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Soul Sleep?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Hidden In Him, Dec 7, 2018.

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  1. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Alright now, don't start redefining well-understood terms. In the original use of the term in Classical Greek, Hades was the god of the Underworld and Tartarus, not the god of tombs and caves, and this same sense of Tartarus being the realm of the conscious dead was carried over into the LXX.
    Dave L does this to me a lot - responding to my questions by simply restating his positions. Not one for strife or just arguing for argument's sake, so maybe I'll just leave it here for now.

    Blessings in Christ, and I liked some of the passages I discovered during this discussion. Well worth it : )
    Hidden
     
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  2. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Biblically, hades is a place, not a god. Tartarus is not the realm of the conscious dead. It is the realm of the conscious living fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4). Also, the word tartarus is not used in the LXX as far as I can tell.
     
  3. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    What I meant was that the use of the term originated with the concept of Hades as the god of the conscious dead in the Underworld, and had the Jews disagreed with this concept they likely would not have carried over use of the term. For the Greeks, Tartarus was where the Titans were bound in chains and kept in "misty gloom" (which is what your citation of 2 Peter 2:4 is likewise referring to). But it was also where the wicked dead were confined as opposed to Elysian Fields, where the virtuous went after death. People were cast there for moral misdeeds like treason, abuse of power, offenses against blood relations, etc. Plato described it as the place were all who committed moral and ethical crimes were kept.
    It's used 4 times, although in three of them the sense was simply of "the depths" i.e. of the earth. Some manuscripts have Tartarus substituted for Hades in Proverbs 24:16 LXX, "Tartarus, and the love of a woman, and the earth not filled with water, and also fire, will not say, 'It is enough.'" The meaning here was that all the above are insatiable. Dry land will not say "enough" but will insatiably keep drinking in rain water; a forest fire will not say "enough" but will insatiably keep burning down trees; the love of a woman (presumably a woman's desires here) will likewise not say "enough" but insatiably keep wanting more; and Tartarus will not say "enough" but will insatiably continue to fill up with the souls of the dead.

    The word is also found in Jewish literature from the Inter-Testamental period. Pseudo-philo 60:3 calls Tartarus the place where evil spirits walked, and the Book of Enoch mentioned it as being ruled over by the archangel Uriel.
     
  4. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Found something at another forum that I thought was interesting:

    The Early Church Fathers on
    Hell

    The Early Fathers believed in a literal hell. A place where unrepentant sinners would spend their eternity separated from God. A place where all hope would be abandoned and where misery and suffering would be a constant companion. The idea that the Bibles torturous descriptions of hell were somehow symbolic of non-existence, as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim, was something that would have been totally foreign to them. To the Fathers, if Jesus said that something was eternal and torturous, (Matthew 25:46, Luke 16:24) then that is what it was. Rather than water down Jesus words they instead chose to use them to warn the faithful as Jesus Himself did.


    Ignatius of Antioch

    Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).


    Clement of Rome

    If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).


    Justin Martyr

    No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

    [Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (ibid. 52).


    The Martyrdom of Polycarp

    Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (Martyrdom of Polycarp2:3 [A.D. 155]).


    Athenagoras

    We [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).


    Theophilus of Antioch

    Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.... [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortally by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . , For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).


    Irenaeus

    The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire," they will be damned forever (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 189]).


    Hippolytus

    Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: "Just is your judgment!" And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (Against the Greeks3 [A.D. 212]).


    Minucius Felix

    I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (Octavius 34:12-5:3 [A.D. 226]).


    Cyprian of Carthage

    An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).


    Lactantius

    We therefore speak better and more truly, who say that the two ways belong to heaven and hell, because immortality is promised to the righteous, and everlasting punishment is threatened to the unrighteous (Divine Institutes 6 [A.D. 307]).


    Cyril of Jerusalem

    We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike; For if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past (Catechetical Lectures18:19 [A.D. 350]).


    John Chrysostom

    This is no small subject of enquiry which we propose, but rather about things which are of the first necessity and which all men enquire about; namely, whether hell fire have any end. For that it hath no end Christ indeed declared when he said, "Their fire shall not be quenched, and their worm shall not die” (Homily 9 on 1 Corinthians 3:12-15[circa A.D. 388]).
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Where are you getting this info from? Certainly not from the Bible.

    Please cite those four times.

    Yes, evil spirits (fallen angels), not dead saints that are conscious.
     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    No one prior to Hippolytus said such a thing. Yes, they believed in eternal punishment (the effects of the punishment are eternal, not the act of punishing), and unquenchable eternal fire (not eternal torture). It wasn't until 212 A.D. that the false teaching of eternal torture arose. If eternal torture is true, then that means those people being tortured have been given eternal life, but such life only comes through faith in Yeshua.
     
  7. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    gadar, do you believe the lake of fire is real fire that we experience here on the old earth? does ashes literally mean ashes, like in a fireplace.
     
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    I lean towards real fire and literal ashes, but it will not burn people alive forever, or as Minucius Felix wrote, "That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them ...". That is utter nonsense. I have no problem believing "fire" and "ashes" could be figurative language.
     
  9. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    I'm just wondering what will bring the flesh to extinction if not real fire.

    Maybe God has something else up His sleeve.

    It's a lake of "something" that's for sure

    Luke 5:1 N-AFS
    GRK: παρὰ τὴν λίμνην Γεννησαρέτ
    NAS: He was standing by the lake of Gennesaret;
    KJV: stood by the lake of Gennesaret,
    INT: by the lake of Gennesaret

    Luke 5:2 N-AFS
    GRK: παρὰ τὴν λίμνην οἱ δὲ
    NAS: lying at the edge of the lake; but the fishermen
    KJV: by the lake: but
    INT: by the lake but

    Luke 8:22 N-GFS
    GRK: πέραν τῆς λίμνης καὶ ἀνήχθησαν
    NAS: to the other side of the lake. So
    KJV: the other side of the lake. And
    INT: other side of the lake and they put off

    Luke 8:23 N-AFS
    GRK: εἰς τὴν λίμνην καὶ συνεπληροῦντο
    NAS: descended on the lake, and they [began] to be swamped
    KJV: on the lake; and
    INT: on the lake and they were being swamped

    Luke 8:33 N-AFS
    GRK: εἰς τὴν λίμνην καὶ ἀπεπνίγη
    NAS: the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.
    KJV: place into the lake, and
    INT: into the lake and were drowned
     
  10. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    theion: brimstone
    Original Word: θεῖον, ου, τό
    Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
    Transliteration: theion
    Phonetic Spelling: (thi'-on)
    Definition: brimstone

    Usage: brimstone, sulfur.

    HELPS Word-studies
    2303 theíon – properly, sulfur ("brimstone," i.e. smoky, burning rocks), i.e. sulphurous, named for the sulphur-smell left by lightning; (figuratively) the fire of heaven, bringing down God's judgment to display His awesome, unstoppable power.
     
  11. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    pur: fire
    Original Word: πῦρ, πυρός, τό
    Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
    Transliteration: pur
    Phonetic Spelling: (poor)
    Definition: fire
    Usage: fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire.
    HELPS Word-studies

    4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself

    God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.

    [This is illustrated by God's fire burning continuously at the entrance of the Tabernacle where the priests made sweet-savor offerings. Compare Lev 6:12,13 with 1 Pet 2:5,9.]
     
  12. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but here you refer to it as real fire and in the next two posts you emphasize figurative fire. Which do you believe?
     
  13. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    True, but we were discussing "hell fire". Believers are not subject to the "Lake of Fire". That is only for the wicked.
     
  14. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Blessings in Christ, gentlemen. Taking a break from the forums for a while. I'll make sure and update my responses for this thread when I get back.

    Have a wonderful Christmas,
    Hidden In Him
     
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  15. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Merry Christmas, my friend! May God richly bless you and yours in this time together.
     
  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Both, in their original uses means place where the dead reside. Very much conscious spirits.

    There are two chambers off of the bottomless pit. One is for the damned, originally created for the fallen angels. The second is paradise, in one verse called Abraham's bosom. It is where the spirits of the saints went and were kept until Christ ascended and took them with him.

    Bodies went to neither place.
     
  17. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Dead people are not conscious.

    Prove it.

    Fallen angels are in Tartarus, not sheol or hades.

    The "spirit" that ascends after death is simply the breath of life. It has no consciousness. The dead know nothing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
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