldn’t be very much garden left, so he had to keep unwanted beasts out. Makes the task even bigger. While he was dressing the garden, he couldn’t be keeping it, and vice versa. So the Lord God made Eve, an help meet for him – he needed the assistance.
Therefore, I infer that Adam had the power to include, or exclude, any animals he saw fit. For example, I imagine that if he had to mow a lawn, say, he would whistle up a herd of goats or whatever to eat the grass at the required spot. Probably telepathy or something like it."

In Genesis 3, after the fall, we see that weeds come into existance...part of God's punishment to Adam. If this is so, and we see that death did not belong on earth before the fall, then we cannot just assume the exact nature of Adam's roll in the garden. We cannot know that Adam could include or exclude certain animals within the garden.

[SIZE=12pt]"Making the reasonable assumption that Adam invited or ordered it in, we now inquire “Why did he do so?”[/SIZE]"

I'm afraid that I cannot agree to begin a doctrine on 'reasonable assumption' alone. It's certainly an interesting point you make...it's interesting thinking about it....could it have gone down like this....I wonder what might have come from it had it have happened like this? That sort of thing....but there are just too many suppositions in your story to found all of scripture on. The bible tells us exactly what and how much we need to know. What it tells us is that in the garden the natural order that God created was torn asunder when Eve lead and Adam followed...both into sin. And from that moment both mankind and the world was broken. Jesus, the second Adam, did not make the same mistake the first did....he placed God first, and it is through Jesus that in the end, we will once again be restored to a perfect garden and the presence of God.
While it might be fun to use our imaginations to paint more details of the garden...what it was like and what we might be heading for in the new heavens and new earth, I don't think that there is anything to be scripturally or spiritually gained by founding things on such imaginations...
 

Asyncritus

New Member
Sep 8, 2013
52
2
0
It is clear that the serpent in the garden had moral sense otherwise God cursing him for his treachery would be purposeless...
I'm afraid that it isn't as clear as maybe you might like it to be.

Did the ground have any moral sense? "Cursed is the ground for thy sake..."

And under the law, an ox that gored someone to death was to be killed, but if the owner knew all about it, he was ALSO to die.

Ex 21.28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.

29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

So this is parallel to what happened to the serpent. It was not morally accountable - how could it be? No law was given to it, but the person who was responsible for the deaths that resulted, Adam, was to die, and he did.

Is the serpent in the garden the same as other beasts of the field? can they speak today?
No, they can't. Therefore something happened to this particular serpent that resulted in its strange powers. I suggest that it ate of the tree, and that had strange effects on it. Have a fresh look at the OP, and see the logic that I have applied to the case.



Revelation 12:9
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



When did this happen?

And do have a look at my thread The Great Red Dragon, and let me have your opinion.
And BTW, what do you think about the point that it was by ONE MAN that sin entered the world? And if the devil/satan/serpent HAD ALREADY SINNED, then it was by ONE SERPENT that sin entered the world.

Thanks
Async

Rach said:
In Genesis 3, after the fall, we see that weeds come into existance...part of God's punishment to Adam. If this is so, and we see that death did not belong on earth before the fall, then we cannot just assume the exact nature of Adam's roll in the garden. We cannot know that Adam could include or exclude certain animals within the garden.
You disappoint me, Rach. Are you seriously trying to tell me that grass didn't grow, fruit didn't fall off the trees, dead leaves didn't litter the pathways, irrigation channels didn' t get clogged with dead leaves - and all that sort of thing?

If that didn't happen, then what does 'dressing' the Garden mean? Why did God give him that job if there wasn't anything to do?
Rach said:
[SIZE=12pt]"Making the reasonable assumption that Adam invited or ordered it in, we now inquire “Why did he do so?”[/SIZE]"

I'm afraid that I cannot agree to begin a doctrine on 'reasonable assumption' alone. It's certainly an interesting point you make...it's interesting thinking about it....could it have gone down like this....I wonder what might have come from it had it have happened like this? That sort of thing....but there are just too many suppositions in your story to found all of scripture on. The bible tells us exactly what and how much we need to know. What it tells us is that in the garden the natural order that God created was torn asunder when Eve lead and Adam followed...both into sin. And from that moment both mankind and the world was broken. Jesus, the second Adam, did not make the same mistake the first did....he placed God first, and it is through Jesus that in the end, we will once again be restored to a perfect garden and the presence of God.
While it might be fun to use our imaginations to paint more details of the garden...what it was like and what we might be heading for in the new heavens and new earth, I don't think that there is anything to be scripturally or spiritually gained by founding things on such imaginations...

I agree that imagination can lead one astray. However, when it is tied down rigorously to the facts, and perfectly legitimate inferences drawn, that is a different kettle of fish altogether.

I am vexed by the questions:

How did that serpent get in there? And why was it there in the first place?

Did God put it there to tempt them? That I reject vehemently, because that makes God the author of sin. Not possible.

So what then?

Would you, having just planted up a most beautiful garden, put a serpent in the middle of it - which may have been a dangerous animal? I seriously doubt that.

So how did it get in, then? Only 2 possibilities exist:

1 It sneaked in somehow, and Adam didn't know about it, or

2 It was commanded to come in, and Adam knew all about it.

But he was standing there WITH HER when the conversation was going on - therefore he knew about it, and didn't kill it, or at least drive it out: especially when he heard it uttering blasphemous words against the Most High.

How am I doing so far?
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
Asyncritus said:

You disappoint me, Rach. Are you seriously trying to tell me that grass didn't grow, fruit didn't fall off the trees, dead leaves didn't litter the pathways, irrigation channels didn' t get clogged with dead leaves - and all that sort of thing?

If that didn't happen, then what does 'dressing' the Garden mean? Why did God give him that job if there wasn't anything to do?
I'm saying that we cannot know what a world without sin and decay in it really looked like. How can you know...I mean really know that fruit died and fell. Maybe it just sat ripe and full on the tree until eaten. The point I was making is that we cannot know, indeed, we cannot even comprehend or imagine what a world without sin is like. We cannot know how God created things to be....it is just the imaginings of limited and faulty human minds. Sure we can 'imagine' what dressing the garden meant, what Adam's job may have been...but my point remains....it's just imagination...even tied down with what we now regards as logical steps, its still imagination and logic based on a world system and understanding where everything is broken...everything.

I agree that imagination can lead one astray. However, when it is tied down rigorously to the facts, and perfectly legitimate inferences drawn, that is a different kettle of fish altogether.

I am vexed by the questions:

How did that serpent get in there? And why was it there in the first place?

Did God put it there to tempt them? That I reject vehemently, because that makes God the author of sin. Not possible.

So what then?

Would you, having just planted up a most beautiful garden, put a serpent in the middle of it - which may have been a dangerous animal? I seriously doubt that.

So how did it get in, then? Only 2 possibilities exist:

1 It sneaked in somehow, and Adam didn't know about it, or

2 It was commanded to come in, and Adam knew all about it.

But he was standing there WITH HER when the conversation was going on - therefore he knew about it, and didn't kill it, or at least drive it out: especially when he heard it uttering blasphemous words against the Most High.

How am I doing so far?
Again....there is nothing wrong in wondering these things....I think that overall it's benefical to wonder...but taking those wonderings, those things played out in our imagination, and trying to put the weight of scripture, of God's word onto those imaginings, is always....always, going to be risky and probably misleading. As I said...we base our imagining on what we can know, see, percieve and understand...all of which is broken, fallen. Therefore we are incapable of knowing...true knowing, of what it was like before everything was broken. Only God can know that...and we are not God.

Sorry....thats just what I feel and how I see it. If we, broken as we are, can imagine correctly every perfect thing, reason, season and happening that God put into place before we befouled it....then I just don't believe it was that perfect. As it clearly was....ipso factso...we cannot properly imagine it.
 

Asyncritus

New Member
Sep 8, 2013
52
2
0
Rach said:
Asyncritus said:


I'm saying that we cannot know what a world without sin and decay in it really looked like. How can you know...I mean really know that fruit died and fell. Maybe it just sat ripe and full on the tree until eaten. The point I was making is that we cannot know, indeed, we cannot even comprehend or imagine what a world without sin is like. We cannot know how God created things to be....it is just the imaginings of limited and faulty human minds. Sure we can 'imagine' what dressing the garden meant, what Adam's job may have been...but my point remains....it's just imagination...even tied down with what we now regards as logical steps, its still imagination and logic based on a world system and understanding where everything is broken...everything.


Again....there is nothing wrong in wondering these things....I think that overall it's benefical to wonder...but taking those wonderings, those things played out in our imagination, and trying to put the weight of scripture, of God's word onto those imaginings, is always....always, going to be risky and probably misleading. As I said...we base our imagining on what we can know, see, percieve and understand...all of which is broken, fallen. Therefore we are incapable of knowing...true knowing, of what it was like before everything was broken. Only God can know that...and we are not God.

Sorry....thats just what I feel and how I see it. If we, broken as we are, can imagine correctly every perfect thing, reason, season and happening that God put into place before we befouled it....then I just don't believe it was that perfect. As it clearly was....ipso factso...we cannot properly imagine it.
But we can imagine an angel that was cast out of heaven changing into a serpent, talking, tempting, saying God was a liar, and that you'd be perfectly safe eating this fruit here, which He said you mustn't.

You happy with that?
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
108
0
44
Australia
Asyncritus said:
But we can imagine an angel that was cast out of heaven changing into a serpent, talking, tempting, saying God was a liar, and that you'd be perfectly safe eating this fruit here, which He said you mustn't.

You happy with that?
If the bible says it, I'm happy with it.

I'm not saying it's not interesting or fun to 'imagine' what could have been....I'm just saying that building on that imagining, trying to put biblical weight, or rest other biblical content on that imagining, is not wise.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Tim Lee said:
The serpent existed, it was in the garden... Now I'm not sure if the serpent was the devil himself or not, but we do Know that LUCIFER walked in the garden of GOD, but God was talking to Lucifer in a way that would seem to me that he had not fallen yet.
Problem with that thinking is that if he had not yet rebelled against God, then what was he doing there tempting Adam and Eve in the first place to do sin?? The role of temptor is a role of Satan after... having sinned against God. Furthermore, I've yet to see anyone here address the timing of that beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 that Satan first rebelled with, and showing me per Scripture just WHEN that happened. I already know the 'when' of that event, simply because our Lord Jesus already showed us there in Rev.12:3-4, for it is linked with the time Satan drew a third of the stars (angels) into rebellion with him. Do we see anywhere in Genesis where that beast kingdom was setup in the time of Adam and Eve in God's Garden? No, absolutely not. If you guys can't understand this, then how are you going to understand what coming in our near future, and even about God's future Eternal Kingdom to come?