Spiritual Tyranny

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear W,

I do read what you write but I also respond to what you are actually saying. The leadership of the normative church have become little Pharaohs that hold God's people hostage for their own gain. They do not allow the Holy Spirit to lead His people. You know this but you refuse to admit this. You are trying to defend something that is indefensible.

I think the problem you are having with the points that are being made is that you still believe that what ministers do is good in the sight of God. Perhaps you do not realize the depth of the depravity that constitutes many of the leadership of the churches. Sometimes you just have to throw off the yoke of those who refuse to follow God like John Knox did. Confrontation comes because people will not listen to reason. When the clergy get so entrenched in their error that they will not let God lead his people they must go.

Many ministers are idolatrous kinds and religious leaders who reject the Messiah because they will not follow the Spirit that was in the Messiah reconciling the world to God. The point I am making is that when leaders will not listen to the Holy Spirit and allow their congregations to do the same they become unprofitable servants and should not be listened too.

If you are truly in the ministry you know exactly what I am talking about.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Wormwood]

I refuse to engage in this discussion further. I am weary of those who delight in nitpicking and bashing those who serve the church and have committed their lives to Scripture and building the body of Christ. Those who see years of prayerfully memorizing, examining and writing about Scripture as merely a meaningless diploma or piece of paper display their own ignorance. Pointing to some bad apples is no justification to the blanket condemnations and accusations from the both of you. This discussion is the equivalent of a construction worker bashing medicine because of a few bad doctors and saying a medical degree is a worthless piece of paper. Personally I believe The Lord speaks predominately through his word, but many lack the discipline and humility to study it contextually, linguistically and theologically so they can properly live it out. They would rather justify their own carnal passions and gut and claim they move by the Spirit. I think this is nothing more than a spirit of divisiveness that clearly resembles nothing of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit. Because I am in ministry I do know exactly what is being talked about. It's ministers that Jesus died for and who try their best to serve you and the church of Jesus and receive nothing but criticism and attack from their own. If someone criticized your hours of work this way each week and knit picked your every word and act you'd think differently. What about doing to others what u would have done for you. Only in the church do we shoot our wounded. And in this day where authority is despised and leaders made targets for rabid criticism, ministers tend to be the most wounded of all. No wonder why most ministers leave the ministry in less than three years....

 

[domenic]

Justin,

Justin,
May the Living God give you strength to follow the path you see. I have loved God since I was a child. Seventeen years ago I walked out into the light, alone before the Living God. What you say of those leading Gods flock is correct. Serve God alone without a religion. Without a church. Feed the sheep Gods words from the scriptures as living words, not names and numbers. Present the truth as man can reason on it. Listen to the sheep. Learn to understand them. It is our service to God when in contact with people, God reads their hearts.
You speak of leaders who tell lies. I tell you, there is not one religion free of false major doctrines…lies. It will not change. The Nations will destroy religion over night, because they are not from God. You will find standing alone hard at Times. Look up into the sky…we are never alone. But yet it feels like we are. Serve God as best you can, one on one, to those who give ear to Gods word.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This discussion is the equivalent of a construction worker bashing medicine because of a few bad doctors and saying a medical degree is a worthless piece of paper.

This comment just shows an ingrained arrogance typical of those who place inordinate value in the positions that society confers. A diploma will buy you respect in the world, but not in the kingdom of GOD. And it is more than just a few bad apples; it's a systemic problem. You don't realize how much of a Pharisee you sound like.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear Wormwood,

You want people to sympathize with ministers because they have spent a lot of time studying scripture? Or should we give them a pass because they have spent much time praying? Was it not John the Baptist that charged the pharisees to bring forth fruits meet with repentance? If the ministers are wrong I don't care how much study and prayer they have devoted to being wrong...I want them to humble themselves, change, and do what is right.

Minsters are wounded because they refuse to get right with God and so the lives they lead don't work. They battle at living a lie and then want us to pity them when the lie they try to live does not work. Instead of ceasing to dig when they find themselves in a hole they simply dig harder and tell us to do the same. I am not saying that ministers and not hurt but I am saying it is a hurt largely of their own making. Most people cannot stand living a lie for more than three years and either burn out or leave when they have to admit that what they are doing does not work.

I know I am being rather direct and to the point on the things I say to you. However, my aim is not to hurt you but rather to cause you to open your eyes and wake up to the truth. If you work hard, pray long, and believe in the wrong things all the effort that you expend does not profit you nor your flock. What you need to consider doing is listening to the still small voice of the Holy Spirit rather than the dogma you have received. God deals with leaders patiently because He loves His sheep. God is different than you may have realized and I would guess that you may have come across some things recently or may come across some things soon that has or will rock your theological world. Perhaps you may consider trusting the Holy Spirit more than your own mind this time around and do what He is leading you to do.

You know, it is not that we are ignorant and you are intelligent. All men, who name Jesus as their Lord and Savior and are baptized in the Holy Ghost, are gifted in that they have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. That same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead is in us reconciling the world to God. We are unlearned men and women but we have been with Jesus. It is the Spirit that makes us more than we can be by ourselves. Even a donkey can have better sense than a prophet when God speaks through its mouth. If you see us as simply laymen then you are missing the Spirit that speaks out of our mouths too. Perhaps God led you here to speak to you because where you come from people cannot do so. Maybe you have been asking God what is wrong and this is His answer.

Every branch that bears fruit is eventually pruned, not to punish it but to bring forth more fruit. We all naturally stop bearing fruit if God does not do this to us periodically. If you really are a humble as you say then consider what we have said and pick from it the things that may be true and apply to you and your ministry. Allow God to speak to you through what I have written even if you consider me to be a donkey because it might prove to be of benefit if you do in the immediate future.

Blessings

Justin

 

[Wormwood]

Justin,

You don't know me. How can you correct and rebuke me for anything? How can you claim I don't know the truth and need to "wake up?" I am commenting on your criticisms and you are commenting on my character and heart. You may call it divine or Spirit-led ESP, but to me its just presumption and error.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear W,

I have spoken about the ministry in general and you have stated that you are a minister. I am speaking to you as a minister. There is a good chance I am not far off the mark. If you are not a minister then very little of what I have written applies to you. ESP? What ever happened to being led of the Spirit? Or don't you believe in that?

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Wormwood]

There's a good chance you are off the mark. (And you are). The ESP comment had to do with another post of yours concerning your teaching of how the Spirit moves.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear W,

The Holy Spirit is not ESP. I don't know how you have gotten your wires crossed on this. God speaks to His sheep and His sheep know His voice. It is not more complicated than that.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Wormwood]

What I am saying is that if God lifts you up, in the Spirit, and takes you to a place where you witness to a person who is asking about God then don't become overly concerned just because it seems similar to astral projection. If you know the thoughts of someone you are witnessing to don't automatically assume that you operating ESP.

Justin,

This is the quote to which I am referring. Clearly you feel that being Spirit-led means you can have the power to know someone else's thoughts. My point was that you seem to infer a lot about me in your judgments and I am arguing that perhaps you do not have Extra Sensory Perception about me that is Spirit empowered. Perhaps you are just wrong about me.

Also, that verse where Jesus says, "My sheep hear my voice..." is not about your personal subjective impressions about what God is telling you. Jesus said this in the context of those who were following him as the Messiah and those who were rejecting him as the Messiah. This is not about a subjective inner voice but is about whether or not people hear the words of Jesus and believe they are the words of God. I do believe this...I am one of his sheep...I do hear his voice and follow him as a result. Not a subjective inner voice that makes me judge others but a very clear word from Jesus that tells me that his words are life and I need him to have a relationship with the Father.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear W,

I freely admit that what I say might be off the mark. Perhaps you are very Spirit led and have a good hear towards God and are not like some that are in the ministry. I am not saying you, in particular, are bad but that the group of people that you have said that you are part of are, in the main, not allowing God's people to hear His voice or do His will.

Actually, now that I think on things, I have come across overly harsh towards you. I apologize for that. You are correct, I do not know you, and stereotyping you is not proper. I suppose I have seen so much of the underside of the church that I forget that not everyone that is a part of it is necessarily corrupt.

I think you will understand that I believe it is all about hearing the still small voice of the Holy Spirit. The inner voice I speak about is the voice of God. If we are filled with the Holy Spirit that voice is His voice. He speaks from within us simply because He is in us. I don't like fanaticism any more than the next person. I understand that many are simply led around by their feelings and call it God. I am not talking about that sort of excess God's original intent was to speak even the Ten Commandments to His people but because of fear they could not hear Him.

The word of God is, of course true in all aspects. However, what people often times call the word of God is just their approximation of it (their doctrine.) I don't have a problem with approximations but I do object to doctrine which becomes so solidified it because dogma. Unfortunately, as I have examined even the basic dogmas of a normative church it seems that many are either partially or wholly in error. Problems is, that without allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal things to them, the leadership of His church has not way to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So, in conclusion I will back off and keep my comments about the ministry more general in nature and not speak to you personally.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Wormwood]

Justin,

I appreciate the apology. I agree with you that there certainly are bad ministers and bad doctrines. I do not condone those who abuse their position or mishandle the Word of God. However, I also know many ministers and see many have incredible hearts for God. I think our aim should be to assume the best of all and confront specifics when we see sin or abuse taking place.

Thanks again for the kind response.

 

[Joseph77]

Spiritual Tyranny

“Those who remain silent as spiritual tyranny grows become the foot soldiers of their own destruction.”​

Justin Mangonel​

Related (spiritual and medical - the tyranny is from the same source) >>

I believe this is true >

Today many of the doctors are not permitted by laws made by the drug establishment to do what they know to do to help a person, and therefore, a patient suffers much longer because of these laws of tyr-anny.

I have been told many times by doctors:
"I have to do certain things although I knew it to be wrong. Everything I do is censored."

"Unless I sell a certain amount of drugs each month I will not be permitted to use the hospitals."

"Unless I send so many patients of mine to the hospital I will be restricted from using the hospital at all."

Whenever there are rules, laws, regulations and union laws that put such restrictions on a medical doctor then we have come to the place that we are paying doctors to keep us sick rather than to get us well.

 

[Joseph77]

I suppose I have seen so much of the underside of the church that I forget that not everyone that is a part of it is necessarily corrupt.

Yes, thankfully, or hopefully, by testing, not everyone is corrupt.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP, only, I agree 100% and there is a couple of scriptures sum up what you're saying, Isaiah 66:4 "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not".
notice the key word, "Their", meaning MAN MADE.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
notice the separation again, "they" and "Them" man Made.

only one piece of advice. in trying times, Ephesians 6:10 "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:14 "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Ephesians 6:15 "And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Ephesians 6:16 "Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Ephesians 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Ephesians 6:18 "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

PICJAG

 

[amadeus]

@Justin Mangonel
@HeRoseFromTheDead
@Wormwood

Related to the OP and subsequent posts consider that while God has certainly given ministers as per:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" Eph 4:11-12

When a minister who really was given [sent] to us by God fails to work properly in his called purpose, then remember also this:

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." I Tim 5:17

Should we extend double honor, or any honor, continuously, to one who works Not in the Word and Doctrine of God following rather his own ways and/or the ways of his own leaders?

Give God the glory!