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Spiritual Israel

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by RND, Jun 3, 2007.

  1. Tyrel

    Tyrel New Member

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    How did the Jews begin?They began, of course, through a miraculous birth. The birth of Isaac, the birth of the nation of God's people.They had a righteous ancestry, a covenant with God, many prophets and Priests to speak from God to direct, teach, rebuke, and correct them. They had an outline for a religion which, when practiced, led them to complete the Shema Deuteronomy 6:4-6. God created them without any excuses. He gave them everything. They couldn't say 'who will go to heaven to bring us the word' because the Prophets were sent, nor could they say who will dive into the deep to get it for us' for the had the priests, the great mountains, to reveal the deeper meanings of things to the people, to teach and direct them.They had righteous ancestry, and thus were not at any 'disadvantageous position'. They, the ones who were spiritually Set, they fell. Is it possible that they act as an image of the spiritual Israel, which was revealed to be us all who love God in the Gospel? If that's the case, is it possible that God saving a remnant of his people at the end; those of his who have come back to him, is an act of Mercy exemplifying God's great love for Israel, and analogous to his great love for Spiritual Israel?I showed with scripture what Paul has taught, you showed with a faulty rational why I am wrong. Let us make two difficult things very clear; Racism isn't the issue here. Racism isn't always wrong, and can be right.What is racism? Racism is discriminating based on 'Race'. Race, here, is defined as a people from a different culture, religion, background and or appearance. Discrimination is acting in accordance with discernment. If I discern that one person is Asian, but do not act any differently {thus, I don't even recognize a difference}, then I am no different. If I recognize that one is a woman from a country/culture where a man speaking to her rather than her husband is a great insult to the husband and to the family, and act accordingly to be respectful, am I being racist? Yes, of course I am, and in that instance, it was the right thing for me to do. If I allow special rights, as a Canadian, to the Aboriginal peoples, am I being Racist? Yes, and rightly so.God is not so simple as you suppose. As I said though, the issue here is not racism. God made a covenant with the Jews in the Tenak. Would you say that the fact that he made a covenant like this with the Jews rather than the gentile nations, is racist? Well, in a sense it was, but it wasn't wrong of him. He, in fact, created them miraculously from Abraham for just that purpose. He promised many things in his covenant with Israel. One of them was that there would always be a remnant.The issue here is God's integrity. Will he hold his word, or will he not?I believe that God planned from the beginning to have this occur, and I believe he has planned in his providence that a remnant should return to him as he appears to them. Zechariah 12:10-13:1 {Don't click the link, look it up}.Read my previous post and look up those passages.~Shalom Elechem
     
  2. RND

    RND New Member

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    (Biblical Tetragramaton;11451)
    How did the Jews begin?They began, of course, through a miraculous birth. The birth of Isaac, the birth of the nation of God's people.
    Not to spilt hairs or anything but....Weren't the "Jews" direct decendants of the Tribe of Judah? Wasn't Isaac a Hebrew, son of the Chaldean Abram? Genesis 14:13, Genesis 15:7Just asking.
     
  3. Tyrel

    Tyrel New Member

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    (RND;11463)
    Not to spilt hairs or anything but....Weren't the "Jews" direct decendants of the Tribe of Judah? Wasn't Isaac a Hebrew, son of the Chaldean Abram? Genesis 14:13, Genesis 15:7Just asking.
    ......And what age was Sarah again?Recall that she was well along in years, and too old for a child. So how then did she bear a son? Ishmael had to go through Hagar, because she was unable to become pregnant. God's Providence brought Isaac, and he was born miraculously {foreshadowing Christ}.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...context=context
     
  4. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Yes.. it is again the mixing up of Israel with Judah... lets look further at true Judah...why have they become who they are .. those blessed to bring forth Torah and keep the word and the holy ordinances, laws and statutes ... it was because of the actions of Judah himself.. was Judah such a righteous man, no.. but lets lok at this life and the decisions he made .. the reason's God chose him and his decendants to live a blessed life on theri connection with Torah living.. Judah was the fourth son of Jacob and Leah.. what did he do that caught the eye of God for a blessing? He saved the lives of his brothers... first Joseph Genesis 37: 26-27 and then again he protected Benjamin in Genesis 43:3-10. This is only reason for him to be blessed.. this should be a lesson for us , for it how we treat our fellow brothers and sisters that God counts as goodness and therefore will bless us...during the years Judah was invaded by a group named the Kenites... who are not the descendants of Judah but are the sons of Cain.. they are the ones whom Chirst spoke to in John 8: 39-47.. they came by the capture of their predessors during the concure of Israel even during the time of David..1Chronicles 22:55 to become servants of the temple and with generations they became a part of the Levitcal priesthood, see what Jeremiah says of them in Jeremiah 8:9... in John 8:44 the Greek word for seed is 'sperma"... thats clear enough for all to see that it is a physical seed not a spiritual one... So now who is Israel today.. it is mostly the true tribe of Judah and the false tribe of Judah the good figs and the bad figs...and who will devise some way of deviding the good from the bad? Only Christ can and he has told us to leave it to the angels to do so in the parable of the tares... in Matthew 13: 25-40.. why had satan desired to plant his tares among Judah.. for God blessed Judah with the keeping or the Torah and satan loves to mess with the scriptures and he has used his children to do so...but those of us who speak against satan and refuse to let him have any place in our lives have learned to study the Word by using tools to go back to the original languages and see what is truly there in the scriptures...God's true blessing... and where is Israel ? who are Isaac's sons? they shortened it to SAXONS... and where are they? is tell in the Word the plan God had for them? Zechariah 10:7-9 gives us a hint about Ephraim and there is a passage I am searching for and will add that speaks of sending Israel to a land divided by rivers and that whall have unwalled cities and the men tall and clean shaven...which is a desciption of the US . I will continue to search and place it here and edit out these words when I do.. but it it there in the word perhaps N2 or denver or Kriss can help?.. bu the point is God never lost one soul of his chosen people.. never was one descendant if any part of Israel gone frrm his sight then or now.. He knows where they are and the very hairs on their head... and He had a plan for them whether they knew who they were or not..
     
  5. RND

    RND New Member

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    (Biblical Tetragramaton;11468)
    ......And what age was Sarah again?Recall that she was well along in years, and too old for a child. So how then did she bear a son? Ishmael had to go through Hagar, because she was unable to become pregnant. God's Providence brought Isaac, and he was born miraculously {foreshadowing Christ}.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...context=context
    I don't believe the facts regarding the "births" are in dispute. I believe it is the lineage that was brought up and is being discussed. Wasn't Sarah also a Chaldean woman? yes, indeed, I do believe she was.Genesis 11:31And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.Here's an interesting supposition then. If Abraham was Chaldean and Sarah was Chaldean, and Isaac was the product of Abraham and Isaac, then is it possible to consider Isaac a Chaldean as well?
     
  6. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    RND, what is it? this is the 2nd time you totally disregard my post? let me clear this up for you, Abrahm and Sarai became Abraham and Sarah.. recieving the blessing of God the convenant and they became know as the EBEROOS or those who crossed the river. Genesis 13:1 and Genesis 13:12 later the Hebrews.. the first ones to enter the convenant, have the blessing of God and be noted for their wealth and that everything they put their hand to was BLESSED ... when did he recieve this blessing? see Genesis 14:18 when the king of Salem came forth and blessed him... this Melchizadek... who I believe to be the same Yahsua later born of the virgin..the convenant was not made until the latter years of his life see Genesis 17: 4-10 and when the circumsicion was done they became a people not as before but became those of the convenant... those who would bring forth the Savior of the earth from their loin and lineage. Christ discusses in John 8:52-58 this time of the blessing by the King of Salem to the keepers of the treasury in the temple it begins in John 8: and the 20th verse but clicking on the link will give you the entire chapter... I am of the same covenant and the new one also, just stop treating me like chopped liver will you?
     
  7. RND

    RND New Member

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    (betchevy;11476)
    RND, what is it? this is the 2nd time you totally disregard my post?
    Um, could it be I was "disregarding" you because, in my last post on this topic, I was not addressing you?I'd guess that was it.
    let me clear this up for you, Abrahm and Sarai became Abraham and Sarah.. recieving the blessing of God the convenant and they became know as the EBEROOS or those who crossed the river. Genesis 13:1 and Genesis 13:12 later the Hebrews..
    Yes, I understand exactly what you are saying. Abram was a decendant of Eber. Which is what the word "hebrew" means, a decendant of Eber. See Genesis 11. The fact that Abram decended from Eber does not change the fact that Abram was a Chaldean.
    the first ones to enter the convenant, have the blessing of God and be noted for their wealth and that everything they put their hand to was BLESSED ...
    I believe the first covenant God established with men was through Noah.Genesis 6:18But with thee (Noah) will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
    when did he recieve this blessing? see Genesis 14:18 when the king of Salem came forth and blessed him... this Melchizadek... who I believe to be the same Yahsua later born of the virgin..the convenant was not made until the latter years of his life see Genesis 17: 4-10 and when the circumsicion was done they became a people not as before but became those of the convenant... those who would bring forth the Savior of the earth from their loin and lineage.
    Indeed. And I am an adopted member of that family, covenant and an heir to the promises that God gave Abraham. See Galatians 3:29
    Christ discusses in John 8:52-58 this time of the blessing by the King of Salem to the keepers of the treasury in the temple it begins in John 8: and the 20th verse but clicking on the link will give you the entire chapter...
    Um, I don't think that's a proper application of scripture. Jesus said to them, "Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham existed, Jesus was. The pious religious leaders were seeking to kill Jesus and Jesus clearly was explaining to them that even though they were "children of Abraham" they did not Abraham's works, i.e. faith.John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
     
  8. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    These are not private posts.. al are welcomed to partcipate and contribute... If you do not want to proceed by the rules, then take it elsewhere..Rearding John 8:If you read the entire chapter you will see the corelation... and you will also see the questions he answered . Re: heber, it means those who crossed the river...I answered your question as to why they were no longer Chaldeans... God changed who they were and their names... They became a new creatures... I did not say it was the first covenant.. its the covenant of Abraham...
     
  9. RND

    RND New Member

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    (betchevy;11480)
    These are not private posts.. al are welcomed to partcipate and contribute... If you do not want to proceed by the rules, then take it elsewhere..
    I was addressing the comments of another poster, not you. Can you understand that? The rules of this board don't require me to answer every thread or every poster, and that includes you. Climb down off of your high horse, your rudeness is astounding.
    Rearding John 8:If you read the entire chapter you will see the corelation... and you will also see the questions he answered .
    A correlation is different than the exact application you attempted to place on this scripture.
    Re: heber, it means those who crossed the river...
    Eber is where the root word where Hebrew developed. Eber or Heber do indeed mean "accross" but the word is always used in conjunction with an adjective. The land of the Chaldeans, which is where Abraham orignated, is east of or accross the Jordan. However, there is also a river in Babylon, the Chaldees, that you may have heard of that it likely Abraham crossed on his way to Egypt. The Euphraties.The word Hebrew is #5680 - Ibriy and it means specifically "an Eberite" (i.e. Hebrew) or a decendant of Eber.
    I answered your question as to why they were no longer Chaldeans... God changed who they were and their names...
    He didn't make them Jews when He changed their names, they were changed from the inside out, not outside in.
    They became a new creatures... I did not say it was the first covenant.. its the covenant of Abraham...
    You said:"the first ones to enter the convenant, have the blessing of God "I merely pointed out that this was not the "first" covenant God man with man nor was Abraham the first to have God's blessing.
     
  10. arenamistica

    arenamistica New Member

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    (RND;11218)
    Many people misunderstand and misinterpret the symbology of literal Israel with "spiritual" Israel of the New Testament." Hopefully in this thread there will be an awakening and understanding that one is not a Jew that is one outwardly, but a "spiritual Jew" in one inwardly, who's heart has been changed from the inside out, who's praise is of God and not men.Who is Israel? Who is the Church?
    I am sooooo glad that you pointed out this distinction! There are many many people who are not operating in God's Spirit (Holy Ghost), thereby allowing room for the blatant "misinterpretation" of scripture!With Love,Arena
     
  11. RND

    RND New Member

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    (arenamistica;11502)
    I am sooooo glad that you pointed out this distinction! There are many many people who are not operating in God's Spirit (Holy Ghost), thereby allowing room for the blatant "misinterpretation" of scripture!With Love,Arena
    Hey you are most welcome! I was just borrowing the truth from the Lords Word! Praise God! Glad you found it a blessing!
     
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