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I stand as a Christian who has not forsaken the assembling together with other members of the body of Christ. But I must add that we are not to hang our unity on doctrinal agreement. Love happens to be the bond of unity. I can disagree with someone I am committed to love.domenic said:This is from the OP:
“I stand as a Christian without a religion, and come under attack from all. Think about that. You are divided among yourselves, and can not even agree on the littlest of things, but you join together to attack one person who believes in God, but not religion?”
Humans will always disagree, one with the other, but when you follow man made doctrines and teach them as from God, you put the life of people in danger of the judgment of death from God. That is murder.williemac said:I stand as a Christian who has not forsaken the assembling together with other members of the body of Christ. But I must add that we are not to hang our unity on doctrinal agreement. Love happens to be the bond of unity. I can disagree with someone I am committed to love.
You should go off alone, and pray God does not judge you, as you judge others. As to you my task is done.aspen2 said:nah, i think you ultimately want people to only agree with you domenic - which you conviniently call gods true and therefore unity. i call your method what it is - private interpretation
That is correct, but not entirely. I can point you to scripture (that I'm sure you know yourself) that admonishes us to hold fast what we have received. That implies more than faith because faith cannot do its full work apart from understanding, knowledge and wisdom. Just as there are those who go astray because they have much doctrine, but little to no obedience, so also are those who go astray because they eschew doctrine for the sake of experience, and are deceived by their own heart or another spirit.Justin Mangonel said:The important thing is that we do the will of God. That is not a doctrine but an action. Many hold very mixed up views but they still, when it comes right down to it, do the will of their Father. While others argue about docrine be a doer of the word and hear God's voice for yourself. Holding the correct doctrine is not what commends you to God.
Justin Mangonel said:Dear D,
When you suddenly see things correctly you want the whole world to see what you see. When you get revelation what you understand is crystal clear and sometimes it is difficult and frustrating when others don't "get it." It is like someone who has quit smoking becoming critical of those who still do.
It is not worth tying yourself up into a knot about. It will just make your frustrated and will tend to make you critical of others. let God continue to lead and guide you but also give others enough room to find out for themselves too. Be a witness to others of what God is showing you, plant the seed, and give it time to grow. Farmers learn patience because they cannot force their crops to grow all they can do is tend to them and help them mature.
When you start to wake up it is difficult. Give others a chance to do the same.
Blessings,
Justin
P.S. when I say that doctrine can save no one I do not mean that it is not important to know and understand the truth. However, the fact of the matter is that Jesus said,
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
The important thing is that we do the will of God. That is not a doctrine but an action. Many hold very mixed up views but they still, when it comes right down to it, do the will of their Father. While others argue about docrine be a doer of the word and hear God's voice for yourself. Holding the correct doctrine is not what commends you to God.
Wormwood,Wormwood said:Domenic,
If you are going to post your beliefs in a Christian debate forum, you should not assume a martyr complex when people oppose your ideas. It's the nature of the forum. Christians can disagree with each other and still love each other. Many of Paul's epistles instruct Christians how to get along in the midst of differences of opinion. The Bible assumes we will not all agree on everything. Now, on with your comments...
Anybody on the forum I have addressed understands I am a Christian, and I claim no religion. Let me expand on that one point, “Of no religion.” If you agree our God is a God of order, and not a God of division, than something is wrong. If you further agree there are differences between religions, and our God is not a God of difference between his people, something is wrong. If the truth is different from religion to religion, and our God has one understanding for all his people, than something is very wrong. When Gods people in one religion views those in a different religion as dead in Gods eyes, truly there is something very, very wrong.
Christianity is a religion. If you are a Christian, you are claiming a religion. You are claiming to follow Christ rather than Buddha, Mohammed or other teacher. Yes God does condemn those who follow false religions. The Bible is pretty plain on this. Do you mean you claim no denomination? If this is what you mean, than this is a very different discussion. Yet even among some denominational differences, there are issues worth dividing over. Some "Christian" denominations reject the Bible as God's Word which others believe is a doctrinal issue worth dividing over. Some Christian denominations embrace the practice of homosexuality and some Christians believe this is an issue worth dividing over. By your rationale, the only real evil in Christianity is disunity. But at what cost must Christians remain unified? Paul told the Corinthians to "expel the immoral brother from among you." The issues are not as simplistic as you paint them.
There is only one creature who employs division, Satan. Our God is powerful. There is nothing he can not do. Why has he allowed division among his people?
I stand as a Christian without a religion, and come under attack from all. Think about that. You are divided among yourselves, and can not even agree on the littlest of things, but you join together to attack one person who believes in God, but not religion?
I belong to a "non-denominational" group, but even that is a bit of a misnomer. Every group can be categorized by particular views. Certainly you have particular views about the Bible, the person and work of Christ, the nature of humanity, the sovereignty of God, the atonement, and so forth. So while you can say all day long that you have no religion, you certainly have perspectives on these issues that classify you or indicate a "denomination" (which means simply to name something)...albeit an informal one. If you want to argue that these views don't really matter then I would have to disagree with you. They do matter. Maybe not all have eternal consequences but there is certainly are notable differences. Simply because I do not want my children under a teacher that will tell them they must be slain in the spirit and speak in tongues to prove they have been saved does not mean that my motives to keep them from such teaching are demonic. I can love a Pentecostal brother or sister with such views without putting myself or my family under that teaching.
Moreover, why is it that you are impervious to such division? You are disagreeing with people here regarding their disagreements. Is this not divisive on your part? Are you saying you embrace both Catholic doctrine and Protestant? Are you claiming that you agree with everyone on every doctrinal position or that you refuse to even hold a position? This argument does not even make sense in my opinion.
I understand people will defend what they believe in. I make the claim all religions are false. I am not 100% wrong. If I were to stand for your religion, and said, “All others are false,” you would stand with me. If all other religions are false, than I am only 10% wrong in my claim. The problem with this, who is to say which religion is the true religion? The others also believe they are the true religion. In that case, division does not go away, it grows bigger. Our God is not a God of division. That is a fact we all agree on. If there were no religion, would there be division? Why has God allowed Satan to make division among his people? Is it to separate the goats from the sheep? I don’t have an answer to that question. I do know whatever God allows is for a good reason. Something is wrong. Something is very, very wrong.
Again, I think you are confusing doctrinal disagreements with judgment and condemnation. Simply because different denominations have different views does not mean they condemn or believe other views are worthy of eternal destruction. In fact, one cannot really love if they cannot embrace another in spite of differences. Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the denominational splits across Western Christianity, however, I think you are making this situation far more sinister than it actually is. I think it is a good thing to be passionately convinced of your position, as long as you can do it in love without passing judgment.
“One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” (Romans 14:5, ESV)
Wormwood said:Domenic,
I see, so you are a Jehovah's Witness then. I must say such stances are highly unorthodox, and in my opinion, highly unbiblical. Allow me to deal with your objections, and if you would like, I can start a separate post dealing with the divinity of Christ and the teaching of Scripture on the subject since that is a much more lengthy topic.
1. I think it is a misnomer to suggest that the Watchtower Society is "not religion." It is its own denominational offshoot from Christian primitivism. The reason it is unaffiliated and not considered a denomination is because the majority of Christian groups and leaders consider it as a cult that holds to highly heretical teaching. It is not as if the Watchtower Society is a pure group off which many denominations broke. It is its own offshoot formed by the teachings and prophecies of Charles Taze Russell.
2. The idea that "we dont go to heaven" is an issue that JW's like to wave a banner over, but its really a misunderstanding of traditional Christian teaching. The idea of "heaven" is not so much a matter of a celestial location of believers, but is rather the concept of man dwelling with God. Historic Christianity believes in the recreation of the earth where humanity dwells in the presence of God. This is "heaven," not because it is located away from earth, but because wherever God dwells is often referred to as "heaven" among Christians.
3. Hell is a lengthy subject I dont have time to tackle. Suffice it to say that I dont believe Jesus is using hyperbole when he is speaking of eternal torment. While "fire" may be figurative to classify the horrific nature of that torment, it is not merely the cessation of existance as JW's believe.
4. Jesus was crucified on a cross. Although it doesnt really matter, fringe groups like JW's like to major in minors. Granted, the Greek word means "stake." However, historically if one follows the etymology of the word, they quickly find that in the first century, crucifixions were indeed on crosses, not stakes. Hundreds of years prior, people were impaled on stakes. The torture was altered over the centuries to maximize suffering of the victim. It is a historical fact that, by the time of Jesus, people were no longer impaled on stakes, but were crucified on crosses. So while the word used was still "stake" it had changed meaning. This happens all the time in language. For instance, a "buggy whip" used to be a whip for horses that pulled a buggy. Now its a term used for an antenna on a dune buggy. The context and era of a word or term is very significant. JW's have missed this big time.
5. False prophecies are the JW's MO. If any group has been guilty of a host of false predictions and prophecies, its the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their false prophecies are widely documented.
6. JW's like to argue that the "trinity" is not a biblical word. True, but neither is "theocratic kingdom" a popular term for JW's. The point is not whether or not a word is in the BIble, but if the concept is in the Bible. It most certainly is. Many OT passages that use the word for Yahweh or Jehovah are quoted by NT writers in reference to Jesus. John's Gospel explicited says the "Word was God" and I can address the Greek on this with you in another post if you like. The firstborn references are not indications of Jesus as a created being, but indicated prominence as an heir. Finally, the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because of his divine claims. He could have easily corrected this misunderstanding and said, "Wait, I'm not claiming to be God!" but he never did. Jesus also accepted worship, which is blasphemous unless he is divine.
Although you may claim to be a "follower of Jesus" it should be understood that your view of who Jesus is VERY different from historic Christianity. Thus, "Christian" would not be a very fitting term as it denotes one who embraces the doctrines of historic Christianity.
No trick questions:Wormwood said:I believe in "heaven" as in a new heavens and new earth where we will live in the presence of God.
I believe in the torment of hell (whether it is literal fire is irrelevant in my mind).
I believe Jesus was crucified on a cross (which I already gave you the historical validation of that...although it hardly matters)
I believe God is triune.
I have no idea what you are talking about with "false prophecies." Are you wanting to know if I believe in "false prophecies?" Is this a trick question?
I'd be happy to hear your views on these issues. Since I have studied these issues for many years, I am not really approaching this as someone uninformed who is seeking guidance which seems to be what you desire. However, I would be happy to listen to your ideas and present mine when I am in disagreement with you.
Either back your statement with the Bible, or some other solid proof. As it stands it is just your theory.Wormwood said:The problem you are having here is with the term "heaven." Heaven does not mean "non-earth dwelling." Matthew refers almost fifty times to the "Kingdom of heaven." Heaven means the rule and reign of God. So when the rule and reign of God is manifested on earth, we call this "heaven." God is our "heavenly" Father not heavenly because he is not present in the world, but because he is above and beyond us. He is "from above" while we are "from below." Heaven has to do with exaltation while earth often in Scripture has to do with evil, darkness and rebellion. When the "kingdom of heaven" and the "heavenly Father" make their dwelling with us on earth, our bodies will be transformed into a "heavenly dwelling" (2 Cor. 5:2). So you see, you are making much fuss about nothing. The problem is not with the idea that we will live in "heaven" but your assumption that "heaven" means non-earth. This is not how Christians understand "heaven." Yes, we will live on a new earth, but that new earth will be "heavenly" because the Kingdom of heaven will be manifested as we dwell with the heavenly Father and live in heavenly dwellings. Basically it means the things above will transform the things here below and the lower things will be exalted to be heavenly things. That is "heaven" and that is where believers will dwell.
So, this point is basically more of a misunderstanding on your part than anything. Christians are not gnostics that believe in a non-material dwelling apart from physical creation. Christians of all denominations do and always have believed we will live in a perfected world where the Kingdom of heaven is manifested. This is why it is called "heaven." Next point.