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Soul Sleep yes or no?

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by friend of, Nov 18, 2021.

Is there such a thing as "soul sleep"?

This poll will close on Nov 18, 2022 at 9:51 PM.
  1. Yes

    8 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. No

    9 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Other

    1 vote(s)
    5.6%
  1. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    I believe when we die we are ushered into the presence of God. Here is my reasoning as to why there is no "soul sleep" upon death.

    Absent the body, present with the Lord. (Apostle Paul) 2 Corinthians 5:8

    It is appointed for men to die, then comes the judgment. Hebrews 9:27


    Today you will be with me in paradise. (Jesus to the thief on the cross)

    The beheaded saints under the altar of God pleading with Him to avenge them. They are not in soul sleep. (Revelation 6:10)

    The story of the rich man and Lazarus. They were conscious after death. Perhaps this parable should not be taken literally, mind, I'm just throwing it out there.

    What do you think? Please use scripture to justify your position. God bless!
     
  2. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Hi; my mind went immediately also to 2 Corinthians 5.8...
     
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  3. Desire Of All Nations

    Desire Of All Nations Active Member

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    You are misquoting all of those passages. None of those passages say what you believe they say, especially in light of all of the OT passages that concretely teach the dead aren't aware of anything. The idea that a person dies and ends up in God's presence also contradict the NT plainly teaching about the resurrection of the dead and why it has to happen. As Christ said, God is not a God of the dead.
     
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  4. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Hey bro!

    There are actually multiple passages contained in the OT that refute this doctrine as well, ones I never see discussed in the usual debates on the subject. But I'm not up for doing a full 1,000 page write up on it atm. If I remember, I'll direct your attention to it when I eventually do a piece on it. In the meantime, if you want the opposition's argument on this one, you have come to the right place. Christianity Board experienced a large influx of Unitarians and Jehovahs Witnesses awhile back, and they are still in force now. Added to the SDAs, I'd say there at least 12-15 proponents of soul sleep here right now, and others who have posted leanings in that direction.

    So if you wanted discussion you will likely get it here, in spite of the fact that there have been numerous threads on the subject already in the last three months or so.

    God bless, and glad to see you're still studying the word of God.
    - H
     
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  5. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    I am rather disappointed HiH...I was contemplating a full 1,000 page write up....[​IMG]
     
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  6. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Do you even know what you are talking about? Why would the resurrection of the saints CONTRADICT their presence in Heaven prior to the resurrection? Indeed that is the strongest support for the resurrection.

    Just ignore Ecclesiastes and "the dead know nothing". The fact that Samuel came out of Sheol/Hades and had a severe talk with Saul because he knew a great deal cancels that idea.

    So what happens at death, and how does one explain the resurrection? At death the soul and spirit (immaterial) are separated from the body (material). The body goes into the grave and returns to dust (no ashes). But the souls and spirits of those who are children of God go to be with Christ. Proof? See the death of Stephen in Acts 8 & 9.

    Now all the OT and NT saints who have passed on are presently very much alive in the New Jerusalem, in the presence of God and Christ (Hebrew 12:1,22-24). But since they have all been promised glorious, immortal, resurrected bodies for eternity, they are brought with Christ when He comes at the Rapture, and given those glorious bodies. At the same time the saints who are alive are transformed and raptured (just like Enoch was "translated"). Which means that the Resurrection/Rapture is one event but they are separated by nanoseconds.

    1 CORINTHIANS 15: THE MYSTERY OF THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed,[transformed]
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, [nanoseconds] at the last trump: [also called "the Trump of God" see 1 Thess 4] for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [RESURRECTION], and we shall be changed. [RAPTURE]
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
     
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  7. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Contrary to popular belief, there is no teaching of an immortal soul that leaves the body at death in the Bible at all....that belief was adopted from the Platonic Greeks, not from anything Jesus or the OT scriptures taught.
    A "soul" in the Bible is a living, breathing creature....both man and animals are called "souls".

    Solomon who gained his Godly wisdom from Jehovah himself, wrote about where the dead go....
    Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10...
    "For the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have a reward any longer, for their memory is forgotten.
    Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun. . . .
    Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."


    "Sheol" in Hebrew is the equivalent of "Hades" in Greek. So neither place is inhabited by conscious souls. There is no activity, planning, knowledge or wisdom exhibited in the grave, which is what these words mean.
    The "spirit" in man is not a separate living entity either, but according to the original language words, the spirit is the breath in our lungs that keeps us breathing. Giving man the "breath of life" is what caused Adam to "become" a "soul"...he was not given one. (Genesis 2:7)

    Solomon lamented that humans die the same death as the animals do. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

    This is speaking about the "first resurrection" that is experienced only by the "elect". (Revelation 20:6) These alone are promised life in heaven to rule with Jesus....and like Jesus, they will die in their flesh, but be "made alive in the spirit". (1 Peter 3:18)

    "And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

    Jesus said that he was going to resurrect all the dead and call them from their graves once the Kingdom is established over the whole earth.
    John 5:28-29....
    "Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

    This was to occur in the future. This is not the "first resurrection" but the general resurrection of the dead, which takes place after Jesus and his elect have taken up their rulership in heaven.
    Many of these resurrected ones will have lived at a time when there was no way to get to know God or his Christ.....these will enter into a period of judgment in order to give them a first opportunity at salvation. All will still have free will.

    Since Jesus did not go to heaven for 40 days after his resurrection, and he did not promise the thief heaven anyway, we can see that this fits with John 5:28-29 above....the thief will be "with Jesus" in the coming paradise on earth when he is resurrected along with everyone else. He was not a baptized disciple of Christ, but had a change of heart just before he died. Deathbed conversions will not take anyone to heaven because only the "elect" are chosen for a role there. (Revelation 20:6) The dead have paid sin's wages and are in line for life in paradise where God put us in the first place.

    The word "soul" in the Bible can also refer to the life of a person, so these souls (not spirits) represent the martyred lives of the faithful, demanding justice for their murder. They were not alive when John saw them in vision, but remained in their graves until Jesus resurrected them upon his return.
    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...
    "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

    Yes, it is a parable, not meant to be taken literally. Heaven and hell (if there was such a place) would hardly be in speaking distance to one another....and a drop of water was never going to cool anyone down who was existing in flames....the language is all symbolic.

    Jesus' friend Lazarus was resurrected, and Jesus also said that "Lazarus was sleeping " and that he was going to "awaken him". (John 11:11-14) So again, the soul (person) sleeps until they are awakened.

    There is no such thing as life after death.....the opposite of life is not another kind of life...it is the cessation of life.
    Only those empowered by God's Holy Spirit can raise the dead....like Jesus and his apostles. Only God can make a human breathe again, restoring their life in the resurrection to come.

    That is how I understand the Bible's teaching on this subject.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  8. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to read up on things a little more first... but I'm sure you can handle the suspense.


    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    No sir, the first resurrection of those who are no longer subject to the second death happens after Jesus receives the Kingship. On a personal note, I believe Jesus was enthroned as king, and the first resurrection has occurred. Rev 20:6; but the second resurrection will not happen until God's Kingdom comes. Therefore we have to understand what the Bible says about those who have died. First of all they are not conscious of anything:
    (Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all,. . .
    (Ecclesiastes 9:10) . . .there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where
    you are going.
     
  10. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    Really? Lol

    Good to see you too man. Hope you are well.
    Are you a sadducee or a nonbeliever? 1 Corinthians 15:32
     
  11. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Neither....I am a Bible believing Christian. And the Bible does not teach that we have an immortal part of us that departs from the body at death. That was adopted later from Greek influence.
    It teaches resurrection....did you not know that there is a difference? That does not mean a continuation of life as soon as we die, but a restoration of life as experienced by Jesus’ friend Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)

    Where was Lazarus before Jesus brought him back to life? If he was in a better place, then why would Jesus bring him back to this life only to die again in the future?
    1 Corinthians 15:32 is talking about the resurrection, which for the “elect” was not to take place until Christ’s return.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...
    “But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do , who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (NASB)

    Read Paul’s words carefully here because he gives us the time of the “first resurrection” which is only for the elect. (Revelation 20:6) The general resurrection takes place later when Jesus and his elect bring the blessings of the Kingdom to faithful earthly subjects. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:3-4)
     
  12. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    the soul that sleepeth will surely wake up. qt chapter 1 v's 1
     
  13. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    Ok point taken
     
  14. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    She's a Jehovahs Witness, though she neglected to share that particular part with you, LoL.

    @Aunty Jane. Tell him the truth, Jane. Lord knows you're gonna tell him everything else. :p
     
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  15. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    We are given the Spirit of God. The Spirit is immortal.
     
  16. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the original language words in the Bible, we see something very important....something that tells us that Christendom’s adherents have been fed lies about what the “soul” and the “spirit” actually are.

    We have to remember that Jesus was Jewish and that the ancient Jews (as opposed to modern day ones) never believed in an immortal soul. For them a “soul” was a living, breathing creature....both humans and animals are called “souls” in Genesis. Both breathe the same air and die the same death. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) But only because of Adam’s sin. Humans were not created to die. Sin is what caused death.

    At Genesis 2:7 e.g. we read that: “The man came to be a living soul.”...when God breathed “the breath (spirit) of life” into his lungs and started him breathing. Here the word “soul” appears, and it is translated from the Hebrew word “neʹphesh”. This Hebrew word comes from a root meaning “to breathe.” However, it signifies “a living being, an individual, a person.”
    So a soul is only alive when it is breathing, once breathing stops, the soul (person) dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

    It is also interesting when we compare the words for “spirit” in the languages of the Bible....Hebrew and Greek. Both the Hebrew word (ruʹach) and the Greek word (pneuʹma) basically mean “breath” or “wind.” And the English word “spirit” comes from the Latin spiritus, which means “breath.”

    In English we have words like “pneumonia” or “pneumatic” which are taken from these ancient words. These relate to the lungs and to air.

    To learn the truth about “soul” and “spirit” we must distinguish between their two different meanings and distinctive applications. That there is a difference is clearly seen in the Bible at Hebrews 4:12, where it says: “For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit.”

    How does one divide “soul and spirit” if they believe that they are one and the same thing?

    This distinction is also shown at 1 Thessalonians 5:23...
    “May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. And may the spirit and soul and body of you brothers, sound in every respect, be preserved blameless at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Many have referred to this verse to prove that humans are made up of three components....body, soul and spirit, but on further investigation regarding the original language words and the context of this statement, we see a very different story.
    This verse is speaking metaphorically about the “body” of Christians as a whole, not as individuals. So the body here is the brotherhood....the “soul” is the life they have as a body, and the “spirit” they show would be their firm determination to remain faithful.

    Most people take survival of a person after death for granted.⁠...it is assumed that this is what the Bible teaches, but this is not true.....life continuing immediately after death was never a belief held by the ancient Jews. So reasoning and thinking people should not be interested in mere assertions.....they want convincing biblical proof....right?

    If death takes us to a better place, why does it feel so wrong? Why do we grieve instead of rejoicing?

    What exactly does the Bible say happens to us when we die? What does the Bible tell us directly rather than by suggestion or assertion?

    Firstly we can see that man IS a “soul”, not that he possesses one.
    And “spirit” is the ‘animator’ that keep us breathing.....the air in our lungs. Why or what mechanism is attached to “breathing” remains a mystery, but we know where that comes from. These are what the original languages reveal, and therefore what Jesus as a Jew, taught. He only had the Hebrew Scriptures.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6....
    “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.”
    So the dead “know nothing” and their emotions are also gone...even their love, God’s principle quality given to us.
    Solomon then goes on to say in verse 10....
    “Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave [sheol] where you are going.

    So right away we have direct statements that show us the condition of the dead.....they are in an unconscious state...they know nothing, can feel nothing, and have lost their ability to do anything.
    Psalm 146:4 says...
    His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
    On that very day his thoughts perish.”


    The soul has died, and the spirit that “goes out” or departs, is the last breath that leaves the lungs.
    There is no conscious entity that goes on living. No matter how much we want this to be true, the Bible does not lie....humans do. Satan wants us to believe that we don’t really die.....just as his first lie stated, so he promotes this idea.

    The Bible however teaches “resurrection”.....which is not the same thing at all.
    Take the example of Lazarus.....his sisters had sent word to Jesus that his friend was gravely ill and Jesus did not get up and immediately go to heal him as he could have, no, but he waited for four days and said to his apostles....
    “....Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.

    Where was Lazarus before Jesus resurrected him? Did Jesus drag him out of heaven back to this life, only to die again later? No! Because the Jews had faith in the resurrection as Martha revealed.....
    John 11:21-24....
    “Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.

    So Martha knew that her brother would “rise in the resurrection on the last day”....(in the future) but Jesus said he was going to bring him back to life there and then. Lazarus was “sleeping” in his tomb, as Jesus had said....he hadn’t gone anywhere.

    So you see, “soul sleep” is biblical, but immortality of the soul is not. Only the elect are promised immortality.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  17. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    The Bible tells the truth HiH....the rest doesn’t matter.....let it tell the story and then refute what it says.
     
  18. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    I could roll with this.
    It seems to me our fear of death does a flip out when we see a cadaver disintegrating into an unholy writhing mass of maggots and stench with the realisation that this is also our end.
    A split occurs in mens consciousness and full denial goes into overdrive inventing stories which contradict the evidence of both the word 'mortal' and what is presented to our senses.....let alone God's words 'you shall surely die'

    It also does mind boggling mental gymnastics when it comes to Jesus speaking of a resurrection.

    Our (mankind) ability to deny and compartmentalise (memory, emotion, thinking, facts) is quiet something. It easily denies evidence when it is inconvenient and ones sacrosanct ivory constructions are threatened. I think of Pilate's response to Jesus' declaration "I have come to bear witness to the truth'.... with, 'what is truth!'
     
  19. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Death was not meant to happen....we were not 'programmed' for death...only everlasting life. This was unending life in mortal flesh, (which is not immortality) only with permitted access to "the tree of life"....once that access was denied, death was sure to follow because sin caused some kind of genetic defect which was then passed down to all of Adam's offspring. (Romans 5:12) Sin is an inheritable condition, which is why Jesus had to come from outside the now defective human race. In order to repay Adam's debt, 'a sinless life had to be offered for a sinless life' in order to balance the scales of God's perfect justice.

    Which is why he had to demonstrate both kinds. There are two different resurrections spoken about in the scriptures...the "first" is for the "elect" in order to join Jesus in his Kingdom as fellow rulers and priests in heaven. (Revelation 20:6) Jesus performed resurrections back to life in the flesh, but he himself was resurrected as a spirit.....all of his elect will die the same death as he did and they too will be resurrected as spirits....this is how one is "born again".
    And then there is the general resurrection to follow, when the Kingdom rules the earth fulfilling John 5:28-29 and Revelation 21:2-4. Redeemed mankind will occupy this earth as God first intended.

    When you are convinced that your loved ones have lived on and that they are in a better place, it makes it easier to accept death....the devil knows this. He even provides his spirit mediums to conjure up wicked spirits who impersonate the dead, as in the case of the witch of Endor calling up the 'spirit' of Samuel.....God forbade communication with the dead (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) because these spirits are not who they pretend to be, perpetuating satan's lie and telling these ones things that only that person would know....where do they think satan's minions have been all this time? They know everything about everyone. Its a con....just another deception among many.
     
  20. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    seems you have it all cut and tucked AJ!
     
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